US soldier.....taking fingers off bodies as war trophies

[Ichingcarpenter]

Two former colleagues of Staff Sgt Calvin Gibbs testified to army investigators, giving evidence about the alleged self-styled "kill team"Kill team' soldier faces trial
An Army staff sergeant charged with killing three Afghan civilians admits taking fingers off bodies as war trophies, his lawyer says.

Staff Sgt Calvin Gibbs, 26, maintains he was not involved in the killings, and has pleaded not guilty to 16 criminal charges. He is one of five soldiers charged.
In March 2011, photographs were published showing the soldiers posing with the corpses of Afghan civilians they had allegedly just killed.

The admission that Sgt Gibbs took fingers off the three victims and either kept them as war trophies or gave them to others involved in the killings came during Monday's opening statements from Sgt Gibbs' lawyer, Phil Stackhouse.

'Out of control'
Mr Stackhouse told jurors at the court martial that Sgt Gibbs believe the three killings had been legitimate engagements and that he had been conspired against by his co-defendants.
Military prosecutor Capt Dan Mazzone said Sgt Gibbs had killed simply because he wanted to kill



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15529751

[Tx4obama]

1. Nothing regarding war in our modern day surprises me anymore

I watched a show on cable one night a few months ago (can't remember the name of the show) where during boot camp the troops were singing a chant/song over and over about killing babies/children.

The USA military troops are 'brainwashed' to where they can kill humans without remorse and without thinking about what they are doing. They get so hyped up that it is 'in their blood' that their main goal is to KILL.

Perhaps it is really not 'our' place to say if the way the troops are trained is right or wrong (it falls at the feet of the higher-ups in the military to start doing the right thing) - the troops do need to be trained in a way in able to 'kill' the enemy without 'losing their minds' doing so. But, in my opinion, there also needs to be a way of UN-brainwashing them when they return back here at home.

I do believe most of the troops that commit suicide is because they can not deal with the acts that they have committed overseas that they were 'brainwashed' to commit.

The reality of war has changed since the days of WWII and we as American citizens need to research what is going on and have say regarding the new reality of what is combat/war.

[Cid_B]

4. I'll give you a clue...

We aren't brainwashed.

99.999% of us manage to do our duty and come home just fine.

This guy is just a jackass...

As to this part ... "The reality of war has changed since the days of WWII"... I recommend you crack a history book. We are so so so much more restrained now then that generation of Soldier.

[Tx4obama]

5. Nope. I disagree. Watch that documentary regarding the indoctrination of the troops.

I think it might have been on the Sundance channel.

[Ichingcarpenter]

6. He is only one out of the five this story is about.

the others poise too, so he wasn't a lone wolf.

[Fumesucker]

8. Here's a little history on this point..

This is why the aggressiveness training (brainwashing) was instituted in the ground forces in particular

http://www.cynical-c.com/2007/08/08/only-15-to-20-of-combat-soldiers-in-wwii-would-fire-at-enemy/

Marshall was a U.S. Army historian in the Pacific theater during World War II and later became the official U.S. historian of the European theater of operations. He had a team of historians working for him, and they based their findings on individual and mass interviews with thousands of soldiers in more than 400 infantry companies immediately after they had been in close combat with German or Japanese troops. The results were consistently the same: Only 15 to 20 percent of the American riflemen in combat during World War II would fire at the enemy. Those who would not fire did not run or hide—in many cases they were willing to risk greater danger to rescue comrades, get ammunition, or run messages. They simply would not fire their weapons at the enemy, even when faced with repeated waves of banzai charges.

[pinboy3niner]

11. In the Army, Marshall's findings led to institution of the Trainfire program

The training uses popup/knockdown human silhouette targets instead of bullseyes, and emphasizes volume of fire over precision, where soldiers are trained to put down a base of fire and to fire at indistinct targets and suspected enemy positions.

IIRC, one of Marshall's findings was that a soldier keeping his head down in his foxhole became isolated from his comrades and unit leadership. I believe Trainfire's emphasis on continuing to engage by fire, even in the absence of clear targets, was intended to counter that. Trainfire's second phase, in Advanced Infantry Training, focuses on the soldier operating as a member of a squad.

Trainfire was instituted in the late '50s, but I think the Army is still using it today.

[Fumesucker]

12. Not everyone who was in the military advertises the fact..

And keeping your head down wasn't the reason so many in WWII didn't fire at the enemy, they didn't fire at the enemy because of a lifetime of conditioning not to take human life.

The military has to deprogram people from that attitude to make them effective combat soldiers.

Some people see that as brainwashing.

[pinboy3niner]

13. The military was training people to take human life long before Marshall came along

I appreciated your bringing up Marshall, because his work on the behavior of men in combat was interesting and surprising.

My post wasn't argumentative. It was intended to expand on your historical observation to show the actual changes in training that resulted from his work--including the introduction of human silhouette targets as part of Trainfire.

The finding on men keeping their heads down was Marshall's not mine. It's been many years since I read 'Men Against Fire,' so I don't recall how expansive he was in discussing that point.

[Fumesucker]

14. I guess you missed this part of my earlier post..

"Those who would not fire did not run or hide in many cases they were willing to risk greater danger to rescue comrades, get ammunition, or run messages. They simply would not fire their weapons at the enemy, even when faced with repeated waves of banzai charges."

That was my point, to get over the reluctance to deliberately kill another human being, a reluctance that has to be instilled strongly in order to have a civilized society, it takes a certain amount of what can easily seen as brainwashing.

You really have to make the enemy not-human in order to get a great many civilized people to readily kill them. Military training in some parts consists of erasing conditioning concerning civilized behavior.

This wouldn't bother me nearly as much if I thought our leaders used military force only as a last resort, I think it's closer to being the first choice now.

[Katashi_itto]

7. Sort of takes collecting Magic the Gathering cards to a new level...

I will take your Black Lotus card AND your fingers....

[court jester]

2. Expanding the definition: Winning Hearts, Minds and now...Fingers!

well 1 of 3 ain't bad, it works for baseball players

At least none of the victims family members will try to avenge this...Because we care...

Round and Round and Round we Go
Where it Stops Nobody Knows

"An Eye for an Eye", and what for a finger? Perhaps a fist

What would Americans (The Chosen) think if they were invaded by Afghanis, and these invaders took the fingers from those they killed.

What.


What could the US do with 1.3 Trillion Dollars? (besides taking finger trophies)

http://costofwar.com

[Ichingcarpenter]

3. Each soldier costs one million dollars in Afghanistan

never-mind what it will cost when they come home

[Fumesucker]

9. Actually that's one million dollars per year.. n/t

[lunatica]

10. Remember during the Bush years when the military lowered its standards

for recruiting? I do.

The hypocrisy of the military brass and government pretending war is some noble endeavor is grotesque. They send idealistic young people to kill and die and proudly put their hands over their patriotic hearts, also pretending they care for the soldiers. That is, until they come home too fucking messed up to adjust to a normal life again.