A thought on the homeless joining the Occupy groups

[lunatica]

I've read a few posts that seem to infer that they aren't part of the 99%. That they're giving the OWS a bad name. Should they stay out of sight so as not to bother us by wanting a warm place to sleep and some hot food? Are we really going to go there?

[Fumesucker]

1. I bet some of us will... n/t

[TBF]

K&R

Important point - hope folks think about this.

[Uben]

2. Here's the problem with that.......

...














get it?

[lunatica]

3. No, I don't get it

Blank space? crickets?

[HappyMe]

5. I think the poster meant

no problem.

[Uben]

6. There is no problem.

The homeless have just as much a right to be there as anyone.

[lunatica]

23. Thanks for explaining it. I was truly puzzled.

[H2O Man]

4. Recommended.

The opposition is attempting to "infect" the OWS with what they view as the human trash. We need to turn this to our advantage. The simple truth is that not only should we welcome the "homeless" and others marginalized by society, but we have a unique opportunity to embrace and learn from each and every individual who comes our way.

Gandhi understood this. King did, too: hence the planned Poor Peoples Campaign. Expanding our sense of humanity is a good thing.

[boston bean]

9. I agree with you H2O, but there are some who truly need medical and psychiatric

attention, that OWS can't possibly treat.

Yes they could give them food and a blanket. Yes, they can be very loving and kind, yes they can be open hearted. And I believe they are.

But some could pose a physical danger to OWS. What to do then? I've read stories where cops are dropping off homeless to the park, instead of bringing them to a hospital for treatment.

[OneGrassRoot]

11. The larger OWS sites could deal with this the way a civilized society would...

Address it, acknowledge them as human beings, and do what they can to get help. Contact the proper agencies for guidance and assistance.

When anyone presents to an Occupy site -- homeless or not -- and need treatment, there needs to be a protocol to deal with it. The larger ones have this in place with medical tents and such.

There is a fabulous opportunity here to turn the stereotypes around and point out the flaws of the system and how to inject some humanity into things.

I understand what you're saying and I recognize what is trying to be done by some cops and goodness knows who else trying to sabotage OWS, but I think dealing with it head on, compassionately and humanely, rather than turning away and rejecting anyone is the way to go.



:hi:



edit for typo

[boston bean]

13. I never said to reject anyone. So please don't intimate that I did.

Here is the thing. It's difficult for people with power (doctors/police) to force treatment upon one who may need it. There are legal obstacles.

This isn't something OWS can do. They can't make people seek help, and they quite possibly, no matter how kind and welcoming, make them better.

That is all. It is a conundrum, but I do see a safety aspect to this. And yes you are right, TPTB are trying to sabotage.

I am not into, rejecting all homeless from the park. I don't think anyone is. They are the 99% just like all of us. But you shouldn't be putting others in danger from people who truly need medical and psychiatric attention. A good bowl of soup and a blanket aint gonna heal some things. And OWS has no legal authority to force people into help. And as you know many do not go willingly.

[OneGrassRoot]

16. Oh, no, boston bean. I didn't mean to suggest that whatsoever...

My apologies. :) I was speaking more to the OP and reaffirming H20 Man's perspective.

You're absolutely correct about some needing help yet resisting it. That is an extraordinarily difficult situation under the best of circumstances.

I guess I just view this situation as the same whether someone presents at OWS as homeless or not; I see the potential for this to happen -- disruption and possible harm to other protestors -- in various ways, whether it's someone who presents with a weapon, etc. I don't see the particular problem you bring to light as relegated to those who are homeless. The potential is there in general.

How they deal with it is probably different from city to city, given resources available, or not. I do think this is something all organizers need to be prepared for and have some sort of protocol in place.

Again, my apologies, as I didn't mean to insinuate anything whatsoever regarding what you posted.

:)

[Bluenorthwest]

18. What does 'presents as homeless' mean? Do you card folks

at protests? Show me a mailing address, or move on? 'Presents as homeless'? Where does that language come from? Do those with homes automatically 'present' as safe an innocent? 'Safe as houses' and all?
Disturbing. He 'presented' as liberal, so what could we do? TREATMENT!

[OneGrassRoot]

21. Wow, some people are looking for something to argue about... (w/edit)

If you read my entire post and my earlier post rather than pick out those three obviously poorly chosen words, you'll see I am making the same point you are.

I meant nothing by it. I just worded it awkwardly. Sue me for cryin' out loud.

I was saying that the point boston bean was making is, to me, not a matter of whether someone at OWS happens to be homeless or not.

:shrug:


This subthread is one of many examples why Democrats lose and are ineffective. People are too ready to pounce on others and too easily misinterpret what is said, rather than have a calm discussion about gravely important issues.

:(

[Bluenorthwest]

29. Sorry for the spunk., but seriously 'presents as' is terminology I

an unused to hearing, I assume it comes from some profession something. So I asked. Excuse me for doing so. When I am not familiar with a term, I ask.
I expected to hear 'it is medical terminology' or 'it comes from social work' or something that would explain the use of the word 'presents' in that context. I just never hear people speak of how another 'presents'. Ever. So I asked if presenting involved an I.D. card, presenting one's address. Are there other ways for me to 'present as a householder'? Other than identification, how would I present the fact that I have a home? Whine loudly about my lawn service being lazy? Ask where the closest Pink Berry is? Arrive at the Park in a Town Car?
Sorry, the terminology startled me, and I still wonder what roots that word has in terms of human interaction. Two people meet, one is 'presenting' to the other. This means one is judge, the other is judged. I'd hate to go through life thinking that others 'present' to me, while I the serene and all knowing, assess what they present, and report up the ladder accordingly.....
I'm sure we are both on the same side. I am bothered by the idea that those without a current address are instantly subject to judgment by those who do have an address.

[OneGrassRoot]

32. Yes, it comes from familiarity with medical terminology...

We all have a lot to be furious about, and all of us feel attacked so much nowadays.

Sorry I felt attacked and didn't instead see that you were asking a question.

My use of "presents as" is rooted in patients presenting to medical facilities with various symptoms.

Peace and :hug:

[Bluenorthwest]

33. Peace back....

nt

[snooper2]

56. "is terminology I, an unused to hearing, I assume it comes from some profession something."

I totally agree lol :)

[2pooped2pop]

35. totally agree n/t

[2pooped2pop]

31. yes, and Occupy Phoenix and others is having a hard time

with people coming to the camp, using the supplies, not partaking in any movement activities, partying and getting drunk, trying to takeover and make it violent,stealing from the others etc.

It's really got nothing to do with feeding the homeless. I don't think anyone advocates refusing to feed anyone in need. But those supplies won't last as long if the police are going to try to get all the homeless in the city, as well as anyone being released from jail to head down to the camp. So feed the homeless, people. Dig in and cough up more donations to the movement.

But you are not going to make an alcoholic or drug user just quit that kind of behavior, and the police are counting on them to bring a bad name and illegal activity with them.

So, I agree that this is best served in a kind and loving, feed them all approach, but that won't solve this thing without lots of donations.

And if you don't think that pointing out all the "criminal activity" is the next reason to bust the camps, then think again.

Boston Bean I agree with you and this message is for the general DU population more so then you.

[coalition_unwilling]

50. Thank you. We can demonstrate to the broader community how

protocols based on love and inclusion can out-perform protocols based on stigma and contempt. Hope you will consider making this an OP.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. You do understand that homeless people do not by definition

need the hospital what they need is a home. Also, the OP asks about people who are joining the movement not people being dumped by the cops in lieu of needed treatment.
I'd also like to hear your answer as to why 'non homeless' people are never a physical danger to others, but the homeless might be. Most physical crime is done by well fed criminals with beds and smart phones, not by displaced individuals attempting to find a place to sleep.

[boston bean]

19. Of course I understand that many are not a danger.

However there are some that are, and the police are dropping them off at Liberty Park.

When they need medical and psychiatric attention.

There is concern about this from OWS organizers.

They are not equipped and have no tools, whatsoever to deal with that, and the police will not help them.

And yes, I agree, that non homeless people can be a danger. However I was discussing homeless people who have many issues, not homelessness alone, or those who are danger that have a home.

[Bluenorthwest]

36. The OP topic was about homeless people joining OWS

The cops dumping people in need of treatment at OWS rather than at a hospital is a different topic than homeless people joining the movement. The thread is about people making a decision to join in, not about people being taken there when they need a doctor. The issue you are bringing up is a Police issue, they are derelict in their duty when they do this, and they do this all the time, all over the nation.
It is interesting when asked about people joining a group to speak of others like them who are dangerous, being dumped by cops and imply that the joiners are the same as those being dumped because they lack permanent residences.
You seem to suggest that homeless can not join the movement because among them are sick people who the Police abuse by dumping them at a public event. The OP asked about homeless who join OWS of their own free will, which they have, like it or not.

[boston bean]

53. Again, why is there suspicion of my thoughts and understanding.

I may have narrowed the point of the OP, but also, I may have widened it.

It means nothing more than what I have written. I have no other motive.

I fully support OWS and discussing these things will strengthen the movement.

[lunatica]

20. Medical and psychiatric needs aren't exclusively homeless problems

There are probably far more so-called middle class people who aren't homeless who need both. And the onus of the homeless is that they get branded as all being insane or drunks or drug addicts. That's simply not true. Women veterans are the fastest growing group of homeless. Some gratitude our government shows huh?

http://www.kltv.com/story/15534474/women-are-the-fastest-growing-group-of-homeless-veterans

[boston bean]

22. obviously not. you are correct. But when you have powers that will not protect

you against either, it's sort of a conundrum, don't you think?

Or refuse to offer medical and psychiatric help to those who need it.

OWS does not have the tools to deal with it.

That is all.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. The OP asked about people who join the movement not those

dumped. Your topic is interesting too, but it is not the same topic. My local Occupy camp has daily sobriety workshops, open to all, they do not have one for homeless substance abusers and another one for those who can prove an address, but they are sure as hell looking to the needs of those who show up.
I offer this to ponder. Any large event, political or not, can have things happen that they are not equipped to deal with on site. No public event is required to be an emergency room or clinic just because some who attend might have need, no one bars late term pregnant women from attending a music festival, although from time to time a baby gets born at one. So even with music and child birth, no homeless, no politics, it is easy to see that public gatherings NEVER are asked to be their own society full tilt. A person breaks a leg at Yankee Stadium, it is not set on site, but at a freaking hospital.
If the NYPD is dumping people, the cops are committing crimes, and THAT is the problem. The victims are not the problem, the Police are the problem. Other people who are also homeless are not the problem, nor is it right to suspect them of illness because they lack money. The cops taking sick people to the park instead of to treatment is a Police issue. Cops do this in many cities, dumping in various places, Skid Rows, the smaller town next door, certain churches, you name it. LAPD has been filmed dumping people in hospital gowns with IVs in their arms on streets near hospitals, left them to wander about half naked and drugged up. Does that also have to do with homeless people who join OWS?

[boston bean]

51. I don't disagree with anything you have said. My comment narrowed the conversation.

I will agree. It doesn't mean anything other than that, or that I don't understand many incidences, thoughts, arguments and discussions.

[Lyric]

25. If there are people there posing safety problems, that's an individual matter.

To be dealt with on a case-by-case basis--just like it's dealt with for NON-homeless people who cause problems or inflict violence.

They aren't wild animals. Treat them no differently than you'd treat someone in a Brooks Brothers suit who made people feel unsafe.

[boston bean]

30. Who called them a wild animal?

Problem here is, is that the police are dropping people off at Zucotti, who need help that OWS organizers are unable to deal with. And the police could give a shit less, and won't help.

I was making a very specific response to anothers reply.

And I think if you read it, again, you will determine, that I do not think homeless people who need medical and psychiatric help are animals.

Please do not put words in my mouth.

I was having a conversation, not an argument, nor am I looking for one.

[2pooped2pop]

34. I think some of these people here need to go check it out

for themselves. The police are also instructing just released prisoners to go there. No one knows what their crimes are and no one much cares. But when your crap is being stolen, when people are causing disturbances, when people are selling drugs from there, well it becomes more of a problem than "should we feed these homeless."

And I believe they said the police will not help the NYC camp if anyone gets out of line.

So if you people have never dealt with people using meth or crack, then you can't understand the problems that they can cause for the movement. They are just being used to set up the protesters with a reason to bust the camp.

Now people, how do they handle that?

a warm blanket and bowl of soup isn't going to do it.

It has nothing to do with an address. I am showing up with nothing but a backpack and I will be accepted because I will be there to Occupy. I will not be causing disturbances, and I will be working to help the movement. But no one knows if I have an address or not. It's not about an address for those of you wanting to break down everyones messages into words to criticize.

It's not about an address. It's about the crime and the way the media and the police are going to use it to break the camps.

[nc4bo]

37. Ok - I understand now...

Then there needs to be kind of documentation; interview some of these people if it's possible, more than 1 or 2, especially if it's released criminals.

People skills needed to interact with them but it needs to be done best on video tape/cell phone and released online. It will go viral, you can bet on it.

Attention should be called upon the actions of NYPD or any other PD and brought to the attention of others and eventually, the media.

[2pooped2pop]

40. well, the occupation

has a very peaceful and open attitude so they would not question anyone unless they did start trouble. And by trouble, I mean real trouble. A guy yelling his views is going to be not necessarily enjoyed, but 1st amendment and all that...He would be tolerated and yes fed.
I am not there yet, so I can't give you a good idea of exactly what the problems consist of, but I will definitely try to see what I can see when I get there. There are reports of people telling the other occupiers that the police directed them there.

[nc4bo]

43. The open, peaceful attitude is OWS's strength....

but agent provocateurs do exist. They're being caught directly but there's nothing to prevent them from trying a more indirect route.

I guess what I'm trying to say is with the strength comes a weakness that will be used against this movement and everyone should be aware of slimy tactics.

The pure will almost always come under attack from the wicked.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. The OP is about homeless people joining the movement

Not about crimes committed by the cops. Dumping prisoners and the sick at OWS is a crime. It is also a subject entirely different from people joining the movement on their own, which is the subject of this thread.
This thread is about homeless people joining the movement. If it is as you say, about crimes, then it is about actions, not status, and thus, bringing crimes up in a thread about homeless people joining OWS is either unrelated or suggests a connection between those joining and criminals dumped there by cops, a connection that is all about their mutual lack of address. A thread about crimes at OWS is not the same as a thread about homeless joining the movement, now is it?
If a demonstrator commits a crime, and is gay, should we then talk about that if asked about gay people joining the movement?
When asked about autonomous people who are not domiciled joining an event, why is the response about meth and crime and people being forced to the event?

[2pooped2pop]

59. get real

U R just the type of person that makes other sites laugh at this one. Trying to start an argument in any way you can.

[Lyric]

38. I didn't put words in your mouth, although you're putting them in mine.

Nowhere did I say that you CALLED them wild animals. However, my opinion is that referring to them as if they are somehow "outsiders" from the OWS movement is demeaning. They are not outsiders. They are as much victims of the 1% as anyone else who's there. And talking about them being "dropped off"--you don't see how that's demeaning to their humanity? Perhaps you don't think this, but your WORDS sound as if you see them like unwanted, badly-behaved pets that ought to be taken to the shelter--not "dropped off" where people who have more important things to do have to deal with them. Perhaps that was not the intention behind your words, but the implication is there nonetheless.

I don't particularly want to argue either. I just wanted to offer a perspective that perhaps you had not considered yet. If someone actually poses a safety risk (homeless or not) then they should be dealt with individually. It seems both cruel and unfair to select them out as a group and declare that they're a problem. If two Latino men decide to pick a fight at OWS, does that mean that Latino men are a problem?

:shrug:

[boston bean]

49. First off, I never even intimated they were outsiders. I said they needed help.

Professional help that OWS is incapable of providing.

You are reading something into my comments, that is just not there.

You may be able to have this conversation who someone who is stating what you are saying they believe. But not with me, because I'm not saying what you are saying I said at all!

Of course they should be dealt with individually. This post was about homeless people, and I narrowed it further to homeless people who need professional help that OWS cannot provide, and that police are dropping them off their instead of a hospital.

If you are going to judge me and what you think are my attitudes toward homeless people, at least read and understand what I have written.

I have also answered everyone here who is questioning, that this thread was about homeless people. Just because I did not mention other people who have serious medical and psychiatric issues who are not homeless, in a thread about the homeless, does not mean I do not understand that mental illness can strike anyone. And that danger can come from someone who is not mentally ill. I get it, I understand, I sympathize with it.

However, not mentioning it in a thread about the homeless, doesn't make me some kind of monster.

[2pooped2pop]

64. some, it would seem, spend all their time

finding fault in other's post rather than participating in any actual action. Even if OWS wishes to feed the homeless, I wonder if any of the keyboarders understand that OWS does not have the resources to feed all of the homeless and indeed, our movement is about permanent real help for these people.

And the complaint isn't just about resources, but about the crime, and the setup that the police are doing right now by directing the homeless and just released to the camps so that they can Scream about all the "crime" at OWS. And the media will lick it up like the dogs they are.

But we cannot give them what we don't have so I hope they are all donating. It's very easy to sit back and scream how, you who are involved, don't care about the homeless and how "we" can turn this into a positive simply by taking care of them all. But I wonder how many of those "we's" actually contribute more than words?

Bodies or Contributions people. Not so many words.

[sabrina 1]

81. In NYC and other occupied sites the Homeless are helping

the occupiers learn how to live on the streets, to survive during the winter etc. Some of the Homeless have said they joined because now they have a voice. They have said they feel useful for the first time because people need them. And now they have hope that if this movement succeeds they can back into society again and live normal lives.

Also, for those with mental problems, alcohol/drug problems etc., the occupiers addressed these issues in their General Assemblies and have set up areas where counseling on how to get help etc, is available. Medics are there to help treat those who need it, and they are encouraging others who really need intensive treatment, to go to places where they can get it.

Iow, they are dealing with these problems the way a humane society deals with them. Their resources are limited, but they are providing food, clothing and counseling if needed, most of all respect and caring to people who were getting little help at ll before they joined the movement.

The NYPD obviously views the homeless and mentally ill as garbage by thinking if they 'dump' them at OWS it will harm the movement, but in fact it has done the opposite. It has highlighted part of the reason for the movement. A country that is run by Soulless Corporations will not take care of the most needy.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

10. +1 nailed it

you are a treasure waterman

[Marrah_G]

28. I truly enjoy reading your posts

I agree, we need to embrace an opportunity to improve their lives even just a little.

[coalition_unwilling]

47. You rock! Hope you'll consider turning this post into an OP and

elaborating thereon.

[Skidmore]

63. We also can provide a voice for them since so many of the homeless

exist because of the inequities, social and economic in oursociety.

[OneGrassRoot]

7. I see OWS as raising awareness about the issue, a very good thing (w/article link)

How Homelessness Became an Occupy Wall Street Issue

The Occupy Wall Streeters are beginning to discover what homeless people have known all along--that most ordinary activities are illegal when performed in American streets.

As anyone knows who has ever had to set up a military encampment or build a village from the ground up, occupations pose staggering logistical problems. Large numbers of people must be fed and kept reasonably warm and dry. Trash has to be removed; medical care and rudimentary security provided -- to which ends a dozen or more committees may toil night and day. But for the individual occupier, one problem often overshadows everything else, including job loss, the destruction of the middle class, and the reign of the 1%. And that is the single question: Where am I going to pee?

Some of the Occupy Wall Street encampments now spreading across the U.S. have access to Port-o-Potties (Freedom Plaza in Washington, D.C.) or, better yet, restrooms with sinks and running water (Fort Wayne, Indiana). Others require their residents to forage on their own. At Zuccotti Park, just blocks from Wall Street, this means long waits for the restroom at a nearby Burger King or somewhat shorter ones at a Starbucks a block away. At McPherson Square in D.C., a twenty-something occupier showed me the pizza parlor where she can cop a pee during the hours it’s open, as well as the alley where she crouches late at night. Anyone with restroom-related issues -- arising from age, pregnancy, prostate problems, or irritable bowel syndrome -- should prepare to join the revolution in diapers.

http://www.alternet.org/story/152837/how_homelessness_became_an_occupy_wall_street_issue/

[LWolf]

8. They are the 99% too. nt

[nc4bo]

12. Too many homeless are out there due to our government's policies

and the actions of the 1%'ers.

I don't really look at them as a problem but more a very real, physical symptom that this society and the government as it stands, has a problem taking care of our own.

Yes they belong but I wish there were resources available to help those in need of the services we no longer have available due to funding cuts, closings, lack of universal health care, housing, etc.

[NNN0LHI]

14. You are going to read just about everything on an anonymous website

[a la izquierda]

15. Anybody who goes there is just sick.

I'm happy I didn't read anything like that, because I'd probably end up tombstoned.

[Lyric]

24. The homeless are the fucking EPITOME of the 99%

They represent the absolute extreme of what happens as a result of Wall Street excess and governmental negligence toward the people. We are the wealthiest nation on earth, and yet, because SOME people are so greedy that they're willing to throw others out to starve in the streets in order to hoard more and more for themselves, we are unable to care for those who need our help.

Profit should never trump compassion. Our culture is diseased and rotting. That is a HUGE part of what OWS is protesting, and there is no better representative class for the sickness of our greed-driven culture than the homeless people who are its victims.

Fuck YES they should be there. There should be educators, lawyers, and other professionals there as well in order to help them understand what's going on and to get their stories and ideas and help them feel truly INCLUDED.

[lunatica]

26. The Occupy Berkeley site is where the homeless sleep all the time

Every bench is always Occupied by a homeless person sleeping on it when I pass them on my way to work in UC. I'm glad to see that they're still there among the Occupy Berkeley signs.

[Marrah_G]

27. They are the part of the 99% hurting the most.

They should have all the warmth, care and food that can be shared. If some of the mentally ill or addicted are causing disturbances then that is another story. Our society has very limited ways to get them needed help.

[coalition_unwilling]

54. Thank you. They demonstrate the utter bankruptcy of the

ancien regime as effectively as any set of signs can. We can build a better world based on sharing and meeting one another's needs. We simply have to put our minds and wills to it and it can be done.

[KurtNYC]

39. Joining? fine. But "Being sent there by police" ?

that is the REAL question. If this is a tactic to destroy OWS then it should not be defended.

[2pooped2pop]

42. that is exactly what it is

The problem is not about feeding the homeless. The problem is the police are directing people released from jail, as well as homeless in other parks to head down there. "Some people" whether they are part of the homeless, the recently released, or the pilgrims (like me) are causing problems and committing crimes. The media and the police WILL be using this as a reason to shut us down.

[Bluenorthwest]

57. Those are two different questions, one is not 'the real question'

and the other not. They are separate issues. One is about criminal dereliction of duty on the part of the Police, the other is about the disenfranchised joining a political movement by choice. One is the topic of the OP, the other is another good topic. They are not the same topic.
But if a group of people is being abused and used by others as part of some tactic, it would be extremely wrong to punish those being used and not the users. It would be even worse to start lumping others into that group due to similar economic status.
The real question is this: Are we the 99% or not? Maybe we are the 96%, leaving out the uppermost and the bottom as well?

[2pooped2pop]

60. go there. then come back and monitor if the OP

is being answered correctly verses the real problem. Go there. Then talk to me.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

73. Why would the police need to guide them there?

The homeless are going to go to anywhere they can find money, food and shelter, especially from well meaning liberals and progressives. That's not snark, just fact.

[KurtNYC]

83. To create an excuse to shut it down -- violence, drug use, etc.

OWS'er on KO:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=630648&mesg_id=630648

[backscatter712]

44. They have every right to be there.

I've talked to quite a few of them while at Occupy Denver.

[Ganja Ninja]

45. You know what this is?

This is like medieval times when a besieged castle would catapult their dead and diseased corpses at their enemies. It shows how much respect for human dignity and how much compassion the system has. The most helpless and pathetic souls in society are cynically used as cannon fodder to defend the most powerful. Pretty fucking sick.

[coalition_unwilling]

55. +1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 - I really wish you would make

this an OP and elaborate on it. Beautifully put (wave jazz fingers, aka spirit wave, at you :)

[2pooped2pop]

62. the problem is not the homeless

It is the crime. The crime is going to be used to shut down the camps.

This is not about the homeless but they will need more donations if all of the city's homeless is now going to hang around the camp. I say hang around because they care not about the movement. We will feed them but can't feed them without food. So donate please.

[coalition_unwilling]

46. As someone at Occupy Los Angeles pointed out this weekend, if

the Occupy movement re-margninalizes those whom the ancien regime had already marginalized, then the Occupy movement is complicit in the marginalization.

The homeless form part of the natural base of the 99%, FFS. Words to the contrary are intended to derail the Occupy Movement by fomenting division in its ranks. Such seniments should face emphatic popular censure immediately, imo.

[coalition_unwilling]

52. Occupy Los Angeles faced something similar this past Saturday. I would

love for everyone reading this thread to read my report and give me feedback:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2218689

[Generic Other]

58. No homeless person has been turned away

at my city's occupation. However, those who bring alcohol or drugs, steal personal belongings, assault or endanger the rest of the group are asked to leave. If they refuse, we call the police. Last weekend a drunk homeless man walked into the camp and began urinating on tents. He was asked to leave and pulled a knife. The police responded and arrested him. They are on our side in Tacoma. For this I am grateful. We are a blue collar town. The unions and the workers support us here.

The shelters have been sending the homeless to us because the shelters are full. The occupiers have been trying to deal with this situation compassionately and peacefully. Most of the homeless have been extremely polite, thanking us for the food we share with them. Many have joined us. I am surprised and appalled at the numbers of homeless. Unemployed Iraq veterans, laid off construction workers, electricians, cooks, waitresses, etc. A true cross section of America.

[coalition_unwilling]

61. According to statistics I read or heard somewhere, Los Angeles

has an estimated 18-20,000 homeless vets. It just makes me want to cry.

[jtrockville]

65. Alcohol is a problem. We don't allow any at "Stop The Machine".

But all are welcome (and well fed) if they can abide by the rules.

[redqueen]

66. How the hell are they not part of the 99%?

:wtf:

That's some seriously ignorant **** right there.

[lunatica]

67. Women veterans are the fastest growing group of homeless people

This has to be a crime against humanity. it's certainly a crime against our own veterans.

http://www.live5news.com/story/15529431/women-are-the-fastest-growing-group-of-homeless-veterans

[GeorgeGist]

68. Now is not the time to begin ...

divvying up the spoils.

[Cal Carpenter]

69. Unfortunately there is a surprising amount of classism at OWS

Ironic, ain't it?

One of the first things I heard there was 'don't camp at the south end of the park, that's where the shady people are'.

It didn't take long for me to realize that was where a lot of 'real' homeless people were, and a lot of people of color.

I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was.

Some thoughts.

---The homeless were there first.

---'The homeless' includes all sorts of people including some very hard workers who are among those busting ass to keep the park clean, the dishes washed, and all the other basic operations work being done nonstop.

---There is a vital need for a 24/7 presence at all occupy sites - the homeless play a huge rule in that. Especially as the weather gets worse and all the people with warm homes or money for hotels start spending less time at the park.

---OWS would be better off if they (we) thought of themselves as joining the homeless, not the other way around

---Many well-intentioned young middle class people live in a bubble. It is easier for them to have compassion from afar. As uncomfortable as some may be at being around real live homeless people (and I am not assuming - I heard and saw this firsthand at Zuccotti) this can and hopefully will be a good learning experience for them, a reality check

---What the fuck is the point of OWS if not to recognize that we are a hell of a lot closer to the homeless than we are to the execs at the top of the fancy buildings on Wall Street?

Anyway, thanks for starting this thread. It's important, and many find it difficult to talk about openly and honestly.


ETA: I want to clarify that while I did hear and see this at OWS, the vast majority of the people didn't have a problem with this. Most of the commentary I've seen about the 'homeless problem' is being said by people who haven't even been to any of the occupy sites. Including many here at DU.

[LeftyMom]

70. The cops are steering addicts and crazies to Occupy encampments as sabotage.

People won't feel safe with the batshit and the violent around and they'll leave. There have been rapes at OWS since they started steering dangerously unstable people there. The unsafe situation the cops are creating is going to be another excuse for cops to crack down.

It's not Occupy's job to provide food, shelter or services to the mentally ill. They don't have the facilities to do so safely, that's what the social safety net is for. And the sort of economic policies that lead to the gaps in that social safety net are what Occupy's all about. They're going to make things better for those people by creating change in the system, not by letting them distract from the movement, monopolize limited resources and endanger activists.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

71. What proof do you have that the cops are doing this?

The mentally ill and violent in any big city are going to be drawn to large events such as Occupy, they don't need to be steered towards it.

[LeftyMom]

72. The homeless people and addicts showing up at OWS are saying the cops sent them.

:shrug:

[Cal Carpenter]

74. People who have been released from prison

are told they can go to Zuccotti for hot meals. This is common knowledge there.

[burrowowl]

75. I bet the percentage of Homeless is

much more than 1 % and that percentage is growing. What percent of the 99% are the Homeless?

[Maraya1969]

76. They are part of the 99%

[Fire Walk With Me]

77. The camps are going to need people experienced and trained in mental health, etc.

if they wish to accept them in directly. There are many options but the fact that they are TRYING, and are thinking about it seriously, makes me glow with pride, reminds me that people have good in them just waiting to come out and fix our problems.

[Jim_Shorts]

78. The OP is worded like a Republicon push poll

If the different occupy camps don't find an effective way of dealing with the unstable people that cops and repukes are sending their way it could be the beginning of the end for occupy.

What better way to stop a movement? Destroy it within by overwhelming it with some of the very people it is fighting for.

[Earth_First]

79. I've said this once and I'll keep repeating it...

One our biggest supporters on several working groups who is here everyday and well into the night is one of Rochesters displaced citizens.

We're glad to have him and openly welcome anyone to join us.

Their behavior is treated no differently than any other individual at OccupyRochester, there is a system of conduct that we ALL adhere to, regardless of socioeconomic background, and any deviation from those guidelines will result in our asking you to leave.

[rainbow4321]

80. If they are going to be productive member of the camps

then of course they should be welcome. Even little gestures like picking up around camp or other domestic chores would make a difference or joining in the marches.
Showing up when food is served and leaving right after, that is another story .

Here in Dallas, downtown cops were directing people just released from county jail to the Occupier camp, telling them that they would get free food and a tent to sleep in.

One guy showed up at midnight, when the Occupiers had already gone to bed for the night, demanding "dinner". Turns out, he, also, had been directed there by local law enforcement. He was angry when they tried to tell him that dinner time was over and, no, he could not take one of their tents to crash in til morning.

The overall feeling I get from our Occupiers is that they will warmly welcome anyone, homeless or not, if that person wants to occupy IF that person shows an interest in doing their part in keeping the camp running. Using the place as a daily soup kitchen, THAT is not welcome. Bringing any kind of homemade or other weapon, also not welcome.

Once it was being realized that they were hearing the same thing from numerous not-so-welcome persons (i.e The police told us to come here for food/shelter), the Occupiers sent out an open letter to the police department. It was posted on the local Occupy website and the local media also got a copy. It basically laid out what the police and local jailers were doing. Within 2 hours, the police dept sent one of their brass to the camp to try and work things out, promising to investigate.


Of course, in an attempt to once again make the Occupiers look bad, the media will spin everything to say that Occupiers around the country are shunning the homeless.

[lunatica]

82. So it seems the Occupy group handled this pretty well

But one example of someone demanding to be fed after hours doesn't make a trend across the board. This is what I'm talking about. Are you willing to think the worst of a whole class of people because the police sent someone who was just released from jail?

Do you know the fastest growing homeless group are women veterans? Do you think if they show up they're giving the media justification to trash the OWS? I don't think you even have to answer that. My point is the homeless are mostly not criminals. Some of them served our country. Some of them are entire families who've lost everything. And I think the OWS needs to at least discuss the issue in terms of their (our) cause. It isn't easy to start a social revolution when things get sticky, like on this issue.

http://www.kltv.com/story/15534474/women-are-the-fastest-growing-group-of-homeless-veterans

[nc4bo]

84. They did exactly the right thing...

Interview/talk to confirm police are doing this, document it then get it out via media(whatever form it takes) and hold the PD accountable.

Call them out on their actions!

If city or state workers are going to be referring people to OWS then the city or state should also assist in providing food, shelter, restrooms, medical/mental personnel etc. assistance to the occupiers.