Why do people fear Greek democracy?

[Renew Deal]

Finally something is done right in Greece. The future of Greek life is put in the hands of the people. The citizens of Greece now can decide if they want to have a massive bank bailout rammed down their throats. Why do the banksters, the Germans, the French, and others fear this? Why should the Greeks be forced to bear the burden of the German bankers losses? If the Greeks choose to approve this cynical bailout, fine. And if they don't choose not to that's fine as well. Maybe the Greeks can drag Europe to a more democratic and just place once again!

[PassingFair]

1. The PTB don't want people or countries crawling from the wreckage like Iceland did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ed2qhaGSOXs

They want us to pay, and pay, and pay, and pay, and pay, and..........

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. Hammer, meet nail. nt

[dtexdem]

2. Because those who fear Greek democracy fear ALL democracy.

And not just in Europe but ESPECIALLY in the USA.

[Nye Bevan]

3. "The Economist": the Greeks have four options.

SO THE home of democracy is going to have a vote on whether to accept the latest European debt deal. At one level, the idea of "voting away your debts" seems rather odd. But voters have every right to do so, as long as they accept the consequences. In his book Golden Fetters, Barry Eichengreen argued that one reason the gold standard failed to work after the First World War was that most states had become democracies; regular doses of austerity were needed to ensure sound money. But that was politically impossible once the working classes had the vote, especially as politicians were worried about the threat of communist revolution. The problem of Greece is that public expenditure is higher than tax revenues, and the government cannot finance the gap in the markets. So the Greeks have four options.

1. Raise taxes. The population seems to be against that, with the property tax being particularly unpopular. The man on the Athens omnibus might well be in favour of raising taxes on the rich, or on companies, but it does not seem as if this strategy will be pursued with sufficient vigour, or will raise enough money.

2. Cut public spending. Public sector workers are against that option.

3. Borrow money from their EU neighbours. The neighbours are willing to hand over the money but only on condition of further austerity. This the Greeks also dislike.

4. Default outright. The result will probably be even more painful austerity. Cut off from the financial markets, the Greeks will have to balance the budget overnight. They may also need to rescue their banks, a capital-intensive process. Leaving the euro might also involve a rescue of the corporate sector, which would find its revenues in (devalued) drachma and its debts in euros.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2011/11/greek-referendum

[onenote]

4. as much as anything, the fear is uncertainty

That's what causes the market to fluctuate more than a fear of democracy per se.

[Indydem]

5. Seriously?

This isn't about democracy. This is about Greece fulfilling their obligations, paying back the debt they incurred in their poor choices, and not dragging down the entire European (world?) economy.

Why do the Greek people, who've been living easy on other people's dime for decades, get to decide the fates of millions of people who will lose their jobs and livelihoods if the world economy tanks?

[Renew Deal]

7. I see it the other way.

Greeks made the choices they made based on the information they had. The previous conservative government hid the debt from the people.

As for living easy on other peoples dime, that's BS. People lived their lives and did the right things as far as they knew. It turns out that the people were deceived by part of the government. Now the Greeks can chose to bear the entire burden themselves, or let some foreign bankers share the pain they caused by their "poor choices."

Do you also oppose food stamps, welfare, etc.? Do you think people on those programs are "living easy?"

[Nye Bevan]

8. One big problem is that the Greeks hate to pay taxes.

ATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.

So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.

That kind of wholesale lying about assets, and other eye-popping cases that are surfacing in the news media here, points to the staggering breadth of tax dodging that has long been a way of life here.

Such evasion has played a significant role in Greece’s debt crisis, and as the country struggles to get its financial house in order, it is going after tax cheats as never before.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html

[Renew Deal]

9. It is a big problem.

Spending money on enforcement means jobs. :evilgrin:

BTW, it's not just Greeks. Look around here.

[Yo_Mama]

29. That's right

Anyway, if the Greeks don't take this deal the Europeans will probably pull the plug, because the focus is shifting to Italy.

The Greek default never really mattered in the grand scheme of things - Italy is the threat. And Italy can default and revalue without much of an internal problem.

[Indydem]

10. Public Assistance =/= Retirement @ 60 and 25 Vacation Days

Quit comparing apples to oranges.

You seriously need to educate yourself ont he level of concessions that are being offered in this most recent package. In all honesty, the Greek people are making out quite well in this deal, relative to what could happen.

[Renew Deal]

11. I always find it odd that people attack how much money other people make.

I don't get what that's about. It happens in this country all the time. Greek people have the social arrangement they have which happens to be better than other countries have. You wouldn't want the same deal?

[pennylane100]

17. From what I can gather, the greeks have the same problem we do

the rich are not paying their fair share of their taxes. I am sure that is only part of the problem and while their social program of retiring at sixty sounds great, they may not have set up the proper funding for such a program.

[blindpig]

6. The ruling class will always fear a self conscious people.

The real question is why did the government, which has it's head firmly up the banker's ass, propose a referendum which almost surely will fail?

[pampango]

12. The far-right in Europe wants the EU to fail and sees a Greek default as a step in that direction.

They see a Greek default as leading to Greece's abandonment of the euro and maybe dropping out of the EU.

Since the far-right wants the EU weakened or dismantled, a Greek default serves their purposes quite well. If Greeks get a referendum on accepting the bailout, shouldn't other countries get a referendum on whether to offer a bailout? The right would love that.

[Renew Deal]

14. I think you've found the mortal flaw of the EU.

They have no stake in each others lives.

[Pigheaded]

13. The Greeks borrowed money

And don't want to pay it back

PH

[Renew Deal]

15. The banks leant it, even though the Greeks were incapable of paying.

:shrug:

[RaleighNCDUer]

26. That sounds familiar. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. It's dangerous to let the people have a say in their own fate.

They might decide that it's not in their own best interests to let the bosses decide what happens to them.

“The shepherd always tries to persuade the sheep that their interests and his own are the same.” Marie-Henri Beyle - aka Stendhal

[Renew Deal]

18. How true.

:thumbsup:

[FarCenter]

19. Europe needs to be unified between the Rhine and the Urals, north of the Alps/Danube

The countries west of the Rhine and south of the Alps/Danube do not have the social and natural resources to succeed.

A unification of the lands in the former German, Austro/Hungarian, and Russian empires makes much more economic sense.

[Renew Deal]

20. I'm not sure it needs to be unified at all.

They basically have a financial arrangement with no cultural or societal stake in each others lives. Instead of working together on this stuff, there is resentment. I'm not convinced that the EU has benefited peoples lives.

[FarCenter]

21. Individual European countries are too small to be economically successful by themselves

And central Europe lacks many of the needed natural resources.

A united northern Europe would be more coherent culturally, and it would have the resources, especially energy resources from Russia, that it needs to succeed.

[RaleighNCDUer]

27. Define 'succeed'. You do know that Greece has existed for a very, very

long time. As have Italy and Spain. Each, in their time, ruled the fucking world. So where do you get off saying they are incapable of succeeding?

There is NOTHING inherent to the North European (dare I say 'Aryan'?) lands that makes them capable of success over their neighbors.

[FarCenter]

31. Greece has been a province of something else since roughly 146 BC

Modern Greece only became a sovreign state again in 1832.

Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal have relatively little in the way of natural resources to sustain their economies. Nor do they have the manufacturing and commercial base to do so.

By contrast, the northern European plain is relatively rich agriculturally, there are mineral resources, and there are energy resources, especially in Russia.

Neither Italy nor Spain ruled the world. Neither had any influence over contemporaneous cultures in India or China, much less smaller empires in the Middle East, Central Asia and Southeast Asia.

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. Italy made the Mediterranean their private lake for a thousand years

under the Romans. Spain controlled 3/4 of the New World for hundreds of years. "Modern Greece only became a sovreign state again in 1832." That makes it 40 years older than Germany - Germany did not unify until 1871. Germany is the new kid on the European block, much younger than France, England, Poland, Austria, Hungary. And Germany isn't all that great for resources, either - that's why it invaded Czechoslovakia (mineral resources & industrial capacity) and the Balkans (Balkan oil fields) and Poland (agricultural lands) during WW2. Does that mean that without its neighbors' resources it is doomed to be unsuccessful?

The Realpolitik of resources has never been anything more than an excuse for aggressor nations to seize their neighbors' resources.

Most of the world's nations would be, by your definition, too small to succeed. The European nations did not join the EU because they were too small to succeed - they joined because of a mutual advantage offered by being part of an economic bloc and political block. Could they succeed without being part of that bloc? They have done so before, and probably will again.

What you are talking about is the rationale for empire - maybe you're on the wrong board, here.

[Gregorian]

22. For the same reason we fear death.

The unknown.

[Spider Jerusalem]

23. You're asking about democracy as it relates to the EU, which is really kind of amusing

in 2005, there were referendums on a new EU constitution. The vote in the Netherlands and France was "no". So the proposed constitution was repackaged as the Lisbon Treaty, and several countries were denied any chance at a referendum. Ireland voted "no" this time. That was the wrong answer. So it was sent back to the Irish voters for a second referendum. The EU is not interested in democracy and the will of the people of its member states if they aren't clever enough to know what's good for them.

[randome]

25. People elect leaders for a reason.

To lead. Not to abdicate their responsibilities and put every single matter up for a vote. If that was done on a regular basis, we wouldn't NEED leaders.

[Renew Deal]

34. I agree

But in Greece the "leaders" have constantly gone against the will of the people. Maybe G-Pap is throwing his hands in the air and giving up. I think it's a good thing either way.

[rdking647]

28. im not sure the greeks know what a rejection of the euro would mean

lets say they go back to the drachma.. then what.. you would have a couple of immediate issue
1. massive inflation.. the drachma would have to be massively devalued..
2. they would be shut out of the credit markets.

im not saying that wouldnt be better than austerity.. I dont know. but im not sure the greek people realize that is what would happen if the left

[Renew Deal]

35. Don't underestimate them.

They probably know more about it than most people here. They are living with it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

36. Iceland was told the same thing. nt

[Yo_Mama]

30. They don't

The leaders are just ascribing the European sovereign chaos to the Greek referendum because they are so afraid of telling the truth about Italy.

The action is in Italy - Greece doesn't even matter at this point.

[FreeJoe]

32. Fear it? I don't.

That said, I don't think the Greeks have much in the way of choices. Their government is spending more money than it is taking in. It owes a lot of money. They can accept help coupled with demands for austerity or they can reject the help and lose the ability to borrow money. If they do the latter, they get austerity anyway. No matter how you slice it, government spending in Greece is going to be lower.

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. Better to choose austerity on your own terms than have it imposed upon you.

Imposed austerity means a huge flow of finances OUT of the country. Chosen austerity, and loss of borrowing power, mean a loss of high-interest cash INTO the country. With chosen austerity they can re-build their local economies and save themselves those interest payments. It might be painful, but they'd be out of debt FAR sooner.