How much cause and effect should we expect from protests?

[bigtree]

I understand bringing pressure from the 'streets' to our politics. It's a good way of attracting attention to a cause and galvanizing opinion behind the protestors' concerns -- both public opinion and political opinion.

I'm pressed though, to find some aspect of the movements around the country which intend to actually point the way to an actual realization of goals and initiatives that folks participating say they care deeply about.

Jobs or health care, for instance. Many protestors are angry about the economy and are looking for a way to survive. Many are frustrated with the lack of affordable health care and the like.

The protest movements will be challenged to organize their energy behind something more than the nebulous and disparate demands that have characterized the majority of the protests so far. Maybe it's still too soon for the type of organizing that I'd expect to produce something concrete in the way of moving toward some of the solutions folks have in mind.

I've had to live my precarious life with the dictum that I can't afford to give up the things which barely sustain me in favor of absolutely nothing. That's the question I have for the energetic and impressive folks who take the time to put their views out there in such a public and vulnerable way. What moves into the vacuum we intend to create with our protests?

More importantly, what are the protests offering folks who need action NOW? Is it realistic or advantageous to expect folks to abandon the most effective political platform they've been able to manage, so far, in favor of a movement which promises nothing more substantial to folks than to tear their fragile coalition of Democrats apart?

We all know the shortcomings of politics and the failings of our individual and collective pols we advanced to office. Yet, tearing at the seams of the party without offering any viable alternative is just ceding that political power and influence to the republican opposition.

There needs to be, at some point soon, a major effort to find folk who share protestors views, who are willing to run the actual gauntlet of public opinion and place themselves in the running for office. Not to just co-opt the system -- not to just rail outside of it -- but to actually challenge it from within.

I realize that it's probably too early in the movement to expect such a fine point to be put on the protests, but many groups have already begun to work on the difficult task of organizing all of the angst into a focused message which can be translated into real action; real political effect and not just the hope that someone, somewhere in the political arena will be knocked down a peg.

It's easy to tear down, much more difficult to work to build the necessary coalitions of support -- 'outside' and inside the political arena -- in enough numbers to actually make a substantial difference in moving our goals and initiatives forward to realization. That's the process I'm looking for -- not just the exhilaration of the protest -- but a substantive and sustainable path toward the actual realization of the things we say we want.

[KurtNYC]

1. BofA rolled back their fees

bankers are being arrested. there is a national on-going dialog about Wall Streets role in the depression and the road out of it, etc, etc.

You don't have to wonder what WILL happen because it IS happening.

[bigtree]

8. I see that. I see the cumulative value of the protests.

I also see a lot of chaos, I think justified chaos with such genuine frustration and need from many of the participants. It has an effect, especially in a presidential election season. But, is that the protests intend? That's not what I'm being told. I'm to understand (from many, many sources) that there isn't any intention from the protestors of working within the system to effect some legislative effort or the other.

That's pretty convenient, in my view. Where's the responsibility in all of that for moving the issues that are described as important? Where's the direction? Just throw it all out there and whatever falls from the sky will suffice?

I see a hands-off approach from the political responsibility of organizing like-minded folks into a working coalition that has a chance at actually moving legislation, instead of just nibbling at it from the outside hoping the wind changes to the direction we're blowing.

[mmonk]

2. It's about right and wrong and what if any kind of society we will have

and if it is to have any economic justice. Therefore, it's whole premise is crystal clear. So then is the direction it seeks.

[bigtree]

3. I saw a similar explanation

"They know what to do, so just do it" was the sentiment. I'm good with that. I understand that, if we're talking to some pols.

I'm less than comfortable with assuming that sentiment of your can be translated into something concrete and sustaining. You could argue that many of the pols are already looking for 'economic justice' or already distinguishing between 'right and wrong' -- just not to the degree or in the direction that we'd like. Too nebulous for politics.

[mmonk]

5. Then maybe this might help. Politicians have ignored phone calls

and petitions by constituents for the most part. How could the proposed cuts to medicare and such by the super committee be explained when poll after poll shows that is not a direction the majority of the public would like to take? Protests arise from ignored grievances (the real ones, not the directed contrived ones such as the Tea Party). After awhile when conversations can no longer ignore the the conditions the protestors are protesting, a politician decides to join the fight, then more. It's how it has always worked.

[bigtree]

11. I get that

I could understand a movement, for example, that put saving Medicare or Social Security from cuts at the head of their complaints. That's specific to what's going on in the legislative arena.

I would note that there are plenty of whacked-out notions that arose from the tea party that have taken the form of amendments and bills which are being actively pushed from within as we speak.

I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder where a similar effort from our protestors will manifest itself?

[mmonk]

24. The Tea Party has representation and that is why it has amendments.

It was created by the same powerful influences. The 99% don't have that platform because it didn't arise from a politically created platform and thus, no politicians to attempt a legislative agenda. It is in itself a voice for change in its favor it isn't getting from party politics. If it becomes just a movement for one piece of legislation such as preserving medicare, it will fail to create conditions to do so since there are already organizations created doing that fight. The fight of the 99% is the fight of the pendulum that swings America back towards an economic justice track currently not afforded by ballot.

[bigtree]

26. okay.

I think the end effect of the movement is unpredictable and possibly volatile if the frustration level gets too much, but, we'll see. I hope for more.

[jwirr]

23. But even in your statement the means to achieve this goal is missing.

How do we do this without losing everything to the rethugs? I assume that there are some things about our government that we want to keep. I for one want to keep the safety net if we can.

[mmonk]

27. Actually, achieving the goals in my opinion look bleaker

without the occupy movement or a narrowing down to a point or two and getting ignored on the overall direction and twists of politicians. In other words, a pendulum swing is needed.

[jwirr]

41. Yes, I am very glad they are out there and without them I do not

think we can even hope for change in a big way. All I am saying that there has to be political change that matches their actions and most likely that means people like you and me doing what we do best. Advocate.

[Puzzledtraveller]

4. we are up against a behemoth, your concern is noteworthy

[bigtree]

9. I've got more than just 'concern'

I have a lifetime commitment to the issues that protestors purport to care about. I am, at frequent intervals throughout the year, a protestor. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask others what they expect to come out of these efforts and what they believe the effect will be?

Are you just 'cliqueing' with your sweet selves, or do you intend to galvanize support around your efforts from a broader spectrum of Americans?

[Rex]

43. Purport? You couldn't be any more insincere then that?

What laziness. You just sit back and let the real protesters do their job. Maybe you can learn something from the pros. :rofl:

[Rex]

44. What concern? I don't see any of that from the OP.

Just par the course etc..

[leftstreet]

6. If the 'political platform' was so fucking 'effective,' maybe people wouldn't be protesting?

:shrug:

Ya think?

[bigtree]

13. that makes sense, in fact, that's pretty obvious

. . . so where will the actual effort to substantively change that platform come from? Is it just a hope and a prayer, or is there some other political platform you can offer right now to elevate your concerns to the level that they can actually be realized in the form of some action or law? Are we going to target individual legislators? Will we run some of our own?

What's the strategy that you would advocate to advance those concerns of yours beyond the 'street corner'?

[leftstreet]

15. No, you said this was 'the most effective political platform...'

So you now agree it suckz?

[bigtree]

16. that we've been able to manage, so far

I've never seen a party platform that I've agreed entirely with. I've always had to leverage my personal beliefs and goals and coalesce with like-minded pols who agree to carry my initiatives forward.

I'm not much for tearing the house I helped build down just to stand out in the cold.

[bigtree]

32. do you know of another one which is able to advance legislation?

It may be pathetic, but it's all we have right now. You can pretend that they didn't accomplish anything meaningful, but I'm going to disagree. Modest reforms during this administration with record legislative progress. I understand that none of what they've done is meaningful to you. Means a great deal to the working-class Americans who were able to take advantage of the few initiatives they managed.

The Democratic party remains the most effective vehicle we have right now that has any potential at all to elevate our initiatives and concerns to a level where they can be considered, voted on, and translated into action or law. There is no other comparable platform which has that potential.

[suston96]

7. The protests are an excellent display of.......

....."yes, we can."

By that I mean that the constitutionally explicit right to assemble is being effectively exercised with little opposition and just a smattering of mishap.

When the time comes, demands will be made or grievances will be declared and all will listen and pay attention to those who could, and did.

[TwilightGardener]

10. I think there's value in raising public awareness, letting political figures

and media know that regular people have recognized--and are angry--that they are being screwed by the corporate and financial world. I agree with that message, they speak for me in that regard. That said, there are aspects of this whole thing that I think could have been done better, or should be done better going forward. Number one: Hone the damn message. If it were up to me, it would be three things: Start hiring Americans again (since they're sitting on profits), Stop offshoring our jobs, Raise our wages. Stuff like student loans and foreclosures and health insurance are valid concerns, but hell, we'd be able to afford that stuff if the jobs and wage picture improved.

Secondly, de-emphasize tents and "living" on site. I have no idea what's wrong with following most other protest models and just showing up everyday for a time. And when the weather gets bad, go home and eat. And when it improves, come back. It's a mistake to draw attention to the tactics (which may not always be feasible to keep up) and not the message. And if you're going to pick representatives to speak to Colbert, don't pick weirdos who do strange woo-woo wiggly-finger shit that I saw last night--ugh.

[HappyMe]

21. This. Exactly.

People want and need jobs, first and foremost.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Those weirdos were doing the hand signals used at the general assembly

I got a serious suggestion...go down there near the general assembly shut up and listen

Oh and jobs and outsourcing are part of what is organically emerging.

[jwirr]

29. I love the hand signs - imagine being in jail and using their own

language to hold them together. This would not be the first time that movements have created a language.

[TheKentuckian]

12. Changing the landscape beats the shit out of even hundreds of compromised

politicians passing lip service and status quo strengthening bills.

Getting the masses off the bullshit and on the problems is epic in scale. Now is hardly the time to try to fold the movement into the partisan food fight. Only when the people can see and clearly understand the problems can the bogus solutions and silly rhetoric we are fed be rejected so that real answers can even enter "serious" political dialog.

The system is not yet primed to accept serious correction and must not be allowed to blunt the energy that has some small potential to change our direction.

On a more personal note, though I'm sure it applies to many, many more folks, you are off base to hold the belief that what little you have that you need to survive is not be systematically strip mined from you and completely withheld from others and especially those that come behind you.

The safety of the status quo is greatly overstated, it is the feeling of being sucked under never to be above water again that is driving much of the angst and is at or near the center of the desperate drive to just tear it all down that comes from some.
It is simply a matter of what is most greatly feared the black hole or the risks of the plans to escape it/avoid being caught in the event horizon.

Without a very compelling argument that we aren't dealing with a black hole, it is hard to make a case that almost anything isn't going to be at very worst, the same.

Sometimes there is no safe path and if the road is safe but comes to a bitter end, destruction has been but put off and likely made more severe.

[Blue Meany]

14. I think protests can do a lot to move the political discussion

in one direction or another (witness the Tea Party). Sometimes the most militant, intransigent movements are the most effective. Why? Because by contrast they make others, who are willing to talk and compromise, look very reasonable. MLK was portrayed as a radical until Stokley Carmichael cam along. Earth First, which issues demands and engages in disruptive direct action doesn't acheive it stated goals, but it creates the space for other environmentalists to ahceive some progress.

So far, the Occupy movement as been non-violent, idealistic and has not compromised its principles or the governing processes that it has established. At a local level, where governing authorities are less corrupted, there often is cooperation between the occupiers and municipal govts. But this is not the kind of movement that is easy for higher authorities to deal with (read: co-opt), so they want to avoid it. This should creat space for those advocating progressive policies to accomplish something, because they alternative is to try to talk to a leaderless, angry, mob (from their perspective).

I also think it's great that some of the occupations are issuing local demands, since it is much easier to influence local policies, especially when officials may already be sympathetic with their goals. If they are successful at influencing things at a local and state level, it will be hard to ignore them as a national force.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Three major ones that protests played a critical role

Sufragist movement

Civil rights movement

Labor movement

You are really having an issue with people taking to the streets.

My recommendation, dress for your weather, go to your local occupy...shut up and listen. I am serious. This is unlike anything you have seen in MODERN us history.

[bigtree]

18. you're just misinterpreting what I've said, and ignoring my point

. . . about taking responsibility on the political side of the equation.

If you want to play the game of 'with us or against us' on these protests here you can certainly get plenty of hurrahs and high-fives. But, I assume you want to persuade folks outside of your present circle of interests to adopt your cause(s). I've aligned with many over the years. I've expressed initial support for these OWS protests.

I'm just looking for some concrete direction and focus which intends to do more than just rail from the corner. I'm looking for some focus from these protests which puts all of the energy behind actually moving our political institutions in the direction we'd like. Something more than just the nebulous angst that folks understandably are expressing right now. Some path to effecting (or affecting) actual legislation which would advance the concerns into action or law.

If you want to use me as some kind of foil just because I'm questioning the direction of the protests I think that's just a waste. Do you intend to galvanize support for your cause among a wider circle than your cheering section?

By the way, EVERY one of the movements you mentioned had a legislative goal. Every one of the movements you listed (and their participants) worked to build coalitions within the political system to effect their goals.

And 'shut up and listen'? You've GOT to be kidding. Good way to turn folks off. I thought folks were encouraged to bring their concerns to the movement. Is there really just one view which pervades every participants compunction to protest? Ridiculous.

[Marazinia]

19. I have the same questions you do

I'm asking them, and I think a lot of others are, too, and we're all waiting with great interest to see what develops.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. This is unlike anything you have seen

Go down there, you will be struck by how apolitical they are. For heaven sakes even Thomas Friedman got that. They are as apolitical, no talk of parties, as they were in Tahrir square. People are talking of what ails us, and you know what? They rightfully so blame a broken system.

Your historic equivalent to that is actually labor.

You are trying to bludgeon a square into a round hole.

As to support it is growing. As to a concrete political program, it is organically emerging. As to organization, some camps are far more organized than others. As to leaders, at the fear of scaring you, read Bakunin. I don't think they are truly aware but that is what they are using, and they don't want that leader that you can identify out of the very real fear somebody will eat lead.

But if you truly want to start to understand this...go near the GA shut up and listen. I guarantee you will learn something. And our political leaders on both parties should do the same.

[bigtree]

25. I have been 'down there'

It's really pretty encouraging to see so many folks committing themselves in this way.

I also see the same disparate interests and goals that characterize most of the D.C. protests that I attend. The difference here is the utter lack of direction.

The message I got from the various fine folks assembled that I spoke with over several days is that, 'Everything's broken so I'm sitting out here; outside of the political process; railing against the system until things change.'

And the variety of complaints from these fine folks is almost endless. It's not as if I disagree with their complaints, I'm just wondering if we're going to eventually do anything more with all of this energy and commitment other than just have folks sit outside in the cold?


I don't think that's too much to ask. But, again, you've told me to just shut up and listen. Who am I to be so marginalized by this movement? Is there really a need to put those with questions about the direction of the movement on the sidelines. I didn't sense as much of a unanimity in actual belief among protestors as I did in their determination to remain engaged. That commitment is admirable and encouraging, but it would be sad if it turns out to be more volume in these protests than actual legislative effect.

'Shut up and listen'? Really? Do you hear yourself?

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. You have said it above you invested in this house

The political program is emerging. But you got it, they are angry. A group doesn't believe in the political supystem as it stands right now. That does not mean a platform will not emerge, it is emerging.

And it is unlike anything you have seen. Dime on dollar a few people will run. A few will join parties. A few will drop out. And a program is emerging. Professional pols or those invested need to shut up and listen, because you know what? None has truly listened, or we'd have single payer and no more free trade treaties that don't benefit any of them.

The old addage from another radical comes to mind. Those who make peaceful revolution...and they are well on the road of radicalization. By the way, another historical analogy...you thing there was an actual concrete program in 1740? Nope...there were a bunch of disparate demands.

[bigtree]

30. thanks

I expect one to emerge, as well, if folks are really serious about their demands.

And, there were very public figures like Susan Anthony and Fredrick Douglass who appealed to and worked with the Lincoln presidency to further their aims. More who weren't as celebrated I would imagine. It wasn't the stone age.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. The concrete comparisons to this in us history is both labor

And very specicifically before committees of correspondence and all that, round the 1740s. There was no specific agenda... One did not emerge for another fifteen years. Technology is making this way faster, and it is global.

[Marrah_G]

31. I seem to remember other posts like this from you recently

or amI thinking of someone else? If it is you, why do the protests bother you so much? If you don't like what they represent or how they are doing things then just don't get involved. Instead put your energy into a project that you do think has merit.

[bigtree]

33. you don't appear to have read them.

Is there really no room to question these movements? Is there no interest at all in generating an understanding among folks out here as to what direction these protests intend to take and what participants expect to happen, concretely, in the form of legislation.

I'm sorry. You are just way off base trying to make it appear that I'm objecting to these protests. I think it's just wrongheaded to pounce on folks who question the direction of these individual and collective movements. What kind of democratic action doesn't invite questions and criticism?

I'm just asking what direction they will take, and counseling that I believe they should have a legislative goal at the head of these efforts in order to transform the agitation into meaningful and sustainable action.

[Marrah_G]

34. I disagree with you on this

I don't believe there should be a legislative goal at this point, nor should there be any leaders. Right now it is still in the process of making people aware of what is happening.

[bigtree]

36. fair enough

we can certainly disagree.

I'm hoping for the best from these frustrated, yet determined folks. Here's to 'awareness'.

[Marrah_G]

47. Awareness is always a good thing

I am also hoping for the best. No one knows where this will go, I just hope the end result is positive on the side of the people.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. "A journey of a thousand li starts with a single step." Lao Tzu

This is a step in a journey that has no clearly defined end. The American Revolution, and most other revolutions, started with protests about a variety of grievances and only vague notion of what was needed to resolve them.

I see this, hopefully, as the beginning of the peoples discovery of their own power against the forces of the oligarchy that rule this country and their lives. Where will it go? How will it end? Who knows? Just as the Sons of Liberty and Committees of Correspondence didn't know that their protests would end in a new country, or the women who marched on Versailles knew that what they did would end in a republic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Go farther back...those came later

The 1740s are fascinating because they did look like this...to a point.

Technology will, is making, the process faster though.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. Trying to fit a peoples' movement into a predictable structure is a fool's errand.

At this point, as in past cataclysms, we may be able to find "causes" but the outcomes are almost entirely unpredictable. I see this as just another indicator of the collapsing empire of the United States. Europe is trying to adjust to the changing times, we are resisting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Absolutely

And that is the problem we are having.

At a meta level revolutions and popular uprisings have a rythm to them. Ghandhi summarized them well. You can identify the big picture of the process. It is in the nitty gritty that each movement becomes unique.

I try to give people signal posts at the meta level. Nor do I expect those signal posts to be understood. That is also part of it.

I am sure the fine folks in the 1740s pointed to their hero, sadly lost mostly to us, of a hundred years before, Bacon's revolt.

[Rex]

42. 'I can't afford to give up the things which barely sustain me in favor of absolutely nothing'

WOW! :rofl:

Thanks for making your true feelings known about OWS. :eyes:

I promise you the people in the streets are going to 'win', much to your chagrin.

Sorry...'deal with it.'

EDIT - what a completely hysterical OP! You ARE scared! Wow!

:rofl:

[bigtree]

45. feeling superior?

I'm a night stocker at a grocery store. Is this movement meant to 'scare' me or my family? Why the fuck do you believe this OWS movement should be threatening a struggling working man? What the fuck is wrong with you? Creep.

[Edweird]

46. Fear, uncertainty, doubt.....