Why Guy Fawkes?

[DavidDvorkin]

The American idolizing of Guy Fawkes that started with the movie "V for Vendetta" is really starting to annoy me. Sure, that's what we want to do: Blow up the president and both houses of Congress, create anarchy, and institute a theocracy.

I enjoyed the movie, but it was as silly as the absurd "Gladiator", which depicted Marcus Aurelius as a hero of democracy.

[dipsydoodle]

1. Take care of talking

sense.

[Leopolds Ghost]

61. All: Isn't it ironic that the OP, in criticizing left for appropriating symbols, has an "A" avatar?

Talk about inappropriate cribbing off of a political movement he detests.

And yes, I know what his version of the "A" stands for, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

[Liberal Veteran]

2. It's just a symbol, not a manifesto.

[Lex]

4. Yes, I was just going to say that symbols are rarely perfect

through and through.

[Jamastiene]

3. Why do you hate bonfires?

:P

:hide:

[dmallind]

5. Not only that, but he was a minor figure in the plot stupid enough to be caught when others were not

[EOTE]

6. I think it's less what he stood for than what he stood against.

I think he's a very scary figure for tyrannical governments as he shows what a dedicated citizen or two could possibly do given the chance.

[Recursion]

43. He stood against allowing Protestants freedom to worship in England (nt)

[Nuclear Unicorn]

46. But Guy Fawkes is the moral equivalent of Tim McVeigh

He thought he was fighting tyranny too. Fighting should be a last resort and it should be based on --

* what are you fighting against?

* what are you fighting for?

* how will you fight?

* when will you stop fighting?

Fawkes and McVeigh failed on all of those accounts, no matter how many lies they told themsevles to justify their acts.

[Posteritatis]

50. Fawkes was not exactly a civil libertarian. (nt)

[Codeine]

7. Because big-budget Warner Brothers films are as close to art as most people are

are capable of understanding these days. We'll take our political symbols licensed from a film company and mass-produced in Chinese factories, thanks.

[Leopolds Ghost]

60. V For Vendetta is a Graphic Novel, not a Warner Brothers movie.

The author, a famous novelist who is on the Time Magazine best books of the 20th Century, wants nothing to do with the film version.

[Codeine]

62. Yes, as a comics fan I am well aware of that,

but the vast majority of V fans have never read Alan Moore's work, but they've all watched the film.

[Lint Head]

8. Fawkes is a symbol of one person standing against the system.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. even though his purpose was to restore the power of the multinational Catholic church

in Britain. Fawkes was not just 'one person'; he was an agent for a foreign power.

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. Never mind that the government of Fawkes time forbade Catholics

holding any office, and Catholics were second-class citizens. A person could be arrested for simply being a Catholic, under the charge he was an agent of a foreign power if he got someone pissed at him - he didn't have to try to blow up Parliament.

That is why we have separation of church and state - the founders were well aware of the religious civil wars in England where believers on either side believed they were the chosen ones.

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. The point is that, for freedom of religion, he was no better than those he wanted to kill

and he was willing to kill a lot of people for his cause. It's not that he was an awful person with purely innocent enemies; it's just that he makes a crap symbol for 'the individual against the system'.

[RaleighNCDUer]

38. No one says he was for freedom of religion - he was just a pissed off guy.

The movie, however, expropriated the image of the pissed off guy and gave it a deeper meaning.

[DavidDvorkin]

17. But he wasn't doing that

He was standing up against a country going its own way and allowing its citizens some freedom of religion.

[Jamastiene]

20. Not if they were Catholic. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

9. Because we are secretly anarchist-theocrats, even though that is a contradiction. nt

[ChandlerJr]

10. Because he had the coolest mask

It's the optics. Most people in this country can't be bothered with the real story. Almost as strange as showing up with teabags on your hat.

[NightWatcher]

11. who else ya got? We'd look pretty goofy in Ben Franklin masks?

but the idea to use anarchy as a means to clean house is a better idea to some than just elect a few slightly diferent politicians who promise change but dont deliver. Break the whole damn system, then replace it with real people powered poltics.



Plus the site of hundreds or thousands of people in masks scares the shit out of the power structure.


(on edit:) I'm a fan of masks

[DavidDvorkin]

14. Wat Tyler

[dipsydoodle]

24. Goofy masks would be cool though.

.

[Chan790]

63. John Brown.

American Badass since 1800. Worst case scenario, the moron teabaggers are confused as to why we're all dressing up as Moses.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eShirl]

15. do you also complain about Robin Hood, Saint Nicholas, Jesus?

[DavidDvorkin]

19. If it's appropriate to do so, yes.

[marmar]

16. Way to miss a point.

nt

[Courtesy Flush]

18. A bit of trivia

The reason we call ourselves "guys" today is because of Fawkes. He became a folk hero, and schoolchildren used to dress up as him. "Guy" came to mean a shabbily-dressed man (because of how he was portrayed by kids), and later, it was used to mean any man.

[geardaddy]

26. "He became a folk hero"

Is that why they burn "guys" every November 5th?

[Courtesy Flush]

29. Maybe "anti-hero" is the word I needed. nt

[geardaddy]

30. That's apt.

[Xithras]

31. I believe...

...that the representation has more to do with burning Catholics than burning Guy Fawkes. That's a fairly nasty tradition.

[geardaddy]

34. That's probably true.

On bonfire night they were prone to burning effigies of the pope, as well.

[Spider Jerusalem]

47. He didn't become a folk hero

children made effigies with rags and straw and cast-off clothing and went around begging a "penny for the guy". Then they burnt those effigies on bonfires on the anniversary of the Gunpowder Plot, 5 November. Still do. Come a few days from now, all over Britain, there'll be kids burning a Catholic in effigy and setting off fireworks.

[Marrah_G]

21. Its a symbol, a symbol of people finding the courage to stand up

There are probably symbols that you are okay with that I find offensive. That's the thing about humans, we each have our own opinions.

[mmonk]

22. Because people have seen "V" and understood its story

whereby they haven't studied Fawkes.

[Greybnk48]

23. Ooooooh! I like it even more now. Remember how the

Brits sang the song "Yankee Doodle" that was originally mocking Americans. Then we took it as our own and rammed it down their fucking throats! Remember that? It's a symbol. It hasn't anything to do with Guy Fawkes' original motive or Warner Bros. The movie hit a chord with people during the horror that was the Bush years and it has taken on a meaning of its own.

I just changed my avatar.

[RevStPatrick]

35. I did too...

At least for the next week or so.

[LanternWaste]

25. I imagine one may stretch any analogy

"Blow up the president and both houses of Congress, create anarchy, and institute a theocracy..."

I imagine one may stretch any analogy to the point in which it appears to mean the opposite of its actual agenda.

[RaleighNCDUer]

27. It would appear you enjoyed the movie without understanding it.

V for Vendetta is not a celebration of Guy Fawkes. It is a story of a man who wore a Guy Fawkes mask, who did NOT blow up "the president and both houses of Congress, create anarchy, and institute a theocracy" but destroyed an edifice (which was evacuated) which had become a symbol of a theocracy.

You got it all ass-backwards.

[Dawgs]

36. +1. People wear the Guy Fawkes mask because of the character in the movie.

One of the best movies of the past 10 years, IMO.

[Xithras]

28. Because sometimes the system is so corrupt...

...that the simplest solution is to just wipe the whole thing out and start over. It's the idea that the system is no longer capable of being fixed from within, and that only an external force can apply the changes needed. Fawkes is a representation of that ideal. He's a guy who tried to "blow the whole thing up" so they could start over.

I think the OWS thing is rather pointless overall, but I happen to agree with that assessment. Our system is irreparably broken, and I don't know what the fix is.

[yawnmaster]

32. As was mentioned earlier, because it is a cool mask. eom

[Bluenorthwest]

39. In 'V For Vendetta' the character V wears a Guy Fawkes mask

because he is lighting fires on Fawkes Night. Fawkes is not a character in the film, his story is not told in the film. The character V does not do any of the things you claim he does, not at all. The character V uses the holiday of bonfires and masks for his own day of action.
If you saw the film, you would know that the film does not depict Guy Fawkes at all. It is a work of futurist fiction, not a piece of history. Gladiator was posing as history, and actually depicted Aurelius, V For Vendetta did not depict any historical figures at all.

[Goblinmonger]

40. And it's a symbol that the movie completely watered down

from the graphic novel. Which is why Moore distanced himself from the film. The film took a British look at anarchy and anti-government and turned it into a "we hate Republicans" movie.

Yeah, I'm bitter about what they did to the graphic novel.

[hugo_from_TN]

41. He is the epitomy of a failure.

[LeftinOH]

42. Why are all those people wearing Patrick Stewart masks?

[Fire Walk With Me]

45. He said "Make it so".

[LoZoccolo]

44. lurk moar

[FarCenter]

48. 8 Historic Symbols That Mean The Opposite of What You Think

Despite anarchists' general failure to unite long enough to make any meaningful progress against their ideological enemies (democracy, capitalism, communism and Internet forum moderationism), they do have a few running themes and symbols in common. One of the most prominent symbols is the 17th century English revolutionary, Guy Fawkes, whose famed exploit was his attempt to blow up Parliament in order to destabilize the British government.

...
While anarchists may be right that Fawkes was the only person ever to enter Parliament with honest intentions, they've forgotten what those intentions were. Fawkes wasn't trying to destroy an evil theocracy, he was trying to install one.


http://www.cracked.com/article_18606_8-historic-symbols-that-mean-opposite-what-you-think.html

[Riftaxe]

49. Are you doubting those conformists who choose

to imitate a movie by a large corporation, in the name of individuality?

They are merely victims of mass marketing, I believe PT Barnum had an apropos quote which applies to the Fawkes folks.

[Leopolds Ghost]

64. And yet you claim to be educated than they are, yet you DON'T know V is a famous novel by Alan Moore

[Leopolds Ghost]

65. Oh, but of course it's a graphic novel

Those aren't worth discussing, only the movie version which came out 20 years after the influential book, right?

[Riftaxe]

66. That mask is not designed by moore and

is produced by a corporation that buys the rights for the image from another corporation, so people can parade around in it.

We are talking about the mask made famous by Warner Bros...

How else would you even identify the people in question as Fawkes Folks?

[Rex]

51. Umm...Gladiator was about revenge.

Democracy? Wow you are really grasping at straws!

[MedleyMisty]

52. Anonymous took the movie V as a symbol

Because in the movie, V takes on a government very much like ours and inspires the people to rise up against that government.

It's a story that appealed to a lot of people and its symbols became a part of their group culture. That happens sometimes, in human society. Sorry it gets up your ass.

[Huey P. Long]

54. Really. I think the fact it bugs people so much, and generally those who

like to find something to complain about, I think I like it even more.

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. So you think a fascist theocracy is 'vey much like' the Oabma administration?

I'm sorry you hate Democrats so much. Or is it that you've forgotten what the movie was about (ie a fascist theocratic government), and are blinded by Anonymous using a mask, and are unwilling to consider that maybe they fucked up their analogy a bit?

[Huey P. Long]

53. This question resurfacing again?

I'll support the people out in the rain and cold. They wear V masks. Its Anon's calling card. They've been vital to the protest.
People who find fault and complain? Not so much.

[pokerfan]

56. as absurd as erecting a statue of Mel Gibson in Scotland?

I enjoyed the movie, but it was as silly as the absurd "Gladiator", which depicted Marcus Aurelius as a hero of democracy.

Another example of confusing fiction with history...

After repairs were made, the statue was encased in a cage every night to prevent further vandalism. This only incited more calls for the statue to be removed as it then appeared that the Gibson/Wallace figure was imprisoned. The statue was described as "among the most loathed pieces of public art in Scotland."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braveheart#Wallace_Monument

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Why not? Symbols do change you know

[Lyric]

58. The name doesn't matter. The symbol does.

The character in the movie and graphic novel are what I think of when I see that mask--not Guy Fawkes.

[DirkGently]

59. Don't think it's actually got much to do with Guy Fawkes at this point. V & Anonymous, more like.

Symbols evolve. And the fact that the mask is irritating & vaguely creepy are nice bonuses.

[fascisthunter]

67. why is the sky blue?

...does it scare you.... buhahahahaahahhahaaha!