The Constitution is our (encampment) permit, it knows no curfew.

[Fire Walk With Me]

Is this literally a fight for the First Amendment? I know that the Tennessee judge released arrested protesters, and the ACLU are taking interest, and Naomi Wolf says this crap about permits is just crap...should I even voice this in question form: Have we lost our First Amendment rights and are we actually directly fighting for the Constitution itself?

[TwilightGardener]

1. Isn't Naomi Watts an actress?

[RB TexLa]

4. Get ready to be told how important actors and actresses are. And how there would be mass suicides

if they weren't here because of how dreary a world it would be. No one could find the will to live without them in the world. :rofl:

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon, Alec Baldwin, Matt Damon, Bratt Pitt, Angelina Jolie, Sean Penn

and many others help us fight this fight. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss their usefulness. They have the money, the stature, the soapbox and means to help us. We need all the help we can get these days. Be they actors, actresses or Joe Schmoe. We need their voices.

[Fire Walk With Me]

6. You are correct, and I have edited my OP.

[PETRUS]

2. 1st amendment rights are definitely being violated.

And have been for a while, I would argue. 4th amendment rights have been flushed down the toilet (look up the "constitution free zone"). Nor are the PTB adhering to amendments 5, 6, and 8.

K&R

[Uncle Joe]

3. The state of Tennessee's Constitution even goes so far as to specifically spell it out

using the words "at all times."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=5040845&mesg_id=5041275

http://www.tncrimlaw.com/law/constit/I.html#1

§ 1. Powers of people

That all power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety, and happiness; for the advancement of those ends they have at all times, an unalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform, or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper.

(snip)

§ 23. Right of assembly; redress of grievances

That the citizens have a right, in a peaceable manner, to assemble together for their common good, to instruct their representatives, and to apply to those invested with the powers of government for redress of grievances, or other proper purposes, by address or remonstrance.

Thanks for the thread, Fire Walk With Me.

[Jnana]

5. Whether or not it's a First Amendment issue varies from site to site.

For example, the site of the OWS protest in NY is Zuccotti Park, which is privately owned. Thus, if the owners, for whatever reason, decide that they no longer wish to host the protest, they have the right to ask the protesters to vacate the premises.

What I find most ironic is the fact that the NY protesters are being hosted by a one-percenter, and the park itself was originally created by United States Steel, a bastion for one-percenters.

[Marazinia]

7. Short History Lesson

The founders of this country and the writers of the constitution never really intended for the people to have power. They were terrified of democracy, protests, and pressure put on state governments by people. Shay's Rebellion and the unrest leading up to it is what caused the founders to create a strong central government in the first place. James Madison specifically stated that if the people were too spread out and too great in numbers that we would be unable to oppose the landholding minority and their policies.

He was right.


But our ancestors didn't have the internet.

[Jnana]

27. If they did not intend for the People to have power, they would not have established

the People's House.

The Framers, as a political group, were a phenomenon unprecedented in history--they were philosophers who were also men of action.

Jefferson and Adams in particular, were brilliant men who were not only able to grasp the revolutionary ideas of the period, but were also able devise a means of implementing those ideas in practice. I don’t know if the were "terrified" of democracy; however, they recognized the need to establish a system of government whose operation and integrity were independent, to the greatest extent possible, of the moral character its elected officials.

Regrettably, over the years, the mechanism of checks and balances they defined in the Constitution has been circumvented by government officials of questionable character. Because power corrupts, we are devolving into a nation of men (democracy), rather than a nation of laws (republic).

I urge you to seek a refund for your history lesson.

[sabrina 1]

29. The owners of Zuccotti Park cannot ask the protesters to leave

because of the agreement signed by them when they were allowed to buy the park. It is meant to remain open 24/7 and to be used by the public during those hours. That is why they organizers chose it. And the reason why they are still there.

The protesters would have to be doing something illegal to be asked to leave. Legal experts informed the Mayor of this early on, otherwise you can be sure they would have thrown them out in the beginning.

[Jnana]

30. I did not know that; however, it does provide a good incentive for the protesters

to police themselves. If they are successful, it will be hard to make the case that some of their critics are attempting make.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tsiyu]

9. The answer is YES

We are fighting for our Constitutional rights.

Today's politicians are slaves to the 1%

They are stupid slaves, though. They underestimate the extreme rage of the American people - at their peril.

Right now, Americans are content to protests non-violently. With our Constitution at stake? And mayors, cops and other politicians shitting on our Constitution like they're freaking KINGS and QUEENS (yeah, I'm talking about you, Prince BillyBoy Haslam) ?

Can't say how long people will be content with just protesting. People are fed up.

In either case, we will win. If they want blood, they will eventually get it, unfortunately, but I don't think they will like who will end up bleeding in the end....

[Zanzoobar]

10. Wow! Cue the 2nd amendment gun nuts!

[Fire Walk With Me]

11. No, we know the 2nd Amendment is fine, look at all the unmolested armed teabaggers

on parade. Doin' just fine, no cops, plenty of MSM time...nothing to see here...

[Zanzoobar]

12. Ha! But there are soooooooo many local regulations!

It's almost impossible to sling a six gun in Chicago unless one is a criminal.

OWS is facing the same problem.

How in the world does one express 1st amendment rights in the face of brutes bound to violate them?

[Fire Walk With Me]

13. You have to be willing to become the embodiment of honor, of the Constitution itself.

Gandhi showed us.

[Zanzoobar]

15. It's hard to argue against a pleasant dream.

But you're argument necessarily includes revolution and civil war.

Score one for the gun nuts.

[Fire Walk With Me]

17. I hate violence, it makes me physically sick throughout my body.

Sheer force of numbers produces victory. Look at the change we've already forced, then multiply it times three, times ten.

The power is and always has been in the hands of the people.

[Zanzoobar]

18. You need to know something...

The left thinks they are behind those Guy Fawkes masks, the right thinks the same damned thing.

If ever it comes, it will come in buckets.

[Fire Walk With Me]

19. I have great faith in the power of peace, but we shall see.

We are far stronger than we remember, than we have been caused to believe. One student in Tianenmen Square. How many Egyptians did it take, how many Tunisians...how many of US?

[Zanzoobar]

21. Yeah, no bloodshed there.

Totally peaceful. I really don't want to be flip, but...c'mon!

[Fire Walk With Me]

22. Well, we've already had bloodshed. The 1% have clearly drawn first blood. But...

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever does”
Author Margaret Mead

And everything the powers that be do wrong, backfires against them terribly, adding hundreds, thousands to our ranks. This is the price of Change.

[Zanzoobar]

24. If every dead guy had a nickel for every platitude...

They'd still be dead. Truly, we will never understand each other's world.

I wish you the best, and hope for your victory.

[Fire Walk With Me]

32. It's coming, although it may be through throes in the old world. Join us, it's better here ;)

[loyalsister]

16. It's a conundrum

I was very supportive of the requirement of a permit when Nazis came to my city to hold a parade. I thought they were mostly trying to elicit a response. It gave some groups in the city time to organize a response plan that would prevent confrontation and violence. Also non-participants were warned and could plan with the disruption in mind.
Aside from that an appropriate police presence was also required for the safety of everyone.
Citizens who are not participating deserve some consideration.

[Fire Walk With Me]

20. In this case, 99% of the citizens of the world are participating, even if only

through having been harmed by some of the 1%.

[loyalsister]

25. Not everyone in the 99% wants to be a part of OWS

There are lukewarm supporters and even more avid supporters who do not feel like they are represented in this movement. There are also plenty of people who are too busy to be interested in politics. I was recently at a family gathering with more than 50 people. 1 has gotten involved. None of the other working\middle class people even care to talk about it.
Some may deride them as "part of the problem" or stupid. My conversations with them revealed that they are trying to survive and doing what they feel is best for their families by working and participating in a system that is admittedly corrupt. They want to make sure that their kids are consistently going to school, eating, and living in a house. They do not want their lives disrupted.
I would hope that protestors would not be so arrogant as to claim that they represent them whether they want to be represented or not.

[sabrina 1]

33. 57% of the public polled supports the movement.

A much higher % supports their right to be there. That makes it the most popular movement in living memory and it's only a few weeks old.

However, a movement doesn't need the support of every individual in order to succeed. The Civil Rights movement, eg, had far less popularity than this one has, and I can't imagine how many people opposed the American Revolution. But if a cause is right, it will prevail and even those who did not actively support it, will benefit.

Btw, I have had the exact opposite experience to yours. Friends who are not political at all have asked me if I know about it saying they are glad this is happening, one who is a Republican, is worried because her two sons, 19 and 21 are part of the Philly occupation and she is worried they might get hurt but is proud of them. Family members who are Republcians also support it and last week one of our neighbors asked if we knew about saying she is very glad people are beginning to question what 'has been going on in this country'. So far, I have not met anyone who opposes it and I'm sure there are some who are unaware of it.

But the national polls say your family is in the minority at this point.

[woo me with science]

23. Damn right we are fighting for the Constitution.

Multiple amendments, actually.

The ACLU on Obama and Core Liberties
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php/harveywasserman.com/en.wikipedia.org/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2069714

[joeglow3]

26. That is what the Tea Baggers are saying, as well

http://www.reformer.com/ci_19211308?source=rss_viewed

[geek tragedy]

28. The old saying goes--your elbow room ends where my nose begins.

Public areas are supposed to be enjoyed by all, but making sure all have an opportunity to enjoy them means regulating what can go on. There's no right to blockade subway entrances, block traffic lanes, and parade through residential neighborhoods at 2:00 in the morning making enough noise to prevent people from sleeping.

[Nye Bevan]

31. If they were drumming outside your house at 3 AM

would you still be saying "no curfew"?

[Tsiyu]

34. No

but then, I don't mind drumming. Been to Bonnaroo a few times :)

As for the drumming, they can institute a noise curfew.

Our TN Constitution does not stipulate a time when we cannot protest our government, so a total curfew is against the Law of the Land here.

BTW, If people decide to become violent - which would not be started by OWS but by others enraged by persecution of OWS, and which all of us should hope will NEVER happen - late night drumming will be the least of your worries.

[Nye Bevan]

35. A "noise curfew" works for me too. Say, dead silence after 8 PM. (nt)