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Mark Rudd recently had an op-ed in the Washington Post, prompted by the senseless violence in Tucson. In it, Rudd spoke about the combination of politics and violence in America. For the “older generation” of participants on the Democratic Underground, when Mark Rudd speaks, we listen: he was one of the most articulate spokespersons from the the revolutionary youth movement from the 1960s.
No matter if one viewed him as a thermostat or thermometer of the '60s, Rudd was involved in many of the groups and actions that defined that turbulent decade. He was the president of the Columbia University branch of the Students for Democratic Society (SDS) in 1968, at the time of the student revolt; he was among the leaders of SDS faction known as the Revolutionary Youth Movement; and he helped create the Weathermen (later, Weather Underground).
After spending seven years “underground,” as a fugitive from justice, Rudd turned himself in on September 26, 1977. Because some of the government tactics, known as “COINTELPRO,” the US Department was kept from prosecuting him for all of the crimes the FBI believed he was involved in. After paying his dues to society, he began teaching mathematics at a college in New Mexico.
Perhaps more so than any other participant from that era, Mark Rudd has engaged in an on-going self-examination. Much of this is detailed in two books: “Truth or Consequences: The Education of Mark Rudd” (1990), and “Underground”(2009). It is my impression that he has never been able to truly forgive himself for his involvement in violent radical political action.
Last night, as I began doing an outline for this exclusive Democratic Underground interview with Rudd, my 16-year old daughter, Chloe, asked me what I was doing. I explained to her, in general terms, who I was preparing to interview. She said, “Oh, so he's kind of like you – he was angry and violent when he was young, but now he's an older guy fighting for peace. That's great.”
Just as I wouldn't care to have my daughter exposed to the person I used to be, I wouldn't care to have her influenced by a young Mark Rudd. The best antidote for that, by no coincidence, is having her and other young people who are frustrated by the tone in American politics today, listen to the insights of the mature Mark Rudd.
(Note: This is the first half of the interview. When the second half is completed, I'll post it. It includes some of the questions that people here suggested yesterday. Also, I am hoping that people will ask other questions on this OP/thread, which Mark may decide are worth joining this forum to answer.)
{1} My favorite book about the 1968 student revolt at Columbia University is James Simon Kunen's “The Strawberry Statement.” In it, the author describes you as “known to everyone, well known to few.” Can you describe to the high school and college students reading this forum what it was like to be a college student in that era? While the Vietnam War was the most pressing issue, what else contributed to the university students taking over parts of the campus?
Mark Rudd: This is an important story, which I tell at length in the first part of my book, "Underground." Speaking only for myself, I can tell you that I didn't want to be a good German meaning I didn't want to stand by while my country was murdering millions. I didn't want to assent to the racism which was overt at that time in the legally segregated south or the de facto segregated north. It's a question of not accepting my white skin and class privilege. So I wanted to side with the people of the world in their struggle against US imperialism. It was absolutely exhilarating to go beyond oneself and act in a much much larger cause. In taking over Columbia University around its support for the war and its institutional racism, that's what we were doing.
{2} In the 1960s, student groups such as the SDS were involved in both the anti-war and the Civil Rights movements. On April 4, 1967, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., boldly combined these two movements, in his “A Time to Break Silence (Beyond Vietnam)” speech at the Riverside Church in New York City. In your opinion, how much did his murder, a year to the day later, contribute to young people's embracing violent tactics in America?
Mark Rudd: The murder of Dr. King confirmed the "by any means necessary" direction of the black power movement, which had grown in the black freedom struggle since about 1965. Nonviolence seemed like a dead end after the assassination. Black power was a huge challenge to white new left kids who wanted to act in solidarity with black revolutionaries, not just applaud on the sidelines.
{3} The federal government was unable to pursue some charges against you, because of the tactics that were part of COINTELPRO. Some of those tactics were proposed in the Nixon administration as the “Huston Plan,” named after Thomas Charles Huston, a Nixon aide. Do you think that the Patriot Act, first passed during George W. Bush's administration, is largely an updated Huston Plan?
Mark Rudd: I'd have to go back and reread the Huston Plan in order to answer your question specifically. However, in general the government wants to restrict and control dissent, infiltrate movements and organizations, and expand its prosecutorial and surveillance power. The post-9/11 PATRIOT Act gave the federal government unprecedented power, including suspending habeas corpus and other civil liberties in cases labeled "terrorist." Cases like mine would never be dropped now because of government illegalities, because nothing is illegal, up to and including murder
{4} Should federal attorney Patrick Fitzgerald have pursued charges against Vice President Cheney for the Plame Scandal?
Mark Rudd: Of course. But at the same time many Bush administration officials should be tried for lying and for war crimes.
{5} Do you have any tips or suggestions for people who want to become active in grass roots level community action today?
Mark Rudd: Figure out what organizing strategies have worked in historical movements of the 20th century, like the labor, civil rights, anti-war, women's and gay rights movements, and see if those strategies are applicable to organizing now. I've been studying SNCC in the southern civil rights movement lately. Find out who Miss Ella J. Baker was and what her philosophy and practice was.
{6} Besides your 2009 book “Underground,” what books would you consider essential for students of American politics?
Mark Rudd: Anything by Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn are good starting points. Especially the latter's "A People's History of the U.S." Charles M. Payne's "I've Got the Light of Freedom," about SNCC in Mississippi, reads like an organizing handbook. I love the writing of Tom Hayden, a founder of SDS. I highly recommend his 2009 book, "The Long Sixties," in which he sets forth a theory of mass movements. Read anything at all by Staughton Lynd.
{7} In “Underground,” you quote Erich Fromm quoting Nietzsche: “There are times when anyone who does not lose his mind has no mind to lose.” What does that mean to you?
Mark Rudd: It's a bit literary and overblown. I think the point is that things are pretty bad and we need to get working.
{8} I've probably quoted Fromm on the Democratic Underground more than any other source. I believe his“The Sane Society” is more important today, than when he published it in 1955. What are the most important things that you have learned in reading his works?
Mark Rudd: Sorry, I've never read Fromm. The quote was used by someone else at the alternate Columbia 1968 graduation. Tell me about Fromm
{9} In your recent op-ed, you wrote that Sarah Palin and her cross-hair map “deserve nothing but ignominy.” What steps do you believe people can take to marginalize the politicians and journalists who try to incite with violent words and images? And what steps are necessary to improve the political and cultural dialogue in our country today?
Mark Rudd: We need to figure out how to build a mass movement for economic justice, peace, and to save the planet. The only possible way to do so is to use absolute nonviolence. In building such a movement, we'll be countering the far-rights absurdities and lies.
{10} What specific political issues concern you today?
Mark Rudd: Personally, I've always been concerned with our government's militarism. I also work in the movement for environmental justice at a local level. Mostly, I've been working within the Democratic Party to build a progressive caucus that can eventually change the direction of the party from center-right to center-left. It has to become a party of the people, not the second party of the capitalists. The issue of power concerns me greatly.
{11} Are there any political or social leaders that you are particularly favorably impressed with today? Are you optimistic, pessimistic, or a combination of the two, about our country's future?
Mark Rudd: I'm always optimistic because I can't afford to lose hope. It's an existential decision. I do believe that rationality has a chance to win over irrationality, especially when it comes to questions of our planet's survival. Of course there are many counter trends.
Many people are organizing on a local level and within the Democratic Party. I just read "Herding Donkeys" by Ari Berman, who tells the story of Howard Dean and the people who led a grassroots insurrection against the power brokers starting from 2004.
I have a lot of hopes for President Obama as a leader, but we need to give him a movement to lead.
{12} What were the most important lessons from the 1960s? What parts of that era are your best memories?
Mark Rudd: The fact that a mass movement actually stopped a war of aggression and the fact that I was a member of that movement, along with millions of others. Similarly, other mass movements, such as the civil rights movement, women's, gay rights, disability rights, all changed the cultural face of this country. Mass movements arise is the great lesson. They take organizing.
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