A Last Bastion of Civility, the South, Sees Manners Decline

[onpatrol98]

A Last Bastion of Civility, the South, Sees Manners Decline
By KIM SEVERSON
Published: November 1, 2011

ATLANTA — One August night, two men walked into a popular restaurant attached to this city’s fanciest shopping mall. They sat at the bar, ordered drinks and pondered the menu. Two women stood behind them.

A bartender asked if they would they mind offering their seats to the ladies. Yes, they would mind. Very much.

Angry words came next, then a federal court date and a claim for more than $3 million in damages.

The men, a former professional basketball player and a lawyer, also happen to be African-American. The women are white. The men’s lawyers argued that the Tavern at Phipps used a policy wrapped in chivalry as a cloak for discriminatory racial practices.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/02/us/southern-manners-on-decline-some-say.html?_r=1&hp

[Hosnon]

1. I'm a graduate of Social, Inc.

Horrible at the time but it's amazing how useful those skills are as you get older.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

2. I gotta side partly with the men on this one.

They had the seats first, and it was not the place of the bartender to even suggest that they give them up. It might have been nice if they did voluntarily, but manners cannot be forced on adults. But I doubt the bartender had any racial motive, and the lawsuit was rightfully decided.

[Odin2005]

3. The South's authoritarian "Yes Sir/Ma'am" norms are not Civility.

If you want to see REAL civility come to Fargo.

[SheilaT]

6. Yep. I have long felt that the much-vaunted

"Southern Hospitality" just isn't very hospitable, at least not to outsiders. There's a veneer of politeness (Yes Sir/Ma'am) that just doesn't run very deep.

I expect that Southerners, like most people, are genuinely polite and kind and nice to people they know or come into frequent contact with, but I've always felt a distinct chill directed at me, and obvious non-Southerner.

Added on edit:
And I think this particular incident is both not at all representative of any degree or lack thereof of Southern politeness, but more a genuine indicator of the times we live in. I'm inclined to agree that the bartender was somewhat out of line in asking the men to give up their seats, but certainly the entire incident escalated well beyond what it should have.

[coalition_unwilling]

9. If you want to see REAL civility, come to Occupy Los Angeles: grimy,

yes, but civil (in all the best senses of that word) beyond measure.

[Hosnon]

17. Says you.

I disagree.

[Liberal Veteran]

4. As someone who grew up in the south, I always found it to be a mixed bag.

Equal parts public politeness, social snobbery, and ill-mannered trashiness.

[Taverner]

5. Yeah those lynchings sure were good manners and civil...

:eyes:

[lpbk2713]

7. They were "asked", not told.

The decision was left up to them. It's not worth three million. They need to get over themselves.

[MineralMan]

8. Civility is more than polite words.

Bless their hearts...

[CurtEastPoint]

10. From what I read locally it was always a custom for ANY man at the bar to give a seat to a WOMAN.

Much ado about attitude, I think.

[Hosnon]

18. I'm shocked that isn't the rule regardless of location.

It's not a sexism thing - just polite.

[Mudoria]

11. I would have given up the seats

It was the polite thing to do. The same way I would have held the door open for them had we entered at the same time.

[madmom]

12. I was always told "ladies" don't set at a bar, at least no without a male companion. They

were considered trampy or "available" if they did. That is also southern learnin'.

[ladjf]

13. For what it's worth: For a year, I regularly took MARTA to work

into downtown Atlanta. On several occasions I saw young black men give up their seats to older women, both black and white. I never saw one white man give up a seat to anyone. (I'm Caucasian)

[xfundy]

14. Old-style Southern 'civility' didn't extend to blacks

I grew up in the south. The celebrated 'polite society' didn't extend to everyone by far.

Yes, the civil rights act was passed, equality for all, etc, etc., but the bartender should have known better. I hope they drop the lawsuit, but it's symbolically justified, IMO, by the remnants of pain caused by years of abuse by "Southern hospitality."

[LeftinOH]

15. What made the women think they had any right to claim seats that were already taken?

Their gender alone? Tradition? Phooey. I'd be pretty pissed if some strangers expected me and an acquaintance to relinquish our seats (in a bar) simply because they wanted them. It's a bar, not a lifeboat.

[LanternWaste]

16. Which is precisely why I give up my seat.

"it's a bar, not a lifeboat..."

Which is precisely why I give up my seat. No harm, no foul to me, and it's certainly a nice gesture almost always appreciated.

However, I do understand your dogmatic insistence on first-come, first-serve as it's becoming more and more trendy these days to illustrate how much we value our comfort and convenience over that of others.

[Hosnon]

19. Agreed. I wouldn't be able to really enjoy myself at the bar with two women having to stand.

Guess that Social actually did imprint me pretty hard, haha.