Should the EU be dissolved?

[Renew Deal]

[Agent William]

1. Yes, n/t

[banned from Kos]

2. interesting poll - so kick it.

I voted "yes" but only partially dissolved. The weak need to go or play by the rules.

[Renew Deal]

5. Then your answer is "no" or "other."

Speaking of the weak, do you support welfare, food stamps, affirmitive action, universal healthcare, and hate crimes laws? Or do you think the "weak" should just tough it out ("pull themselves up by their bootstraps")?

[banned from Kos]

6. I support a social safety net for all.

In particular, food stamps and universal health care.

By "weak" I meant the governments. Greece has a weak government that cannot enforce tax compliance.

[tama]

13. No Greek government can enforce

any compliance to any laws. Greeks are ungovernable, fiercely independent people. Anarchists in heart. Very nice people.

What makes German people so scary is that they like rules and are very governable. They make excellent concentration camp guards. Not so nice people.

[KamaAina]

33. Where do you get that broad of a brush? Home Depot?

One of the nicest people I know is German (though admittedly an expat). And she's not terribly governable, either; in fact, she participated in a protracted sit-in in Berkeley last year that prefigured the Occupy movement.

[tama]

38. From travelling a lot

and making lots of empirical broad brush generalizations of national characters. Memories of better times when we EU-citizens loved to hate each others national characters, "united in our difference". Now we are united in our less amused hate of EU-elites, politicians and the banksters they serve.

[Codeine]

3. Why should it? nt

[On the Road]

4. What Would be the Benefit

of the EU completely dissolving? I don't get it.

[tama]

8. Democratic socialist EU.

Instead of current corporate-fascist EU. Or we could jump directly to anarcho-communism.

[closeupready]

7. No, just let Greece go. Should never have been allowed in, in the first place.

nt

[tama]

12. Let Finland go

If Finns were given a referendum, people would now vote against staying in EU. But no, the parliament just amended constitution with EU membership as part of constitution, against the will of people.

And same in other countries, in the eyes of most European peoples, EU has no legitimacy.

[closeupready]

14. Finland's rate of corruption is one of the world's lowest, Greece the opposite.

That's why I say Greece should never have been allowed in to the EU in the first place. As a matter of fact, I recall a lot of debate from the early 90's about the traditionally high levels of corruption in the southern European states, and how there were fears that such fiscal irresponsibility would be a big drain on the well-run, wealthy middle and northern European states.

As someone else stated here, the only states that should be in the EU are just the core biggies - Benelux, Germany France and the Scandinavian states.

[tama]

18. Ha, we Finns

just hide our rate of corruption better. ;)

And you are out of touch of current political realities in EU - the general mood of people, in Greece, Finland and elsewhere. You don't have to parrot everything that corporate media buffoons spew. And FIY, Norway and Iceland are not EU members and Sweden and Denmark are not Eurozone members. You may say they should be, but they don't want to be.
And majority of Finns want to get out. And Italy is one of the original core biggies.

And most importantly this is not about national levels of traditional corruption. This about the corruption of the whole representative system. Ask OWS if you didn't know that.

[closeupready]

19. Well you would know better than I do.

I haven't been back to Europe for ages, so I am indeed out of touch with the general mood.

But I disagree with your statement that Italy was originally a core biggie - in fact, the high levels of corruption in Italy, particularly southern Italy, were always a big issue of concern during conceptual talks about the Euro, what it would be, how it would be rolled out, etc. The Germans didn't want to let their super-strong Deutschmark go in favor of the Euro, and I recall that a big reason was the fear that they would simply be throwing their money away.

However, they were successfully reunifying into a single state, and I guess they thought that if they could do it once, they could do it twice. Looks like maybe they were wrong.

[tama]

22. Italy

was one of the six founding members of EC, with population on par with France and Germany. The other three were the small Benelux countries. It's core from the beginning.

[closeupready]

24. Okay, but in terms of the common currency, there were reservations about it.

That's what I'm remembering.

[Berlin Expat]

21. How to say, "Goodbye"

Part of the EU's problem overall is that it doesn't have any sort of mechanisms to kick out countries like the PIIGS: it's kind of like the Cosa Nostra.....once you're in, you're in for good.

I would recommend a nice big EU-wide conference, all of the current 27 states, including the current EMU members, and a little laying down of the law.

First, no more EMU members until they strictly meet the EMU compliance guidelines, with at least two independent audits of any potential new members books. Goldman Sachs need not apply.

Second, independent audits (at least two) of all current EMU members finances. Again, Goldman Sachs need not apply.

Third, the creation of an enforceable mechanism whereby those current, or future member states who fail to meet the EMU criteria will be told to leave the EMU within one fiscal quarter. No ifs, ands, or buts.

President Sarkozy of France admitted that Greece never should have been allowed into the EMU. I agree with him 100% on that particular point. Neither should Portugal, Italy, Ireland, or Spain.

It's not too late to do something about correcting this abysmal situation, and I would respectfully suggest now is a good time to do it. Yes, it involves difficult decisions. Yes, there may be painful consequences. But if the EU has any desire to be anything more than a Wikipedia entry in the "Failed States" category, they need to do something, posthaste.

If they fail to act decisively, this could blow up into a terminal disaster not only for the EU, but for the United States as well. We have close trade and financial ties with the EU, and if they were to sink into a catastrophic recession or depression, it would have a knock-down effect on the US financial system as well. It could easily tip the US into another Great Depression.

Better to take lose a finger today to gangrene, rather than your whole arm, or your life, tomorrow.

Personally, I'm hoping that PM Papandreou takes Bundeskanzlerin Merkel and President Sarkozy off the hook by simply sticking to his guns, and going forward with the referendum (provided his government survives the "No Confidence" vote scheduled for Friday), and let the chips fall where they may. If the referendum fails (and I suspect it will), then it will ultimately force an EMU realignment. And in the end, that's better for the long-term viability of the EU project.

[tama]

29. I have much simpler solution

Give ECB power to print enough and pay of all debts everywhere, and then start from the scrap with other money creation system, like creation of Euros as EU-citizens salary. Socialize and democratize ECB is all that is needed, if there is to be sustainable future for Euro.

[Modern_Matthew]

9. If that's what the European people want, yes. If not, no. nt

[FSogol]

10. Isn't that for Europeans to decide?

:shrug:

[Nye Bevan]

11. Yes, unless countries like Greece, Italy and Spain can become more like Germany

in terms of how well they comply with tax laws and how hard they work.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[workinclasszero]

16. When Greece, Italy and Spain default

and tell the banksters to go to hell EU will be dead.

Its coming, just a matter of time.

[Poll_Blind]

17. Ambivilant. It's their thing. nt

PB

[Worship Money]

20. Yes

It is a tyrannical organization.

I bought into the "happy, united, peaceful Europe" trope for several years before really looking at the issue.

It's a frighteningly elitist and authoritarian scheme, and it's ugly face is starting to come into view with this episode in Greece.

[Yo_Mama]

23. It's none of our business n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. The question isn't whether the EU should be dissolved

it's whether the single currency should be abandoned. The answer to that question is "yes, if individual Eurozone states won't abdicate fiscal sovereignty to the ECB". (Greater European federalism and integration or dissolution of the single currency are the only really viable alternatives.)

[Celefin]

30. Tsk tsk, now you come here and confuse everybody...

...by making sense.

The Euro is a wonderful thing in theory, but not with the current framework.

In my opinion, centralized fiscal responsibility by a neutral, democratically legitimized entity, would be the best thing. Obviously, non-neutral national governments can't be trusted with fiscal souvereignity. Otherwise we wouldn't be in this mess. *sigh*

[Poll_Blind]

31. +1 There we go. That makes sense as a question.

PB

[Puzzledtraveller]

26. Curious, question..

I don't know a lot about th EU, what were member nations promised? How was it sold to them? Like what was the picth line? I just ask because I wonder, specifically with Spain and Portugal, Greece, would they have been better off staying out. Who really stod to gain from there ever being a EU? :shrug:

[Spider Jerusalem]

28. Free trade area, single currency

the benefits of the single currency (which was pegged to the Deutschmark) being borrowing at low interest rates; the advantages of the free trade area being free movement of goods throughout the EU with no trade barriers. The EU started as the European Coal and Steel Community, back in the 1950's; the original idea was that a Europe more or less integrated economically would be much less likely to go to war in the future. Churchill's "United States of Europe" idea.

[Fire Walk With Me]

27. Better question might be "Should the EU kick out the World Bank and IMF slavers?"

YES THEY SHOULD

[dipsydoodle]

32. The subject has got exactly what to do with anyone not EU?

.

[Spider Jerusalem]

35. Very little, really...

it seems to belong in the category of "things most Americans don't actually know enough about to have an opinion on" (especially considering that it conflates the EU with the Eurozone; not the same thing as there are 10 EU member states which are not part of the Eurozone).

[Taverner]

34. The EU needs to be more than a method to cut tariffs

It needs its own social safety net program, environmental regulations, as well as a economic stimulus mechanism

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. Individual member states have their own social programmes

the EU does in fact have environmental standard regulations that have the force of law in all member states; the European Central Bank does not as such have an economic stimulus mechanism (and the central banks of Eurozone countries have limited room for manouevre in terms of interest rates and money supply; the only mechanism they have for macro-economic management is the sale of bonds, not Euro bonds but Italian or Irish or Spanish bonds...which, well; the gap between yields for German bunds and Italian bonds is currently more than 5%, which should tell you something).

[Taverner]

37. And therin lies the problem

Any economic federation has to help both the owners and the workers

Otherwise it's just a get rich(er) quick scheme

[pampango]

39. Why? Europeans have peace, prosperity and income equality like never before.

The EU has accomplished what it was set up to do. European societies are progressive and open to each other. France, Germany and the UK have been allies for 65 years. When did that ever happen before?

Nationalism had done Europe no favors over the centuries. It's been a couple of generations since the last war there, so we start to forget what happens when tariffs and border controls help foster an "us. vs. them" mentality.

The progressive change to openness and cooperation with each other has proven to be much better for Europeans. Few want to go back to the days when you couldn't live, work and travel wherever you want on the continent.

Conservatives like to play the "us vs. them" game (white vs. black, rich vs. poor, citizen vs. immigrant, straight vs. gay, etc.) and are big on national sovereignty. It's no surprise that it is the far-right parties that want to get rid of the EU.

[JustAnotherGen]

40. I'm a not sure

I think since I'm in the U.S. - I'll let the people who reside and are citizens of the EU make that decision.

I do know this - it's not a 'failure' on their part. They got bamboozled by the banks too . . .