Methods of Exchange

[Fire Walk With Me]

Money is a symbol, created to ease the exchange of items we need (and less importantly, want).

Money has been usurped and turned upon us by slavers such as World Bank and the IMF. Look what they are doing to Greece, Ireland, Spain, Portugal...but not Iceland. Iceland have kicked the fuckers out, have rejected their false authority.

To further reject the false authority of those who have turned symbols of exchange against us, we need to examine previous systems of exchange (barter, etc.) and future systems (microeconomics). I ask you, what are your facts regarding better ways of fulfilling the exchange of goods and services? Please open the conversation!

[PETRUS]

1. I wish I had a better contribution.

I can only point out that the financial sector is not a stand-alone industry - it produces nothing and has no value if productive capacity is not developed elsewhere. I.e., all the money in the world won't feed you if people aren't farming.

Some might find these articles interesting:

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/10/201110792416802157.html

http://www.salon.com/2011/11/02/a_declaration_of_independence_from_wall_street/singleton

[Fire Walk With Me]

2. Thanks for posting and for the perspective. I think we require a need-based distribution system

for all of our basic needs. Is it so ridiculous to think that farmers and teachers and firemen and those who do the HARD WORK in this country, should ever face a lack of healthcare, etc., much less be forced to have to moonlight or suffer due to money problems?

Money is just an idea. Food, shelter, and health, are basic needs. We have a reported 1,000,000 homeless Veterans. This is absolutely criminal. Criminal. Habitat for Humanity are an excellent start; we should have "Amish barn raisings" for all our homeless and suffering. We just need the land, material, and people to do it.

[Fire Walk With Me]

3. ...not enough money for this, not enough money for that...our heads are up our asses if money is the

limiting factor when human need is concerned.

[backtoblue]

4. return to bartering

Start teaching our kids (and each other) how to grow their own gardens from seed and slowly make the transition back from being consumers to producers. Then, we can trade. ...

Just a thought. : )

[Fire Walk With Me]

5. It's a good thought :)

I'm a strong believer in "victory gardens", so to speak. Yes, if everyone produces, they can trade. We've been lulled into CONSUMING instead of PRODUCING, making us DEPENDENT. Goooood insight, thank you. This is the conversation I wish to have! :hi:

[PETRUS]

6. Earlier this year I re-read "The Incorporation of America"

by Alan Trachtenberg. He talks about how the rise of the modern corporation (beginning in the late 19th century) steered people away from self-sufficiency and artisanal goods towards a reliance on industry and manufactured goods. The book's a bit dry, I don't know that you'd want to read it...

[Fire Walk With Me]

10. That definitely interests me, thanks. Understanding how we got here

will help to reverse the process.

:hi:

[backtoblue]

7. I think it might have to be a slow weaning process

You're absolutely right that we are completely dependent on our current monetary system/government/corporations/(whomever our overlords are).

Simple surviving techniques are not taught anymore and will be forgotten knowledge if we don't do something to preserve it.

Most of our population does not know how to grow a tomato plant, let alone make solar power and sustaining technology. We need to teach each other how to survive without dependency, work together to make a better place for our kids.

[Fire Walk With Me]

11. These issues are all being addressed in Liberty Plaza/Zuccotti Park

and I hope that the results/processes are up at the general occupy website..occupyeverywhere? I forget :(

Is it possible to build your own solar panels or is that a technology best left to the machineries? Same with the batteries they feed.

Germany has a building design which reclaims waste and has an integral garden, it's a bit of an open but concentrated ecosystem. I should look that up again.

Thanks :hi:

[backtoblue]

14. thanks for giving me some study material !

Now I have to go looking into making my own solar panels. I'm not Mrs. Suzie Homemaker ( I work two jobs so not much time I'm afraid), but my ideology brings me into these conversations and subsequent research.

It would be a simpler, more fulfilling world to live in if we actually got MORE than a piece of paper for our work. Imagine the possibilities... : )

[Sarah Ibarruri]

8. The World Bank and IMF exist for only one reason and represent only one group...

And we know what group that is!

[OneGrassRoot]

9. For those with an interest in this topic, Google "alternative currencies"

Lots of really interesting alternatives cropping up all over the world, most with a local focus for local exchanges.

There are online alternative currencies available as well.

There are time banks and bartering clubs....really so much being experimented with, which is wonderful.

I highly recommend David Korten's book "Agenda for a New Economy" for those interested.

:thumbsup:

[hunter]

12. Money started out simple.

When someone gave you a gift money was a way of saying "thank you."

That's why many native populations had such trouble with European traders. The native people thought money meant "thank you," but to these European traders money represented a transfer of ownership.

A strict barter economy isn't fluid enough to support widespread trade. There are two ways to deal with this -- by imposing a monetary system with strict accounting and coercive enforcement (which is the system we have now) or by the ancient process of gifting and sharing in which money is only a loose and informal representation of value.

Most people in their daily lives have at least some experience with the ancient way of money. When they "lend" money to friends or family, especially friends and family in unstable situations, they do so without any assurances they'll ever be repaid or any expectation that the family relationship or friendship will be terminated if the money is not repaid.

The coercive system of money is founded upon debt and strict accounting.

The ancient system of money is a "pay it forward" system of gifting, trading, and sharing.

[Fire Walk With Me]

18. Excellent points!

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hunter]

15. Having "no specific physical item" backing it up is a GOOD thing.

Do you really want people who control a specific resource controlling the entire monetary system???

I sure the hell don't.

[Fire Walk With Me]

17. A gold standard is a good idea, because if you have a 1:1 correlation between

the valuable item and the notes promising equal value in that valuable item (silver certificates, etc.) then there is stability of sorts (I'm no expert).

The downside aside from the problem you bring up (and NO, we don't want to breed another class of Kontrollers) is that you have to hide away the valuable stuff because people will want to steal it so they can have more.

If you have ten goats, someone with two might want to steal one of yours. There is a deeper issue here...

[Yo_Mama]

21. Remember the cross of gold!

"Thou shalt not crucify mankind on a cross of gold."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Gold_speech

The issue there was to create more money to loosen up the economy - the producers were suffering.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terry in Austin]

23. Intrinsic worth

> Money has to have intrinsic worth, or value.

"Worth" is a matter of agreement, even with gold. Whether it's "intrinsic" or not is more or less beside the point.

Money doesn't have value, it measures value. The important thing, then, is for the measurement to be accurate. The problems come when people start fiddling with the yardstick, i.e., distorting the money supply.

The advantage of gold was that it guaranteed a stable money supply. That was fine as long as the amount of money circulating in the economy accurately represented the amount of wealth in the economy. When the economy grew, though, it was stuck behind the same amount of money, resulting in the Great Depression of 1873-1896.

Fiat money ("IOU's") can be just fine, as long as the total money supply scrupulously represents the total amount of wealth. The "scrupulous" part, obviously, is the big problem!

[Fire Walk With Me]

16. That's probably why the gold standard has been trashed, so they can play with the idea of money

and make a LOT of it.

Welcome to DU! :toast::hi:

[Dreamer Tatum]

19. Barter? Really?

What kind of idiot would support a barter system?

Look around you. 99 percent of the stuff in your immediate reach, ESPECIALLY your computer, would be impossible under a barter system.

[Fire Walk With Me]

22. Let food prices continue going up and we'll chat again.

Barter is not ridiculous in this day and age. Potlatch or community wealth is a better idea, but I think if a barter web page were started, something could come of it. Depending upon the honesty of the individuals.

[hunter]

24. I propose free beer tokens...

... each token to be worth no less than one free beer or its equivalent value in hot soup, bread, wine, cheese, nuts, fruits or vegetables.



http://freebeer.org/blog

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. Iceland has borrowed $2.1 billion from the IMF since the financial crisis

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/08/26/uk-iceland-imf-idUKTRE77P6ZA20110826

That's about $6,600 per Icelander.

This myth that Iceland somehow told the world's financial system, and in particular the IMF, to go screw itself really has taken over DU. What it actually did was nationalise its banks, because they had gone bankrupt (and thus no compensation was needed to be paid to the former owners), and then told bondholders in the banks to get to the back of the queue for repayment. That has now been confirmed in Iceland's Supreme Court:

Oct. 28 (Bloomberg) -- Iceland’s Supreme Court ruled in favor of emergency legislation passed in 2008 that gave depositors priority status over other creditors and protected banks from bondholder claims.
...
Iceland’s banks defaulted on $85 billion in debt when they failed at the end of 2008, as the government ring-fenced its financial industry in an effort to avert an economic collapse. The domestic assets of Landsbanki Islands hf, Kaupthing Bank hf and Glitnir Bank hf were taken over by the state, which has since created local banks from the lenders. Bondholders are still trying to recoup their funds.
...
The decision means Iceland won’t be forced to renegotiate a depositor claims accord with the U.K. and Netherlands. The island in September said proceeds from the assets of Landsbanki will allow it to pay as much as $11.4 billion to cover all depositor claims stemming from the bank’s failure.

Herdis Hallmarsdottir, an attorney at the Landsbanki’s Winding Up Committee, said at a press conference that calculations will be made before a decision on repayments is made and that it has 500 billion kronur ($4.4 billion) in available cash. There will be a tentative plan on repayments at a Nov. 17 creditors meeting, she said.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-11-02/iceland-court-backs-emergency-bill-blocking-bond-claims.html

Notice that this means Iceland recognises that the UK and Dutch depositors (note: depositors, ie people and organisations that put money into accounts) deserve repaying, although many DUers thought that any non-Icelander depositing money with an Icelandic bank should lose the lot, despite an Icelandic law that had set up a compensation fund.

Iceland took loans from the IMF, and is still paying them off.

[Fire Walk With Me]

27. Then they are fools, and in trouble...

[Fire Walk With Me]

26. Kick for positive discussion and perspective.