High Demand for Science Graduates Enables Them to Pick Their Jobs, Report Says

[FarCenter]

The 2009 study by Mr. Salzman, a professor of public policy on Rutgers's New Brunswick campus, and Mr. Lowell, director of policy studies at Georgetown's Institute for the Study of International Migration, used 30 years of federal job data to show that American colleges produce far more talented graduates in the sciences than is required by the industry for which they've been specifically trained. But there is a labor shortfall, the professors said, because so many science graduates take jobs in areas such as sales, marketing, and health care.

The training and expertise of science graduates give them that flexibility, Mr. Carnevale found in his study. Sixty-five percent of students earning bachelor's degrees in science or engineering fields earn more than master's-degree holders in nonscience fields do, the report says. And 47 percent of bachelor's-degree holders in science fields earn more than do those holding doctorates in other fields.

A liberal-arts education is often regarded as giving a graduate a wide degree of flexibility in a fast-changing job market. The wage data may now be showing that a narrower education in a scientific field offers similar benefits, Mr. Carnevale said. "The technical foundation," he said, "is worth even more than we thought."

http://chronicle.com/article/High-Demand-for-Science/129472/

[XemaSab]

1. I'm going to get jumped on for this

but I think it's easier to bullshit your way to a BA in English, history, anthropology, religious studies, or another non-science discipline than it is to bullshit your way to a BS in chemistry, physics, biology, math, or another science IN MANY UNIVERSITIES IN THE US.

[Warren DeMontague]

3. You're absolutely right.

People get degrees and praise for churning out echo-chamber dissertations full of the appropriate dog whistles & psychobabble buzzwords to make the insular faculty poo-bahs happy, and then wonder why no one- aside from the insular faculty poo-bahs- wants to hire them for their 'skills'.

[coalition_unwilling]

5. I'll get flamed for this no doubt, but I think you are correct. However, in

my experience, those prone to bullshit tend to gravitate towards Business and Marketing Degrees :)

[MadHound]

13. Then I suggest you try and bullshit your way into a History BA,

Let me know when and where, so I can laugh at your futile efforts. Having gotten a BA in History, and both Elementary and Secondary Education, I can tell you flat out that you're wrong. My guess, you won't even make it through Historiography or its equivalent at the school you're attending.

[XemaSab]

15. I graduated a few years back

History was a cakewalk for me. Everyone thought I was a history major. I got an A in that class while doing none of the reading and no studying.

How?

The miracle of bullshit. :D

[MadHound]

16. What history classes did you take?

The typical survey course that all undergrads are required to take? Yeah, those are indeed a cakewalk for anybody who paid halfway attention in high school.

No, I'm talking about going through and getting the actual degree. Taking the upper level classes, doing thesis research, writing your thesis, and then defending it. You have absolutely no clue, nor have any room to speak unless you've done the entire degree.

[ellisonz]

22. Agreed.

What's shocking is how many people didn't pay halfway attention in high school...

My B.A. in history was no cake walk. I generally found that the science people in my history/humanities classes had a difficult time dealing with arguments that were not concrete and quickly grew frustrated with the absence of certainty. Doing chemistry is one thing - anyone can be drilled in it - doing historical research into ancient Greek historical thought is a quite different beast.

[XemaSab]

24. Where did you go to school?

I don't think my school offered a class in Greek historical thought, or had majors write a thesis.

[ellisonz]

26. Same place Steve Jobs went to before dropping out (I finished)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_College

All freshman are required to take a year long course in Greek and Roman humanities in the ancient world. You have to take a junior seminar in your major, pass a qualifying exam and then spend a year writing a senior thesis which then has to be defended before an oral examination board. I only wish that all institutes of higher education were required to do similar practices.

Oregon public broadcasting recently did an excellent review of Reed's history (about an hour long): http://www.opb.org/programs/oregonexperience/programs/36-Reed

I admit: We're pretty fucking arrogant. x(

[XemaSab]

27. I applied there

:D

[glowing]

33. I think it depends on the person and their own development,

interests, and pre-college education.

I love history, I think its just one of those subjects that is fascinating... So, as a science student, I did extremely well in the history classes I took (and I took a couple of extras I didn't need just because I like history subjects). My mom had a big hand in making history interesting and fun. She loved Greek Mythology (we had a ton of these books sitting around our house from the time I was born), she also loved the civil war era, and the whole time of her living history of the civil rights and hippy times... Personally, I like Roman history, Celtic history, Puritan history, New England Native American history (one summer actually participated in a dig and found Native American archives), and Revolutionary War period history.

Now, one reason some science students may not do so well in history classes that they have to take in college to be a "well rounded person" is because a science degree often requires difficult classes that are 3 hrs and 1 lab, another 3 hours (all resulting in 4 credit hours only). It does suck to fit that much more time and work into one's schedule per week. So, if a science student is carrying a biology, chemistry, and say physics or course specific to graduating in their science degree, they are cramming in a lot of study time with 3 classes and 3 labs. Often the extra class is an English class or a history class or the foreign language class. Its often the class that is the "easy", slide by. Maintain the minimum high C or B is enough with little study because the main focus is on the science courses. AND believe me Organic Chemistry is one of the most amazingly tough classes that I have ever taken. I started out so badly the first time, I dropped it before I failed it the first time. I still don't quite understand anything about it. On the other hand Marine Chemistry (one of the "toughest" courses in the Marine Science programs that everyone normally struggled with), I understood really, really well. AND Physics, another really tough concept for me, however, when I took Physical Oceanography, Physics as a whole gelled as a concept, and I ended up getting and A in the class. I had the same professor for all of my physics course work. He found it amazing that I struggled so profoundly in the first 2 of his classes, and then the tougher course, a lightbulb somehow went off in my brain.

As far as the original OP, I call BS on the whole, "we need scientists". It is extremely difficult to find a job in science with only a Bachelor's degree, which is why many go on for a master's in business (to run a lab) or specialize in "management" so they can work in a government agency. Any position with a bachelor's degree only pays like shit. At the most like $30,000 a yr. In FL, it means normally much less pay. Its an extremely difficult field to pop into. People are research snobs. And there is very little funding for a lot of research or govt agencies, especially, when it comes to the environment because the truth and facts about studies often put a financial dent in the pockets of private, profitable industries.

There are many, many of my friends that I graduated with that sell insurance or still work as waiters because a science degree doesn't mean a job or even a good paying job. So many people just don't understand how difficult getting into a job is.... and every year, you are competing with a new batch of degreed kids who have the most current science courses/ techniques, and need any job at all to pay the bills and the student loan. Legacy posts are also a shoo in. Its who you know and who you did research for that helps the most.

[wickerwoman]

29. Not sure that's fair.

I've worked with plenty of engineers who couldn't string a basic sentence together, make a coherent argument, or come up with an original solution to save their lives. But they were very, very good at plugging numbers into equations.

I know it's a cliche, but having taught freshman comp for a few years I saw some pretty shocking stuff from pre-med and engineering students in particular. The reason they think English and History are a cake walk is because they drop those classes as soon as humanly possible and never advance to the higher level stuff.

And written and oral communication skills are important. So is being able to accurately read and understand long, dense, higher level texts. And so are critical thinking skills.

I went back for a second Masters in a somewhat sciency field that overlaps with geographers, engineers, architects and ecologists and the top three students in my class majored in English, photography and philosophy. We run absolute circles around the kids with pure science backgrounds who may understand the technical stuff at a deeper level but can't communicate that understanding effectively and can't apply it to real world situations.

[XemaSab]

31. I think it really depends on the school you go to

I had a roommate who was an English major, and he couldn't write his way out of a wet paper bag.

On the other hand, I do read terrible, terrible stuff written by science majors.

Did you know that shrikes often cache their prey in crotches? :shrug:

[Lucian]

30. I worked my ass off to get my degree in anthropology.

The social sciences aren't a cakewalk. There's just as much hard work put into those as there is in the sciences.

[provis99]

2. his conclusions are exactly opposite of his data.

If science graduates are taking jobs in sales, marketing, and health care, that is NOT an indication of financial success for science degrees. The graduates may have made even more money had they had a social science or humanities degree. And reason why science graduates in science fields make more money is obvious; fewer of them go into the job field. If all science graduates went into the science job field, their pay would be considerably lower.

Poorly done study.

[quaker bill]

4. My son had his pick of positions before he graduated

in 2009 - with a materials science PhD.

[Igel]

17. Nope.

In fact, your argument is schizophrenic. You argue that wages are high because applicants can't find jobs--but high wages should produce a glut of applicants that would drive down wages.


Many get jobs in science and then leave for personal reasons, etc. Some return to school, some go into law or other professions--not because the pay's low but because they don't find the jobs fulfilling or what they wanted out of life. Some don't like keeping their technical chops current; others can't find "the" job or don't like the management structure they're forced into. Some with PhDs have trouble limiting themselves when academia--in which there really is a bit of a glut--doesn't pan out.

The key is to look at the time course of a graduating class's science bachelors degrees. Fresh out of school, a majority go to grad school. Those who go into industry, whether with bachelor's or master's degrees, get high paying jobs, but there's a relatively short half-life. Five years later, esp. for bachelor's degrees, there's a fair amount of attrition--making way for another flock of fresh hires.

Some health care and professional careers have had greater salary increases and higher salaries, as of 2008. But STEM jobs still have a lower unemployment rate even as lawyers saw their job potential decline (but not their earning potential). Biology's sketchy, physical sciences and engineering (except some computer-related jobs) are still in demand.

[Fumesucker]

6. If science jobs are so high paying?

Then why are so many scientifically trained graduates taking non-science jobs?

:shrug:

[FarCenter]

8. Probably because they like the work better

Lots of science jobs are fairly solitary or involve working only in small groups. Some people like jobs with more social interaction.

Another factor pointed out in the article is that it is native English speakers who often go on to other fields. Immigrants often have BS degrees from their home countries and get graduate degrees in the US. US citizens often leave after the BS, since they don't have to get a PhD in order to get a visa.

A science or engineering degree, followed by an MBA after a year or two of work, is a common career track.

[hack89]

9. Because they are high paying and fulfilling? nt

[Fumesucker]

10. I thought that was the science jobs?

You know, the ones they just trained to do..

The jobs that pay a premium because it takes highly specialized training to do..

[hack89]

14. If you ran a company in a technical field

don't you think it would be a competitive advantage to have managers, salesmen and marketing people with strong technical backgrounds that had a deep and fundamental knowledge of what you were selling?

[JI7]

23. yes, i would be more impressed with someone who had knowledge of the product, service etc

they are selling but may not have studied business than somebody who has no idea of the product or service but have business degrees.

at this point business degrees are probably the ones i'm least impressed with.

[Johonny]

18. science jobs aren't high paying-relatively speaking

which is why many scientists leave science to work in other fields. When I was in school science major left to get computer programing jobs, but even more got their MBA or law degree. People in science fields tend to like their job and thus tend to get paid less than other fields that require the same amount of training. At least at the advanced degree level.

[GaYellowDawg]

32. Because

If there's a job out there that's better than an 70-80 hour a week postdoc that pays 32K a year, most people are inclined to take it. And if you don't believe me about the 70-80 hours - many top research scientists are completely driven by their work, and expect anyone working under them to be just like that, too. There are many postdocs out there working 12 hour days Monday-Saturday plus a few hours on Sunday - if you're not there when the PI is there and not there when s/he leaves, hang it up.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. I teach geek, and our graduates who seek employment in the field have not problem finding it

going back 5+ year or so

[badtoworse]

11. I got an engineering degree in 1972

It's been very good to me. Even at 61, I was hired last June by a large investment bank to advise them on investing in the electric power business.

I've been out of work a few times, but have always managed to land good jobs. I highly recommend science or engineering as a college major

[greenman3610]

12. even if you don't plan to work in a science field

getting some science background is, I believe, more important every year.
In a democracy, we need as many science literate people as we can get.
If you are a manager or a communicator, you need to understand science as well.

[girl gone mad]

19. We are graduating far too many scientitsts and engineers..

for the positions available in these fields, particularly beyond the graduate level.

[exboyfil]

35. I don't agree about engineering at all

Only if you include the massive glut of Indian and Chinese engineers, and even still U.S. engineers are superior in overall capability. We even pay bonuses in our company when your recommendation leads to an engineering placement. I can't comment on Science degrees.


As my two daughters define their future, I am trying to guide them on the correct choice. My oldest (10th grader) is doing very well in Algebra II/Trig, loves science, but also loves Broadcast Journalism/Video Editing. I am talking to her about a B.S. in either Computer Engineering or Computer Science with a Film Studies minor. Alternatively a dual major in C.S./Film Studies.

My younger daughter wants to be a doctor. I am recommending a B.A. in Biochemistry/Biology with a minor in Creative Writing (she is an amazing writer for her age). Her major is higher risk because, without the B.S., the B.A. is something of a dead end degree. I am thinking some sort of technical writer if she cannot get into medical school. Also she might go on to get a M.S. at one of the larger universities (after taking the additional Math courses).

[Nikia]

20. Really? I obviously need some career counseling

I am considering getting a Master's degree so I might be able to someday make more than $40,000/year. Most BS in Biology positions seem to pay under $30,000/year if you stick with lab or field work.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. I have Comp Sci graduates getting $50-$60K offers regularly

[WinkyDink]

21. And the other report says they cannot separate fact from rumor, etc.

[cemaphonic]

28. This is pretty reflective of how my wife's career has gone.

She graduated with a BS in Chemistry during the 90s, and quickly learned that the kind of jobs you can get with a BS in Chemistry are barely better than "you want fries with that?" in terms of wages and benefits, but in addition, you get to work with (and smell) noxious chemicals all day. So she took a customer service job (answering phones, scheduling appointments, etc.) at a hospital, which paid better wages and benefits. One of the doctors in her clinic saw potential in her, and pulled some strings to get her accepted into an MHA (MBA for healthcare, more or less) program, which she was able to use to get a job as a clinic manager at the same hospital.

So she never actually used her chemistry degree for more than a few months, but it has still helped her in her career in a number of different ways.

1) As chemistry is one of the typical washout classes for pre-med students, she gets a lot more intellectual respect from the doctors at the hospital than most of the other managers at her age/experience level.

2) The heavy background in data visualization and analysis has made her very adept at spotting places where numbers aren't adding up, which comes in handy all over the place.

[glowing]

34. You got it. Doesn't pay well with only a BS.. .and the chemicals

are awful. I stopped after 3 yrs in an environmental testing lab. OMG. the chemicals change your brain chemistry... didn't even realize how badly they were effecting me until I almost lost everything I loved in my life.