Is it the French Revolution yet?

[XemaSab]

Obama's in San Francisco at a $7,500-a-plate lunch while across the bay Occupy Oakland was violently broken up by riot police. (Alameda County, BTW, went 78% for Obama in the 2008 election.)

How's the cake, Barack? :shrug:

(Hi mods, I'm not calling for any harm to come to the president, I am just saying that this is a very out of touch gesture on his part. :) )

[TBF]

1. K&R nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

2. No. President Obama will keep his head

[mmonk]

39. LOL

Good one.

[villager]

3. Has our hope-and-change President uttered "Apres moi, le deluge?" yet?

(And isn't that, come to think, another version of the "lesser of two evils" rationale always used to justify supporting corporate-owned Dems who sell us out?)

[FrenchieCat]

4. I thought the OWS despised Barack Obama? I heard that here....

and I understand that there is going to be a revolution
and that political parties currently in power will be ousted,
along with the overthrow of the Supreme Court, and the instantaneous
reversal of United Citizen...

But till then, Obama is still running against the Koch Brothers.
That's the reality.

But you can make a link between what is happening in Oakland,
and the fact that Obama is in SF if you want to.....
Because after all, we can link anything to anything,
if that's your wish.

[leftstreet]

5. OWS appears to be ignoring Obama n/t

[FrenchieCat]

8. So guess he's returning the favor.....

but OP appears to be upset with that....
and I guess that poking at the guy
is the answer to her issues.

[DocMac]

14. And Obama appears to be ignoring OWS. nt

[FrenchieCat]

18. He may have spoken more about them, then they have about him.

I can't imagine that his program to help homeowners or college students
means he's not heard them. I think he has.
Now, you can ignore all of that, and just play dumb. Maybe it will help you.

[XemaSab]

11. The Bay Area may be his base

however, it's also a strong base of the 99-percenters.

Much like a couple having marriage problems should never force the kids to side with one parent over another, it's a massive mistake to force the Bay Area to pick between supporting the president and supporting the people.

[FrenchieCat]

16. I'm in Oakland,

and apart from the police action which has nothing to do with Oakland residents,
but may have something to do with the Mayor Nancy Kwan's decision....we will have to see
what comes of it.....

As for Oakland, we are a Democratic strong base, and will remain that way, even if the rest
of the fucking country decides to stay home and pout while waiting for the Revolution to
be completed.

One thing about Oakland folks....we ain't stupid. We aren't about to cut off our nose
to spite one man. We aren't into that dumbshit.

[Major Hogwash]

37. Plus it has a nice view.

Unless its not downtown, then they might be looking towards the suburbs where the houses are being vacated at an alarming rate.

[AngkorWot]

6. Are Obama critics really that desperate?

They have to whine about him raising money for a presidential campaign?

[FrenchieCat]

9. Yep...it's that bad.

The GOP loves it.....
cause at the end of the day, a tool is a tool,
no matter the shed, long as it gets the work done.

[apocalypsehow]

28. Oh, I've seen them moan & groan at much less. You should get over to GD:P sometime. n/t.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tridim]

10. Is calling for the Democratic President to be decapitated against the DU rules?

Let's find out.

[leftstreet]

13. Why do people always look at the French Revolution through the eyes of the Ruling Class?

It's always with the guillotines, never the organization of the working classes

[AngkorWot]

17. The working class organized the guillotines

[FrenchieCat]

20. We, the French, didn't see positive change materialize for a long time....

as change takes a long time....always has....

Internally, popular sentiments radicalized the Revolution significantly, culminating in the rise of Maximilien Robespierre and the Jacobins and virtual dictatorship by the Committee of Public Safety during the Reign of Terror from 1793 until 1794 during which between 16,000 and 40,000 people were killed<2>. After the fall of the Jacobins and the execution of Robespierre, the Directory assumed control of the French state in 1795 and held power until 1799, when it was replaced by the Consulate under Napoleon Bonaparte.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

So we went from the Revolution to the Reign of terror to Emperor Napoleon.

Romanticizing what happened over 200 years ago in another country ain't gonna
get us diddly. Hope that ain't what you're pinning for.....

[coalition_unwilling]

26. Since you've decided to diss Napoleon, I'd like to remind this

forum that in every country that Napoleon's forces conquered, serfdom and involuntary servitude were ended. So, yeah, Napoleon was an emperor but he was an emperor who freed all the serfs. Think that would have happened without the Revolution that preceded it?

[FrenchieCat]

29. Yes, he was an early version of the Neocons.....

spreading his brand of democracy via the invasions of many countries
via many wars.

Ok.

[coalition_unwilling]

41. Are you denying that his forces abolished serfdom wherever

they encountered it? Or are you saying you approve of serfdom? Hard to get a sense of exactly where you stand. Serfs were the Napoleonic era's 99%, btw.

[FrenchieCat]

45. Napoleon was a complex being......

and he is remembered for a lot of things, some quite remarkable, and some not so much, as he did reinstate slavery in French overseas territories during his time.

[apocalypsehow]

48. Are you denying that the Conquistador's abolished human sacrifice in Mesoamerica wherever

they encountered it? Or are you saying you approve of human sacrifice? Ergo (by your logic), the European conquest and colonization of the "New World" was just peachy keen! Go Cortes! ( :sarcasm: )

See how the silly game of plurium interoggationum is so easily turned on its practitioner?

Edited on SAMCRO commercial to remove unnecessary snark.

[apocalypsehow]

30. Napoleon was a dictator who plunged Europe into any number of needless internecine wars.

Hard to take the view that he was some kind of hero seriously, at least to those who know more than a scintilla of actual facts about European history.

[coalition_unwilling]

40. Well, if you were a serf at the time and were liberated by

Napoleon's forces, I daresay you might have a different opinion. One of my B.A.s is in History (Modern European emaphsis), btw.

[apocalypsehow]

46. Except, they weren't "liberated": they were conquered, by a foreign invader who then imposed their

own version of cultural norms at the end of bayonets. The same justification - "liberating" a supposedly benighted and backward culture from "serfdom"* - you are reciting here is just what Cheney and Wolfowitz said about invading Iraq: "it's for their own good!"

How many other foreign, imperialistic invasions in the name of "liberating" an oppressed class of persons do you support? How about ethnic Germans in Poland in 1939? They were "liberated" by another dictator very much in the swaggering, "I know what's best for you" mode - and he was cheered by many of them on those very grounds. Of course, your answer there will be "that's different." But actually it isn't: it's the exact same logic.

"One of my B.A.s is in History (Modern European emaphsis {Sic}), btw." - Uh huh. And I'm Herodotus's grandfather... (:eyes:)




*Even here, you overstate the case for it being a "good" thing that serfdom was violently abolished: Napoleon's "liberation" also created a sudden proletariat class, that was eventually forced off their own property and crowded into urban areas under the most horrid of conditions and oft-times subsistence wages - arguably worse off than they'd been under serfdom, without any degree of graduation.


What was that you were saying about "one" of your "B.A.'s" again? "Modern European emaphsis {Sic}"? I'd demand a refund for the credit hours charged, were I you....( :rofl:)

[coalition_unwilling]

47. Sorry for the typo with 'emaphsis' - having major mouse and sticky key problems

with the Toshiba laptop right now. Driving me crazy actually.

BTW, the possessive of Herodotus is Herodotus' (no extra 's' after the apostrophe of possession needed on a poly-syllabic word that ends in 's'.) My other B.A. is in English :) I'll spare you the snarky and shrill 'sic'.

***************

We really don't have any serfs whose opinion of Napoleon we can solicit today. I was merely trying to point out that, as FrenchieCat has now acknowledged, Napoleon's record is mixed and to tip my hat to 'liberte, egalite, fraternite' and not to utter some general defense of Bonapartism.

There are major differences between Europe in 1800 and Poland and the Danzig corridor in 1939 and we both know it. I do think you want to be careful, lest your position be read as a defense of serfdom and its like. For example, your words could easily be grafted onto the U.S. and its Civil War, such that you find yourself painted into the corner of defending Southern cultural norms against the pointed bayonets of Generals Grant and Sherman. I've heard it before, that those slaves were actually better off as slaves than as part of a landless proletariat.

I'm sure from having read other posts of yours that you hold no warrant for serfdom or for slavery.

[apocalypsehow]

49. Your argument does not impress me, and your attempts to attribute beliefs to others that you have

not a shred of evidence to substantiate impresses me even less. And you are, of course and right on cue, engaging in yet another logical fallacy, this one informal.

It was you, of course, who first uncritically praised Napoleon as a figure who "abolished serfdom"; now you state that you agree with another poster's assessment that "Napoleon's record is mixed." See the link above.

"I'm sure from having read other posts of yours that you hold no warrant for serfdom or for slavery" - There we go again. :eyes:

[coalition_unwilling]

50. My argument may not impress you, but I nailed your ass on that

mis-use of the apostrophe of possession in calling yourself "Herodotus's {sic} grandfather" :)

Napoleon by no means abolished serfdom. IIRC, it continued in Czarist Russia until 1860 or thereabouts. Would that Napoleon had abolished it. (Thanks a lot for nothing, Wellington and Blucher.)

Your general all-around ill temper compels me to ask: should Napoleon have left serfdom intact in places where his forces encountered it? Should the North have allowed slavery to continue to exist in the South, so as not to impose its cultural norms by force on the South?

[apocalypsehow]

51. Well, I was his grandfather, so there.

;-)

Sons of Anarchy just came on, so we'll have to postpone this argument for another day.

[coalition_unwilling]

52. Actually, I've always regretted not having taken more courses in

Philosophy, specifically formal logic, as an undergrad. If I ever return to the classroom as a student again, I'm going to try to fill in those gaps, assuming the austerity programs haven't completely eliminated Philosophy by that point. (Half joking but half serious, as I wouldn't put it past the fucking technocrats running academia to eliminate Philosophy entirely.)

Sounds like you have more of a background in formal philosophy, so I look forward to further correspondence. You've got me a-thinkin', that's for sure :)

[DocMac]

21. When things get that far,

the people must make sure ALL the enemies are disposed of. Treason is serious!

Had this country acted properly after the depression, we wouldn't be having these problems.

The rebels in Libya need to get his sons now. They can go to another country and come back with troops and have said as much. Revolution is a messy task.

[ellisonz]

32. Because most people don't know about...

The European Revolutions of 1848, known in some countries as the Spring of Nations, Springtime of the Peoples<3> or the Year of Revolution, were a series of political upheavals throughout Europe in 1848. It was the first (and only) Europe-wide collapse of traditional authority, but within a year reactionary forces had won out and the revolutions collapsed. This revolutionary wave began in France in February, and immediately spread to most of Europe and parts of Latin America. Over 50 countries were affected, but there was no coordination or cooperation among the revolutionaries in different countries. Five factors were involved: the widespread dissatisfaction with the political leadership; the demand for more participation and democracy; the demands of the working classes; the upsurge of nationalism; and finally, the regrouping of the reactionary forces based in the royalty, the aristocracy, the army, and the peasants.<4> The uprisings were led by shaky ad-hoc coalitions of reformers, the middle classes and workers, but it could not hold together for long. Tens of thousands of people were killed and many more forced into exile. The only significant reform was the abolition of serfdom in Austria and Hungary. The revolutions were most important in France, Germany, Italy, and Austria, and did not reach Russia, Great Britain, or the United States.<5>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_1848

Sometimes - Revolutions fail.

[No Elephants]

12. In Hollywood, the tab was $38K per couple, but fundraising goes with the territory.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. Will Madame DeFarge be attending?

[dtexdem]

19. No, so far it's the Spanish Inquisition.

Now, at the $7,500-a-plate lunch, did they let them eat cake?

[tridim]

22. OP, your CYA edit doesn't matter, you're still calling for his head.

I hope you're proud.

[FrenchieCat]

23. Just poking at him, like Perry......

The extremes on all sides do start to look alike after a while,
and neither care about shit else but feeling right
and vindicated....the rest of us could go to hell
for all they truly care.

[KamaAina]

25. I think she was saying "Let 'em eat cake"

rather than "Off with their heads!"

[XemaSab]

33. Exactly

:)

[coalition_unwilling]

24. And Gov. Jerry Brown (who used to be Oakland Mayor) has been

conspicuously silent on this whole matter.

Jesus H. Christ.

[Divine Discontent]

27. I give you a rec for the content, but a no-no for the title of the post. I'd say, Out of touch much

Get it here now, or one of a million other designs! http://www.zazzle.com/republicans_2012_keeping_millions_out_of_work_bumper_sticker-128659602907896843?rf=238107662556833486

[gateley]

31. If Obama can get money for his campaign and the DNC from wealthy

supporters able and willing to shell out $7500/a plate, I'm fine with that.

I don't think it's out of touch, I'm sure he was well aware of the situation, but he needs funding to run his campaign and stay in office.

It's the real life of politics.

This was WORK for him, he wasn't living it up at the expense of the peasants.

[XemaSab]

34. Why is "work" defined here as pandering to rich donors

when it should be defined as helping the 99 percent?

[gateley]

44. I think he is ALSO helping the 99 percent, don't you? Getting

reelected will go a long way toward that goal rather than letting a Republican take the reins. Just because he's going to a dinner to solicit donations doesn't mean he's not doing anything else.

If you want to run for office, the ugly truth is you have to pander to those with money for their contributions. I hate it, it sucks, but that's what we have at this time.

[Major Hogwash]

35. No. Because I don't have my fluffy shirt yet.

It's still at the cleaners.

The fluffy shirt via Seinfeld, the one man in America who could possibly resurrect the fad of the fluffy shirt, killed it.
Alas and forsooth, the fluffy shirt, aye, we didn't wear you well.

:rofl:

[JI7]

36. he is asking those who can afford it to give that much money for the election campaign

he isn't squeezing it out of thsoe who can't afford it.

[FarCenter]

38. No, no one has called an assembly of the Estates-General

Nor has the Third Estate formed a National Assembly.

The French Revolution did not start with the peasants.

[coalition_unwilling]

42. Ah, but there are now provisional calls for a National Assembly

to convene in Philadelphia on July 4, 2012, ostensibly to compile via consensus and publish to the nation a "List of Grievances."

Interesting times we live in.

[BOG PERSON]

43. i don't think the USA needs a second bourgeois-democratic revolution

[Nye Bevan]

53. Fortunately, in a civilized democracy, violence, bloodshed and guillotines are unnecessary.

We can simply vote for the candidates of our choice who can implement the policies that we desire. Unlike in pre-revolutionary France, anyone can vote, campaign, and run for office. Remember how we installed a Democrat as President with no bloodshed whatsoever? Isn't this way so much more civilized?