WP: U.S. airstrike that killed American teen in Yemen raises legal, ethical questions (graphic?)

[Poll_Blind]

From http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-airstrike-that-killed-american-teen-in-yemen-raises-legal-ethical-questions/2011/10/20/gIQAdvUY7L_story.html">Washington Post:

One week after a U.S. military airstrike killed a 16-year-old American citizen in Yemen, no one in the Obama administration, Pentagon or Congress has taken responsibility for his death, or even publicly acknowledged that it happened.

The absence of official accountability for the demise of Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, a Denver native and the son of an al-Qaeda member, deepens the legal and ethical murkiness of the Obama administration’s campaign to kill alleged enemies of the state outside of traditional war zones.

Unlike the secretive U.S. airstrikes that have killed hundreds of foreigners in Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen, this case involved an American teenager. He was killed by the U.S. military in a country with which Washington is not at war.

Officials throughout the U.S. government, however, have refused to answer questions for the record about how or why Awlaki was killed Oct. 14 in a remote part of Yemen, along with eight other people.

Much more at the link- it's a two-page article and the first four paragraphs don't do it justice. Really. Read the full article. Among other things, the article attempts to delve into the question of whether a 16-year old American citizen was intentionally targeted for assassination and, if so, why? It also raises the question- if an American citizen who was killed accidentally, why has there been no investigation?

So far, nobody's talking. At least not without the promise of anonymity.

Except Nasser al-Awlaki, the boy's grandfather and one-time Yemeni agriculture minister, who gave several interviews proclaiming the innocence of his grandson and also releasing Abdulrahman al-Awlaki's http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/documents/abdulrahman-al-awlaki-birth-certificate.html">birth certificate, showing he had just turned 16 and was not in his 20's as the US government had claimed.

"If the government is going to be firing Predator missiles at American citizens, surely the American public has a right to know who’s being targeted, and why,"
-Jameel Jaffer, American Civil Liberties Union



PB

[Tx4obama]

1. The drone targeted ADULT TERRORISTS that were part of Al Qaeda.

The USA probably didn't know that the kid was here.

If the kid wasn't hanging out with the Al Qaeda terrorists then he wouldn't have been there when the drone arrived to take out the bad guys.

And if Al Qaeda had not declared war on the USA they would not be being targeted.

The blame lies at the feet of Al Qaeda.

[EFerrari]

5. What a bunch of crap.

You don't know who this AMERICAN CITIZEN was with when he was KILLED.

And if the Pentagon doesn't know who its drones are killing, it needs to stop using them because this is murder.

[emilyg]

8. +100

[Tx4obama]

15. Google is your friend.

Go do a search.

The names of some of the terrorists were reported all over the net when the drone attack story first came out.

There were like 7-9 folks killed in that drone attack - it was the ADULT TERRORISTS that were targeted.

Everyone seems to be acting like the 'kid' was targeted and that is NOT true.

[EFerrari]

21. Google is apparently not your friend.

Tell me how many of the dead were the kids at the cookout. Can you?

[reggie the dog]

128. i thought the usa was against summary executions...

what the hell are we doing in Yemen? No debate in Congress, no declaration of war, just go blow people up in Yemen, yet do nothing to the leaders of Yemen killing people in Sa'na for protesting. How do we know these "terrorists" had anything against the USA? perhaps they were simply anti government, anti YEMENI government

shit, how many of us would be "terrorists" if we lived in Yemen and had to live under the dictatorship?

most "islamic terrorists" want revolution in their lands, and have nothing against the usa. Al Quieda (the struggle) is not a top down organization, it is more comparable to the hells angels in that they all have similar goals (revolution in the homeland) and are lose knit friends who support each other when they can, but not following a general or something. Most people in the groups labeled as Al Quieda could give a fuck about the USA (unless say the USA is keeping a dictator in their homeland propped up).

[Angry Dragon]

143. So it is okay if one of your family memebers is killed because they were

in the wrong place at the wrong time??

[Kurmudgeon]

127. The real crap is you don't know either.

If you don't want to put your family at risk, don't be a terrorist.
I'm sorry the boy got killed, but who knows, he could have been the next cheerleader calling for the death of the West, the US or anyone else like that. Either way, if "dad" hadn't been what he was, what happened to his son wouldn't have happened.
I wonder if they danced in celebration on 9/11?

[iamthebandfanman]

7. yep

blame the under age victim for his lack of judgement.

thatll make sense.

[Tx4obama]

25. No one is blaming the kid. But the blame does not lie with Obama or the USA

The blame lies at the feet of his father - the person that took him to Yemen and had him in the company of the Al Qaeda members - and the blame also lies with all the Al Qaeda members there what declared war on The USA.

Anwar al-Awlaki knew that Al Qaeda was being targeted, so he should not have put his son in danger.

[Name removed]

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[EFerrari]

36. How do you know he was in the company of Al Qaida

and not just a group of teenagers cooking out on a nice night? Do you have a link? Thanks.

[Tx4obama]

47. A fucking cookout in Yemen with a bunch of Al Qaeda members? LOL

SNIP

Yemen's al Qaeda branch has claimed responsibility for dispatching the would-be suicide bomber who failed to blow up a Detroit-bound flight in December 2009 with explosives sewn into his underwear.

Al-Bana is described by a Yemeni official who spoke to Reuters as one of the most dangerous militants in Yemen.

The tribal elders, who spoke Saturday on condition of anonymity because they feared reprisals, said four other members of the al-Awlaki clan and another local militant were also killed in the same drone attack. There was no immediate confirmation of the younger al-Awlaki's death from Yemeni authorities.

SNIP

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/15/501364/main20120883.shtml

[Name removed]

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[indepat]

140. Surely the US regrets the extensive collateral damage inflicted (innocents killed or maimed and

infrastructure destroyed) as it pursues its exclusive franchise to hunt down and kill anyone designated or thought to be a terraist wherever in the world they might be. While the US is mindful of its exclusive franchise to do so and will always be diligent to exercise this exclusive franchise judiciously, exercise it it will. :patriot:

[kas125]

20. This is at least the third time you've asserted that he was with

"ADULT TERRORISTS." I asked you last night for links to prove your assertion, but of course, you ignored that and you just keep repeating the same thing over and over. So, show us the proof, or at least a link to an article that says he was hanging out with adult terrorists and wasn't barbequing with his cousin like his relatives claim he was.

[EFerrari]

27. And, just to be clear, even if he was in the bathtub with 10 members of Al Qaida,

he was not charged with a crime before the Pentagon decided to kill him.

[Name removed]

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[Poll_Blind]

28. Is the narrative you've constructed based on anything more than what you hope was the case?

:shrug:

PB

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. That don't fly in the US when the cops come into a drug

house during a raid... take my word on this , there are many kids taken by child protective services every month.

So how exactly is this going to fly with this?

Of course this goes into ethics and actual legal standards... which do degrade in closing societies. Just because an R does it does not mean it is wrong, while a D it is right... ok. Them are situational ethics that are quite nasty.

[Poll_Blind]

134. "Closing societies" What a phrase. It's accurate, but it doesn't make the...

...line any less chilling. Very true. I also agree about the situational ethics, especially ones may appear to benefit us in the short term, politically, but which set a dangerous precedent which could one day be used against us. In country.

PB

[MADem]

81. That's my understanding as well.

The kid was with his "Uncle" -- the terrorist buddy of his dad -- at the time of the attack, but the kid was not the target. The "uncle" was.

[malaise]

123. Are you fugging serious? n/t

[Angry Dragon]

142. The USA declared war on the Middle East long before they

retaliated

Go back to 1953 and read a little history

[NYC_SKP]

2. You say this poor lad was the son of an al-Qaeda member?

That's a pity, but al-Qaeda is not a friendly group to us, I don't know that it was a smart thing for any 16 year old US citizen to be in proximity of an al-Qaeda member on foreign soil.

I'm not feeling this one as an enormous issue.

:shrug:

[Swede]

4. Apparently the strike ruined a perfectly good barbecue.

Not sure if grilling with al-qaeda is too smart.

[EFerrari]

11. How do you know who he was grilling with?

[Tx4obama]

13. He was the son of Anwar al-Awlaki, the terrorist that was killed Sept 30th

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

[EFerrari]

19. So what?

[Tx4obama]

22. I was responding to someone that was asked a question.

You got a problem with that?

[EFerrari]

24. Could either of you please show how you know who this kid was with

when he was killed by the Pentagon?

Thanks.

[MADem]

97. It's in the article at the OP. Apparently sourced by two people, per the article. NT

[whatchamacallit]

39. Did he even have a choice whether or not he was there?

Do you even give a fuck?

[chill_wind]

66. What exactly was the kid's crime again?

[Poll_Blind]

137. Good question! nt

PB

[Name removed]

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[reggie the dog]

129. what would the charge be against the kid?

associating with a member of a terrorist group? do you get the death penalty for that in the usa? you at least get a trial don't you?

and how in the fuck do we have the right to be in Yemen? oh right... we prop up the dictator who has been busy killing people for protesting against their dictatorship. Yemen has a poverty rate around 50% from what i have read and over 30% unemployment. yet the leaders solve protests by killing the people, and the usa is their ally, so, in reality, people in Yemen are justified to attack the usa as we keep their dictator in place with aid.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

135. Then you lack the humanity and judgment to be a moderator

Yes, I'm serious.

[Union Scribe]

3. They'll kill whoever they damn well please

and with both right-wing and faux-left warhawks jizzing themselves with every bomb blast, no one's going to stop it.

[Name removed]

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[Union Scribe]

12. Yeah I love the "it's the kid's fault for being near their parent" defense.

I imagine it's the same one used by every drive-by shooter who's hit a bystander.

[NYC_SKP]

14. In Yemen....

It wasn't in Denver.

Yemen isn't a safe place to be, sorry for the kid and for anyone who is killed by anyone, but the protections we expect in the US don't exist in the middle east.

Thinking they do is dangerous.

[Name removed]

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[Poll_Blind]

18. Just to clarify- he was killed separately by another $58,000 Hellfire missile. nt

PB

[NYC_SKP]

26. Thanks for the clarification, Poll_Blind.

I stand by my opinion that a 16-year old takes his own life into his hands for traveling to the middle east.

It's most unfortunate, it really is, but when not on US soil things are dangerous for anyone, much less relative of sworn enemies of the state.

The whole thing stinks, of course.

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

34. By that logic I'd better tell my nieces to STAY in the US

and never leave the fatherland... serious...

Legal standards do apply... both NATIONAL and INTERNATIONAL...

Of course there is this thing called ethics, but let's not even go there.

There are days I no longer recognize the fatherland. It ain't the country I swore allegiance to... it snapped and not in a good way.

[NYC_SKP]

61. They shouldn't go to Yemen, they shouldn't go to Syria, and about two dozen other countries (nt).

[EFerrari]

67. Does the State Department put out a list of countries we should avoid

in order not to be killed by our government?

[NYC_SKP]

71. Why, yes they do. Here is the list from the state department.

Of course the "in order not to be killed by our government" part isn't mentioned.

Current Travel Warnings:

Travel Warnings are issued when long-term, protracted conditions that make a country dangerous or unstable lead the State Department to recommend that Americans avoid or consider the risk of travel to that country. A Travel Warning is also issued when the U.S. Government's ability to assist American citizens is constrained due to the closure of an embassy or consulate or because of a drawdown of its staff. The countries listed below meet those criteria.

Iran 10/21/2011
Nigeria 10/13/2011
Lebanon 10/12/2011
Mauritania 10/12/2011
Mali 10/04/2011
Syria 09/30/2011
Libya 09/22/2011
Algeria 09/19/2011
Iraq 09/13/2011
Yemen 09/02/2011
Somalia 08/19/2011
Chad 08/16/2011
Haiti 08/08/2011
Pakistan 08/08/2011
Niger 08/05/2011
Saudi Arabia 08/05/2011
Central African Republic 07/28/2011
Colombia 07/22/2011
Congo, Democratic Republic of the 07/19/2011
Republic of South Sudan 07/12/2011
Israel, the West Bank and Gaza 06/22/2011
Sudan 06/22/2011
Cote d'Ivoire 06/16/2011
Philippines 06/14/2011
Burundi 06/01/2011
Uzbekistan 04/25/2011
Mexico 04/22/2011
Afghanistan 03/08/2011
Eritrea 02/27/2011
Nepal 01/12/2011
Kenya 12/28/2010
Guinea 12/03/2010
Korea, Democratic People's Republic of 08/27/2010

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_1764.html


:patriot:

[EFerrari]

73. But that is what we're talking about, being killed by our government.

Maybe they need to start putting out a new list for us.

[NYC_SKP]

77. That's the same list. We have at least some responsibility for the danger in every country listed.

Every single one. The fact that the US uses more than 20% of the world's energy, creates more than 20% of the world's waste, and has a military budget equal to all other countries combined...

...makes that pretty clear.

That list of dangerous countries- we helped make them so.

:patriot:

[Union Scribe]

79. That's to protect us from people there, not from being murdered by our government.

Really, your logic is a stone's throw from, "she shouldn't have been wearing that skirt."

[Tatiana]

70. Are you sure he had a choice in the matter? He was an underage 16 year old kid.

He was 16. You can argue that some people are mature for 16, but in the eyes of the law, he was still a child. Still young enough to be taken into our child protective services.

The bloodthirst of late is very disturbing.

This mentality is sure to come back to haunt us.

[whatchamacallit]

99. You're not likely to get a meaningful response

The "It was the kid's own damn fault!" rationale is based on the assumption (projection) that he was acting completely of his own volition.

[Name removed]

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[NYC_SKP]

48. Re-read my post.

If some part of it is inaccurate, I'll be the first to remove it.

Travel to Yemen, not a safe thing to do, not for anyone.

I didn't make it that way...

[Arctic Dave]

55. Traveling to or being in Yemen is not in itself dangerous.

The US firing missiles and killing people makes it dangerous.

[MADem]

82. Really? I know some guys who served in USS COLE who would disagree with you. NT

[Arctic Dave]

85. Really?

What was a military ship doing there? Where they handing out candies?

[MADem]

86. They were doing a very nefarious thing.

They were REFUELING. They paid for their fuel, too.

It was a quick in-and-out. They were there for a few hours on a gas-n-go turnaround.

:eyes:

[Arctic Dave]

88. What were they doing there? Hanging out?

The US sent them there to gas up?

[MADem]

89. They were deployed to the Gulf. They were not stationed in Yemen.

The only reason they went there was to refuel. We had absolutely ZERO assets in Yemen then. No bases, no piers, no nothing.

It was a commercial transaction, arranged by a civilian husbanding agent.

You do know we have assets in the Gulf, don't you? Bahrain? We've had a naval base there for eons. Completely unrelated to Yemen, too.

:eyes:

[Arctic Dave]

91. Yeah. Been there.

We were there in a military show of force, escort oil tankers (earnest goodwill mission) and to herass the soviet fleet stationed in the gulf. How about you? Do you know the name of the "white whale"?


You do realize being in the military makes you a military target don't you?

[MADem]

95. And you're suggesting that this makes it "OK?" Come on.

We were not at war when the COLE was bombed. Clinton was President. His State Department was working on rapproachement with Yemen in a big way, and the refueling stops were part of that effort.

I think the families of these people would disagree with your "military target" premise, particularly at that time in our history:

Chief Petty Officer Richard Costelow, Morrisville, Pennsylvania.

Signalman Seaman Recruit Cheron Luis Gunn, Rex, Georgia.

Seaman James Rodrick McDaniels, Norfolk, Virginia.

Seaman Recruit Lakiba Nicole Palmer, San Diego, California.

Operations Specialist 2nd Class Timothy Lamont Saunders, Ringgold, Virginia.

Ensign Andrew Triplett, Macon, Mississippi.

Seaman Apprentice Craig Bryan Wibberley, Williamsport, Maryland.

Hull Maintenance Technician 3rd Class, Kenneth Eugene Clodfelter, Mechanicsville, Virginia.

Mess Management Specialist Seaman Lakeina Monique Francis, Woodleaf, North Carolina.

Information Systems Technician Seaman Timothy Lee Gauna, Rice, Texas

Engineman 2nd Class Mark Ian Nieto, Fond du Lac, Wisconsin.

Electronics Warfare Technician 3rd Class Ronald Scott Owens, Vero Beach, Florida.

Engineman Fireman Joshua Langdon Parlett, Churchville, Maryland.

Fireman Apprentice Patrick Howard Roy, Cornwall on Hudson, New York.

Electronics Warfare Technician 2nd Class Kevin Shawn Rux, Portland, North Dakota.

Mess Management Specialist 3rd Class Ronchester Mananga Santiago, Kingsville, Texas

Fireman Gary Graham Swenchonis Jr., Rockport, Texas

That's just the dead. 39 others were wounded, some seriously.



Are you talking about the former "Great White Ghost of the Arabian Coast?" She got moved out of there some time ago. Decommed about six years ago and used for Naval target practice shortly thereafter. She's at the bottom of the sea now.

[Arctic Dave]

98. Uh, you put on a military uniform you become a military target.

That's the way it works.

As for the year of when it happened, you do understand that people were bombing stuff and killing people all through that region during the eighties and nineties. This wasn't some unexpected act.

[MADem]

100. No, that's not the way it works, and this was an unexpected act.

I lived through it. but thanks for playing.

[Arctic Dave]

102. That's some fantasy you have going on.

It was only unexpected if you weren't paying attention for the two preceding decades.

[MADem]

103. Think what you'd like. NT

[EFerrari]

50. Isn't that the biggest horror of 9/11, that Al Qaida killed innocent people

who were just going about their business.

Isn't that why we called them monsters and vowed never to forget what they did?

[chill_wind]

72. Incredibly bitterly ironic, isn't it? You'd think

in the last 10 years we'd have killed, tortured, incinerated, bombed or otherwise dismembered enough men, women, children, infants by now in how many countries to have the bloodlust for revenge reasonably sated.

:puke: :puke:

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[EFerrari]

23. His father was already dead when this kid was killed.

[whatchamacallit]

43. ...

fuck it, pointless.

[Name removed]

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[snot]

6. It is unconstitutional to deprive a US citizen of life without due process of law.

In my view, we should be expanding these rights to all humans, rather than shrinking them to exclude US citizens someone in the gummint decides to call a "terrorist."

[EFerrari]

10. So the Pentagon killed a bunch of teenagers at a cookout.

It's not an enormous deal, they were all probably terrorists anyway.
:sarcasm:

[closeupready]

30. Or even if not terrorists, they likely WOULD have been.

:sarcasm:

[Tx4obama]

53. Where is the proof they were only teenagers at a cook-out?

Or proof there was even any cooking going on?

The only place I've seen that 'BS' is from his family.

What the hell do you think they are going to say?

You don't expect them to admit that Al Qaeda was target by the drone?

If you want to believe the family of an Al Qaeda member then that is your right to do so,
but that sounds a bit crazy to me.

[EFerrari]

56. Crazy to think teenagers go out on nice nights and cook out?

Really?

Not to mention, we used to have this principle here called the presumption of innocence.

But maybe you have access to this kid's crimanal record that you can share with us. Or maybe you can post a list of this kid's involvement with Al Qaida actions. Or even, what the Pentagon claims he was doing at the time he was killed.

[Name removed]

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[DisgustipatedinCA]

136. You choose to believe the Pentagon. They need people like you to believe

You've never seen "BS" from the Pentagon? Not surprising. And you're supposed to be on the thoughtful side of the aisle? We're in big trouble.

[Angry Dragon]

141. And how do you know it is BS??

You have links into the administration??

[Tx4obama]

32. So, you would volunteer to go into the Al Qaeda compound to arrest them and bring them out? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. So you are ok with killing a minor

who was NOT with his father, on a separate strike? Is that what you are saying?

If Bush did it you'd be screaming bloody murder... sorry if my ethics are not that situational.

[Tx4obama]

42. If you're in Yemen and hanging out with Al Qaeda then there's always a chance

a bomb is going to get you.

I don't understand why folks are acting like we shouldn't be targeting Al Qaeda.

That particular group of Al Qaeda in Yemen has/had some of the most dangerous terrorists/militants.

SNIP

Yemen's al Qaeda branch has claimed responsibility for dispatching the would-be suicide bomber who failed to blow up a Detroit-bound flight in December 2009 with explosives sewn into his underwear.

Al-Bana is described by a Yemeni official who spoke to Reuters as one of the most dangerous militants in Yemen.

The tribal elders, who spoke Saturday on condition of anonymity because they feared reprisals, said four other members of the al-Awlaki clan and another local militant were also killed in the same drone attack. There was no immediate confirmation of the younger al-Awlaki's death from Yemeni authorities.

SNIP

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/15/501364/main20120883.shtml


p.s. I am ANTI-alQaeda and I will not apologize for being so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Here

There are times I no longer recognize this country. there are things that our leaders have done that should churn your stomach... but they are defended since a DEMOCRAT gave the order. It seems to me that situational ethics are now partisan... and it is part of the process of closing a society, where even what was wrong oh even ten years ago, it's ok today. Something did snap on 9.11... and has led to a level of fear that allows people to justify things that they would not have ten year ago.

Those of us who ever bothered readying the PNAC plan will have to admit... they succeeded... Strengthening American Defenses also had this as part of it's transformational plan. This plan to change the country into something it wasn't has succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

The Banality of Evil is actually instructive of where we are... that is all. I got no idea what will snap the American people out of that fear induced paranoia and fear of everything back into a moral people again. Quite simply all can be justified in the mame of protecting the fatherland from that nebulous terrorist... we are no longer the nation of Nuremberg... and that is through the looking glass...

Nadin

PS perhaps OWS will help to snap us back out from this... cancer. But it is high time we remove it from our psyche... or the world of 1984 will be more prophecy than fiction.

[Name removed]

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[wellst0nev0ter]

37. Freedom Isn't Free (n/t)

[EFerrari]

38. Why would anyone arrest this kid? What is he wanted for?

Do you have a link? Thanks.

[Tx4obama]

54. The drones targeted the TERRORISTS and MILITANTS they were there ...

they were not targeting 'kids'.

Why are you supporting Al Qaeda over The USA?

Didn't you hear that Al Qaeda declared war on The United States of America?

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Somehow I doubt she supports AQ over the US

but since you raised that in such a familiar pattern... I will give you my pat answer when somebody goes there.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/enlistment.pdf

Go on, print it and take it to your closest office. I personally recommend infantry or medic. They both will mostly guarantee facing the enemy at some point... if you can hack it, specops would be best.

For the record hubby was there, and done that, and I did somewhere else... But that is the kind of tough talk that usually has me give RWers that particular form. I even offer to drive them.

[EFerrari]

59. Can you please post your evidence that this child was Al Qaida?

Thank you.

[Name removed]

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[sabrina 1]

45. For what? What did he do? Why would anyone be arresting

him when there were no charges against him? Did he have a record, a warrant?

Is there a line somewhere, that you would not cross to try to excuse these killings of American citizens? A five-year-old? Six? Because you know we have killed babies with those drones, toddlers and other innocents. Was it their fault for being in the ME with their families? Should they have moved? I suppose if those children HAD moved they would be alive. Stupid kids.

[polly7]

49. Why, what did that teen do to be arrested?

It's strange, Canadians and U.S. troops have been dying for years fighting the Taliban and AQ .......... yet now, Libya's new top military guy was once considered so dangerous he was caught, renditioned and reportedly tortured. From terrorist to misunderstood freedom-fighter - to CIA backed rebel. Yet this kid gets murdered for being at a cookout. Wth??

[Tx4obama]

60. They were NOT targeting kids. The drone targeted the TERRORIST and the Militants!

And they only folks that ever said there was a cookout was his family in the USA they were NOT in Yemen !!!

I can't believe that folks are now supporting the most dangerous group of Al Qaeda in Yemen.

So, folks want all the bad asses to be left alone so they can bomb us ???

What the fuck! :crazy:

[EFerrari]

63. Could you please post your evidence that this kid was involved with Al Qaida?

Thanks.

[Poll_Blind]

74. Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall seeing any evidence provided despite your repeated requests.

Yours would seem to be a fairly straightforward request, IMO.

:shrug:

PB

[chill_wind]

76. Exactly. Especially when none is at all forthcoming from even the government

even when pressed. Which is the point of the OP. That the government really, really doesn't want to explain about having killed this kid.

[MADem]

83. Why in hell are you being deliberately obtuse? No one said the kid was "involved with AQ"

In fact, if you bothered to read the fucking article, you'd find the answer you are looking for.

Two U.S. officials said the intended target of the Oct. 14 airstrike was Ibrahim al-Banna, an Egyptian who was a senior operative in Yemen’s al-Qaeda affiliate.

[Bonobo]

132. How do you knot they were not targeting the kid?

Oh, that's right. You don't.

You're just improvising and trying on a set of justifications to see how they feel.

[Puregonzo1188]

133. You know I am sure there a lot of people with your exact same mentality in al-Qaeda.

[chill_wind]

147. False claim *by you.* The family speaking to media were in Sanaa.

>>And they only folks that ever said there was a cookout was his family in the USA they were NOT in Yemen !!!<<

“To kill a teenager is just unbelievable, really, and they claim that he is an al-Qaeda militant. It’s nonsense,” said Nasser al-Awlaki, a former Yemeni agriculture minister who was Anwar al-Awlaki’s father and the boy’s grandfather, speaking in a phone interview from Sanaa on Monday. “They want to justify his killing, that’s all.”


Nasser al-Awlaki said he was told by people in the area where the airstrike occurred that the two teenagers were about to have a meal with a small group of men when they were hit. He said he did not know who else was in the group but was told that they were mostly young people.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/anwar-al-awlakis-family-speaks-out-against-his-sons-deaths/2011/10/17/gIQA8kFssL_story.html?hpid=z3

Nasser al-Awlaki said Abdulrahman was in the first year of secondary school when he left Sanaa to find his father. He wrote a note to his mother, saying he missed his father and wanted to see him. The teenager traveled to the family’s tribal home in southern Yemen, but Anwar al-Awlaki was killed Sep. 30 in Yemen’s northern Jawf province, about 90 miles east of the capital.

“He went from here without my knowledge,” Nasser al-Awlaki said. “We would not allow him to go if we know because he is a small boy.” He said his grandson, after hearing about his father’s death, had decided to return to Sanaa.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/anwar-al-awlakis-family-speaks-out-against-his-sons-deaths/2011/10/17/gIQA8kFssL_story_1.html


You're entitled to your opinion, but not to keep embroidering the facts as you go. Just the other day you were trying to tell everyone Kadaffi died from a gun shot to the knee.

[southmost]

46. so I guess we better not leave U.S. soil or you could be executed

without so much as an arrest, trial, etc.

[woo me with science]

58. It sure as hell does. K&R nt

[Tx4obama]

62. Ciao ... I'm out of here! I'm not gonna hang with anyone that sticks up for Al Qaeda. n/t

[EFerrari]

64. So, you have zero evidence this kid was involved with Al Qaida.

How then, is anyone objecting to this murder an Al Qaida supporter?

[whatchamacallit]

65. WTH???

:crazy:

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Since I referred to Nuremberg

You understand how this could be a problem? At least a few lawyers do...and in the past we have screamed when OTHER countries have done this. You are aware of ths, right?

This is where I no longer recognize the country. And on a very serious question I don't expect you to answer...how long untl this becomes SOP in the continental US? All of course in the defense of the homeland? Some of these birds are already taking roost here...do yourself a flavor and read arendt on this subject.

[chill_wind]

78. Disingenuous straw man. n/t

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

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[slipslidingaway]

75. knr ...

reminded me of how the media first portrayed the "young woman" who was raped.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1598009#1598098

[chill_wind]

84. A young Yemeni's facebook: "A crime we'll never forget."

Many Yemenis can understand (if disagree) killing the father,
few can understand killing the son
via @alguneid http://on.fb.me/qWXRvx #Yemen









http://www.facebook.com/pages/Abdulrahman-Anwar-Alawlaki-A-crime-well-never-forget/261697073871779?sk=wall&filter=2

[polly7]

87. They remind me of my nephews posing and being cute. This is beyond sad. nt

[Poll_Blind]

92. Obama's own Justice Department found assassination of a US citizen was only lawful IF...

...it were not "feasible" to take the US citizen alive. New York Times did a http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/world/middleeast/secret-us-memo-made-legal-case-to-kill-a-citizen.html?_r=1&sq=anwar%20al%20awlaki&st=cse&scp=3&pagewanted=print">piece about it- check out the first sentence. The whole piece is obviously worth reading.

Now, in the context of denying a US citizen due process in the extreme (i.e. extra-judicial assassination of a minor), just exactly what definition of "feasable" would the Obama administration be using by which it was "unfeasable" to capture him alive?

I mean...really?

PB

[MADem]

96. They weren't AFTER the kid, though. Read the article. The person they were after is identified. nt

[polly7]

130. I agree with you.

I question when it's all going to end? Do they believe any person associated with / a relative of / living near to / in the same area on the globe ... a verified (or not) AQ member .... is fair game for a drone attack .... forever?

They don't even try to capture anyone anymore. It's too easy to send off a drone and make up the excuses when they kill innocents later. I can't believe though, they'd defend killing an American child. It's mind-boggling.

[fujiyama]

90. Interesting article.

It's a good read. From what I can tell, it doesn't look like the 16 year old was targeted. The others he was with obviously were. What is frustrating is the lack of a formal investigation into the killing of a minor-aged US citizen by the US government.

But as noted, it looks like there were other higher profile targets:

"Also dead in the Friday airstrike in the southeastern province of Shabwa was Egyptian-born Ibrahim al-Banna, identified by the nation’s Defense Ministry as the media chief of the Yemeni branch of the al-Qaida."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/yemen-says-media-chief-for-al-qaidas-yemeni-branch-killed-along-with-6-others-in-airstrike/2011/10/15/gIQAzogalL_story.html

I think the government would likely say he was simply at the wrong place at the wrong time.

[chill_wind]

93. delete- wrong place

[chill_wind]

94. But John Brennen sez

In late June, President Obama’s chief Terrorism adviser, John Brennan, made an extraordinary claim about drone attacks in Pakistan: “in the last year, ‘there hasn’t been a single collateral death because of the exceptional proficiency, precision of the capabilities that we’ve been able to develop.” He added: ”if there are terrorists who are within an area where there are women and children or others, you know, we do not take such action that might put those innocent men, women and children in danger.” The London-based Bureau of Investigative Journalism had heard similar claims from Obama officials over the past several months, and thus set out to examine the relevant evidence to determine if those claims are true.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/29/news/la-pn-al-qaeda-strategy-20110629

[MADem]

101. So maybe the kid wasn't one of those "innocent children?"

You're going to have to wait a decade or two for the declassified version of this thing, odds are, like it or not.

[whatchamacallit]

104. Yeah, we're likely to find out that besides masterminding a major terror attack this year

he planned on getting his license and having a first date.

[MADem]

106. I don't claim to have any "inside knowledge" of what the kid was or wasn't up to.

But I rather doubt, as the child of an AQ terrorist residing in a deeply Islamist nation, that a "first date" was EVER in the offing for him. Maybe an arranged marriage.

And if he'd been in Yemen for any amount of time, he's probably been driving since he was fourteen or so.

Over there is NOT like over here.

[chill_wind]

105. Or maybe they fucked up.

It's not like it's never happened, his ridiculous claim notwithstanding.

Anatomy of an Afghan war tragedy
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-afghanistan-drone-20110410,0,2818134,full.story


U.S. deaths in drone strike due to miscommunication, report says
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/14/world/la-fg-pentagon-drone-20111014

If he was a known "terrist", they shouldn't have any problem asserting that.

[MADem]

107. Or maybe the intended target was more important to them than the collateral damage?

Who knows? None of us, that's who.

As I've said elsewhere, it'll be awhile before that op is declassed. We'll just have to wonder.

[whatchamacallit]

108. Well you can make shit up all day long to put your mind at rest

All we know for sure is that the US blew a 16 year old american citizen to bits without any known justification.

[MADem]

110. As can you, to excite your mind. I never claimed to "know" a thing, here.

I am not making shit up, as you term it. I've made that clear throughout this thread. Anyone who does claim to "know" anything either is working for the NSA or lying out their ass.

And you made my case:

...without any KNOWN justification.

See? You said it yourself. We don't know. There might indeed be justification, it might have been an oops, or maybe they said "We need to get this guy, screw the collaterals."

Who knows? Not you. Not me.

One day we'll likely find out.

It won't be today, though.

[whatchamacallit]

113. Come on, you're the one speculating that maybe he was a baddie

And when I say 'known justification' I mean known to the public. Even though we're not privy to the "evidence" against his dad, there was a least a government declaration of his guilt. If the same is true of his kid the government should make it known.

[MADem]

114. I have, unlike some, made it entirely clear at the outset that I do not "know."

There are some in opposition who appear to insist that the USG "knew" that they were "executing" a "child" who was US citizen. I don't know that for a fact and I suspect it's not accurate. I mean, really--cui bono? There's no benefit to the USG to do that sort of thing.

Anyone is free to speculate on anything if they'd like--I'm just not going to make declarative and insistent statements about what may have happened, since I don't work for NSA and I don't have an inside track on the decision-making process.

The OP article says that the target was the Egyptian guy, not the kid. The report says they have two government sources that assert the correctness of that statement.

[chill_wind]

109. Maybe at the very least they should get their shit together

and stop lying to Americans about their past record.

[MADem]

111. Well, that's pretty generic. You'd have to be more specific, and I suspect

you'd probably want to start your own thread and not hijack this one, if you wanted to get into "past records" in any depth.

[chill_wind]

138. I'm simply referring to Brennen's extraordinary claims.

Even the most hawkish, pro-military pro-counterterrorism trackers of such data and most inclined to give the most conservative estimates of the data over the years would seem to easily dispute him.

[MADem]

112. Doubleclick, pardon. nt

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll_Blind]

139. You know, I've seen some pictures of Afghani fields sown with the body parts of women and childen..

...which might tell a different tale in regards to our "exceptional proficiency" with Hellfire missiles. And it doesn't stop http://www.military.com/news/article/predator-friendly-fire-kills-2-us-troops.html">there.

PB

[MrSlayer]

115. Do people really think there was ever a time that this wasn't possible or happening?

Do you ever think there was a time when if "they" wanted to get you, they couldn't or wouldn't? I don't.

[EFerrari]

118. That killing has always been possible doesn't mean

this killing shouldn't be interrogated.

[Poll_Blind]

131. +1

PB

[chill_wind]

145. +1

86. Outside its own territory (or in territory over which it lacked control) and where the
situation on the ground did not rise to the level of armed conflict in which IHL would
apply, a State could theoretically seek to justify the use of drones by invoking the right to
anticipatory self-defence against a non-state actor.147 It could also theoretically claim that
human rights law’s requirement of first employing less-than-lethal means would not be
possible if the State has no means of capturing or causing the other State to capture the
target. As a practical matter, there are very few situations outside the context of active
hostilities in which the test for anticipatory self-defence – necessity that is “instant,
overwhelming, and leaving no choice of means, and no moment of deliberation”148 – would
be met. This hypothetical presents the same danger as the “ticking-time bomb” scenario
does in the context of the use of torture and coercion during interrogations: a thought
experiment that posits a rare emergency exception to an absolute prohibition can effectively
institutionalize that exception. Applying such a scenario to targeted killings threatens to
eviscerate the human rights law prohibition against the arbitrary deprivation of life. In
addition, drone killing of anyone other than the target (family members or others in the
vicinity, for example) would be an arbitrary deprivation of life under human rights law and
could result in State responsibility and individual criminal liability.



United Nations HRC Study on Targeted Killings

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/14session/A.HRC.14.24.Add6.pdf


http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/03/world/la-fg-cia-drones-20100603


Brookings- The Washington establishment's centrist think tank (and generally supportive of the drones strikes program) estimated approx as many as 600 civilian deaths- and that was as far back as 2009.

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2009/0714_targeted_killings_byman.aspx?p=1

Even The Long War Journal, most likely to be cited by the frikkin Council on Foreign Relations and the Billy Kristols of the uber-conservative media spectrum doesn't try to pretend there haven't been innocent deaths.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2010/06/al_jazeeras_gregg_carlstrom_ha.php

[Odin2005]

144. The PTB will murder whomever they want, the MSM will call the victims "terrorists", and...

...most Americans will never know the truth.

We've always been at war with Eastasia...