Can anyone name a single time the vatican has been on the right side of history?

[Very_Boring_Name]

Born and raised Catholic, I can't think of a single instance.

[Jackpine Radical]

1. Vatican II (in part), John XXIII

--maybe.

[intheflow]

18. Yeah, if there was a Pope who did good in the world,

it was JXXIII.

[deutsey]

28. What I read parts of the Vatican II documents, I really liked.

Too bad it's all been undone.

[Brickbat]

2. The Vatican? No.

Also raised Catholic.

[Ian David]

3. When they pardoned Galileo like 10 years ago? n/t

[hobbit709]

4. But it took them how long? Only about 350 years after the fact.

[Ian David]

6. That's really fast by Vatican standards.

Maybe, in about 100 years, they'll decide that raping children is bad.

[madokie]

64. I wouldn't bet on that

[ismnotwasm]

39. Or when they got rid of purgatory

You know the one they sent unbaptized babies to. Or something

[CBGLuthier]

61. No, you don't really get credit for undoing your mistakes.

If that were all it took then I guess they should get really big points for not torturing suspected heretics and jews any more.

Progress.

[Bragi]

5. No. Next question? /nt

[Common Sense Party]

7. Pope John Paul 2 was a big supporter of the Solidarity union in Poland.

[Bragi]

8. He was anti-Commie, not pro-union /nt

[Common Sense Party]

9. Yes. And that's still a good thing.

[ret5hd]

10. Why is not being pro-union a good thing?

[Common Sense Party]

21. Being anti-Communist is a good thing.

Do try to stay on subject.

[defendandprotect]

34. The topic is the Vatican .... when you say "anti-Communist" presume you mean

totalitarian Communism which USSR practiced --

because, after all, Jesus was a communist!

[defendandprotect]

32. Often said that he was the first ....

CIA Pope --

"Is the Pope Italian?"

[JNelson6563]

11. Weren't they against the Iraq war?

:shrug:

[rhett o rick]

12. If so it was kept pretty quiet. nm

[intheflow]

19. That wasn't the Vatican's fault.

That was the CM refusing to report meaningfully on any dissent.

[rhett o rick]

48. I think they could have been heard loud and clear if they wanted to.

The priests could have made the message clear to their flocks.

[intheflow]

52. As a former paster, I know

that many pastors don't like to preach peace because it makes the parishioners uncomfortable, and uncomfortable parishioners don't pledge. That's across denominations, so not necessarily a reflection on the Vatican. Also a giant reason why I'm no longer a pastor, because I couldn't shut up about these things.

[defendandprotect]

36. Exactly ... but mention "abortion" and it gets noisy!

Yes, it got very quiet after W Bush committed US tax payer dollars to

subsidize their "faith-based" organizations --

just about the time the Vatican really needed funds to pay off their

pedophile law suits!!



Re abortion -- Catholic women have just as many abortions as any other women --

Catholics support simple "choice" by 51% majority -- and larger majorities where

health of woman and damage to fetus are involved.

That all makes clear why the Vatican continues to try to influence our government

on this issue to destroy reproductive freedom -- it's their way of trying to regain

control over women and families who choose birth control, sex education and abortion.

[JNelson6563]

43. I remember much talk of it here at DU

it was in the news and all the Catholic churches around here gave out signs that read "Pray for Peace".

Let's be honest and give credit where it is due. It lends credibility when one has a genuine criticism.

Julie

[rhett o rick]

49. "Pray for Peace" has nothing to do with staying out of war in Iraq.

The Church didnt make much of an issue of it. It was a long war and very little ever said. Did priests preach against the Iraq war specifically?

Bush prayed for peace via war. Pray for Peace and pass the guns. What did the Vatican say about the children brutality murdered?

[intheflow]

53. This is what the Pope said about the impending Iraq conflict:

"NO TO WAR"! War is not always inevitable. It is always a defeat for humanity. International law, honest dialogue, solidarity between States, the noble exercise of diplomacy: these are methods worthy of individuals and nations in resolving their differences. I say this as I think of those who still place their trust in nuclear weapons and of the all-too-numerous conflicts which continue to hold hostage our brothers and sisters in humanity. At Christmas, Bethlehem reminded us of the unresolved crisis in the Middle East, where two peoples, Israeli and Palestinian, are called to live side-by-side, equally free and sovereign, in mutual respect. Without needing to repeat what I said to you last year on this occasion, I will simply add today, faced with the constant degeneration of the crisis in the Middle East, that the solution will never be imposed by recourse to terrorism or armed conflict, as if military victories could be the solution. And what are we to say of the threat of a war which could strike the people of Iraq, the land of the Prophets, a people already sorely tried by more than twelve years of embargo? War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations. As the Charter of the United Nations Organization and international law itself remind us, war cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good, except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions, without ignoring the consequences for the civilian population both during and after the military operations.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2003/january/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20030113_diplomatic-corps_en.html
About half way down the page.

You cannot hold the Vatican responsible for what individual priests preach or do not, they have free will to choose which teaching to preach on any given week. I'm sure there were plenty of priests preaching on this, anyway, but how many people actually follow what their priests/ministers preach? Very few people have the guts to walk the talk.

[Freddie Stubbs]

50. 3/12/03: Associated Press: Vatican Strongly Opposes Iraq War

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,80875,00.html

[rhett o rick]

56. Freddie, you are linking Fox Noise. Some how I am not surprised. nm

[Freddie Stubbs]

58. If you has read the article, you would have noticed that is was an Associated Press article

[rhett o rick]

59. My point is that you get your info via Fox News. There are lots of legitimate sources of AP News.

By the way I dont trust the AP either.

[Freddie Stubbs]

65. I suppose that The Daily Worker and Granma from Havana are the only truly reliable news sources

;)

[rhett o rick]

66. You think Fox News is reliable? nm

[Freddie Stubbs]

67. No, but most reasonable people think that the Assocaited Press is relaible

[mix]

14. good point nt

[redwitch]

17. yes.

one of my favorite anti war signs read "The Pope says Nope".

[mix]

13. The Vatican? Nothing comes to mind...but

the progressive currents among Catholics--liberation theology in Central and South America--was a ray of hope.

Oscar Romero, assassinated March 24, 1980 in El Salvador

[Jackpine Radical]

26. The Berrigans too.

The whole Catholic Workers movement.

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. Feeding the poor. Believing that the better off should take care of the less fortunate.

It's the only reason why I may remotely consider myself Catholic. I know that the correct preaching from the right priest will actually make a difference because I've seen it. But it only works in closed societies where outside interference is minimal.

[mix]

16. I am not a Catholic, but I have always admired that aspect of the faith. nt

[defendandprotect]

31. Recall ....

that US taxpayers now fund the Vatican's "faith based" organizations --

I'd suggest that rather than turning our tax dollars over to the Church to

feed the poor, our govenrment should use the money to "feed the poor" and to

create jobs. No private organizations can feed the poor.

[Bragi]

24. So why are they sitting on all that wealth? /nt

[The Backlash Cometh]

27. By closed societies, I mean...

...societies where a family tree crosses various social strata. So there is a lot of social interaction between the classes.

Frankly, I don't know if that situation exists today. I'm talking about places which I knew as a young girl.

[defendandprotect]

30. First, we are now subsidizing their "faith based" organizations -- and secondly....

NO private organizations can feed the poor -- as we saw in the Depression of the 30's

and now in this one --

It takes the wealth of a people's government to feed the poor and to provide jobs --

so that the poor can afford to feed themselves.

We might also note that that US taxpayer largess came from W Bush -- as I recall it

the commitment to providing US taxpayer funds came just about the time the Vatican really

needed it to pay off their pedophile law suits. Church stands against war, but not very

noisy about it after that --

Mention "abortion" however and there's a lot of noise -- though not from the overwhelming

number of Catholics who actually support simple "choice" -- which is more than 51%.

And much higher majorities for abortion when the pregnancy effects the health and well

being of the woman or the fetus.

[The Backlash Cometh]

35. No reason to argue with me over this.

The Catholic church in a Latin American country is very different than the one in the U.S.

Land grabbing, dynasty building bunch in Norte America.

[defendandprotect]

37. Agree ... was just trying to refresh everyone's memory that we are now subsidizing the Vatican....

I do recall that 150 years or so ago, Mexico reclaimed property from them --

and that gradually in Latin American countries the people have been freeing

themselves from the church.

Do all Latin American countries now have reproductive freedom, including abortion?

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. I wouldn't know.

Haven't been there in years.

[defendandprotect]

40. Did notice that gradually some of them were changing, but still strong

oppression of women under Catholicism -- especially re reproductive choices.

The biggest enemy of the Vatican continues to be democracy --

and democracy continues to be the greatest influence on people freeing themselves

from Vatican rule!

[TheMadMonk]

44. Won't even give you that, since for most of history, the Church...

...made it's charitable activities dependent on the recipient "embracing" the Church.

Still does to all intents and purposes in the Philipines where an indiginous religion is being converted out of existence, through the offer of free schooling.

Charity is giving, expecting nothing in return. The Roman Catholic Church has NEVER practiced charity in its existence.

[ljm2002]

20. Yes, the Vatican opposed GWB's Iraq war. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

46. That's true, they did oppose the war. nt

[TlalocW]

22. Didn't they come out supporting evolution

Saying it wasn't incompatible with faith or something?

TlalocW

[slackmaster]

23. Have you made an effort to research the history of the RCC, or are you relying on your own memory?

Studying history required some effort.

[deutsey]

25. I'm not Catholic, but I remember hearing John Paul critique capitalism

I don't think he was calling for its abolition, but I do recall agreeing with whatever it was he said at the time (this was back in the early '90s, I believe).

[defendandprotect]

29. Only in the 1960's when we got Vatican II ... Pope John XXIII's call for a democratic church ....

same history as you -- old NYC Irish Catholic -- left as soon as I could!

[fadedrose]

33. The Vatican caused history, and most of it not good eom

[mdmc]

41. the death penalty son

[Ichingcarpenter]

42. Giving Leonardo, Michelangelo and Raphael a job

I like their stuff, maybe they could have gotten a job elsewhere
but not a the going rate the Vatican could come up with.

[Swede]

55. What do Ninja turtles have to do with the Vatican?

:shrug:

[LeftishBrit]

45. John Paul II opposed the Iraq war.

[emilyg]

47. +++++

[AngryOldDem]

51. John Paul II and Poland.

Edit to add: Also "Rerum Novarum, On the Condition of Labor," a papal encyclical from 1891. The first instance of modern Catholic social teaching.

[intheflow]

68. This was a seminal piece in early labor organizing.

Written during a time of labor uprisings against robber baron capitalism, particularly in response to the Haymarket massacre. Good Catholic social teaching, indeed.

[somone]

54. The possibility of intelligent alien life

The Vatican has also spoken out against aggressive/bullshit intellectual property protection

[Motown_Johnny]

57. they must have spoken out against some war and/or violence

although I would need to research it to come up with some specific example.

[bulloney]

60. You mean the sun does not revolve around the Earth?

I thought the guys in the funny hats from the Vatican knew more than Galileo.

[WinkyDink]

63. I'm SURE the rest of Europe was more enlightened!

[WinkyDink]

62. Post-WWII, can you name one for the U.S.?