If you were a Greek citizen would you vote for or against the bailout?

[white_wolf]

Now that Greece is holding a national referendum on the EU's bailout plan, I'm curious to hear what DU thinks should be done. Would you vote for or against the bailout? I think Greece would probably be better off in the long term if they defaulted and started over. Iceland did it and they had some hard times, but now their economy is improving and they seem to have gotten a better government out of it. On the other hand Ireland, I believe it was, payed off their debts and their economy is still pretty bad.

[FarLeftFist]

1. Greece being the birthplace of democracy I would choose democracy.

[Warpy]

2. I wouldn't vote for anything that didn't have teeth in it

when it comes to taxing the rich. The Greeks are notorious for not paying taxes because their laws had lax to no enforcement. It's been almost an honor system and we all know how honorable many if not most rich people are.

If it's all suffering for the working class, I'd vote against it. Enough.

[dipsydoodle]

11. It not just the rich there

its pretty much a national pastime. That's not a criticism of them : just a fact of life. The exception may be those who are public sector employees assuming they do actually have some kind of functioning pay as you earn system.

In reality they're in a no win situation now. If the austerity measures are passed they'll have major unemployment and if they're not passed they could be out of both the Euro and Europe and back to the Drachma. Given that one of their most significant forms of income is tourism the latter may provide a better option long term as tourism would go through the roof almost immediately.

[Warpy]

18. Possibly, unless they really drag the rest of Europe down with the default.

However, you're right about the long term as long as the rest of Europe doesn't harbor a seething resentment and stay home out of spite, something I can see happening if they default.

I hope they think they can count on Asia to support their tourist industry, alone. The rest of the world is skint.

[dipsydoodle]

26. When it comes to holidays,

or vacations as you may call them , Europeans are not spiteful like that. Aside from that most of what you see in the press centres around Athens - not the Greek Islands. There's no flagging of enthusiasm to go there even now that I'm aware of.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

3. I think Greece should vote for (at least it would stabilize the World's economies

the stock markets are not well

[sabrina 1]

4. I would vote against the enslavement of my country by the IMF

and World Bank. However, the referendum has been withdrawn, I just read. Democracy loses again to the Global Capitalists who destroyed Europe and are working on the US.

[white_wolf]

8. Damn I didn't hear that. Thanks for the update.

I should have known this would happen.

[teddy51]

12. I just read somewhere that George Papandreou has offered to step down as well. n/t

[CoffeeCat]

21. Greece is all ready experiencing massive...

...protests and riots.

This is not going to go over well---AT ALL!

I wonder what will happen?

[sabrina 1]

27. Merkel made a disturbing statement the other day

after Greece announced the referendum. She said 'we cannot guarantee another fifty years of peace for Europe'. And in Greece, top military personnel were replaced. To avoid a coup? Or to cause one? No one knows, but what is happening in Europe is unprecedented and more and more of the people in every country there, are recognizing their loss of sovereignty and they don't like it.

I also think that those who screwed things up so badly would have no compunction about resorting to more violence to try to save their failed system and hang on to power. Maybe start a war in Iran, or Syria? Who knows, but we do know they care nothing for the lives of the citizens of the countries they have destroyed.

[RZM]

5. It's now pretty unlikely that the referendum will happen at all

It was reported earlier today that the PM is backing off from that idea.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2011/1103/Was-Greece-referendum-call-a-daring-game-of-brinkmanship

[ret5hd]

6. Against (nt)

[Gregorian]

7. Against. The bailout only postpones the inevitable crash.

Then the system can rebuild. Until it crashes, it's the same old corrupt system of greedy 1%'ers.

[CoffeeCat]

19. Ultimately it will crash...

...and that is what the banks want, in the long run.

In the short run--the insist on propping up their organized crime banking system--so they can continue
to pilfer more and more money for themselves and their elite friends.

Voting for this bailout just gives these banksters more time to enrich themselves. It's really too bad.

[Gregorian]

38. Which is just what we did here in the USA.

And look how well that worked.

I've been waiting 40 years for big changes. It's going to be exciting if something good really does happen. Go OWS!

[Imajika]

9. Last I heard the referendum was canceled anyway...

..but for what it is worth, I'd vote against.

Greece should default, dump the Euro and go back to their own currency.

Of course the austerity that would cause would be far worse than what they are dealing with now, but at least there would be light at the end of the tunnel. If they go forward with the EU plan, Greece will be mired in misery for as far as the eye can see.

Doesn't matter, referendum is canceled. The EU was going to hold back their next infusion of cash until Greece agrees to their terms, so the Papandreou called off the vote.

[KansDem]

10. Against

To vote "for" is a give-away to Wall Street.

...Europe has to cut its own throat in order to save the United States hedge funds and banks from taking a loss on the Greek bonds that they’ve insured. One of the reasons that people have been willing to buy Greek bonds is they bought credit insurance. And the European banks, mostly—maybe not Barclays or Deutsche Bank, but most banks—are not willing to write credit insurance, because everybody at the conference here in Berlin, at the Böckler Foundation conference, every single economist says there is no conceivable way in which Greece can pay its debts. But the Americans, hedge funds and bankers and—have come in and said, "We’ll write a guarantee." And then they lean on President Obama and Tim Geithner to tell the Europeans, "You have to make Greece pay, so that we win the bets that we’ve made, because if we lose the bets, then we go under, and the stock market crashes, and a lot of people can’t collect on their money market funds." So, this is just the naked, brute force that Mr. Obama is doing. He’s basically telling Europe, "Don’t go the democratic route. Support Wall Street."

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/3/wall_street_v_greece_g20_opens

We've bailed out Wall Street once before...we shouldn't do it again.

[Kaleko]

15. ^^ THAT, right there, is the bigger picture which most people don't understand.

At least not yet.

[CoffeeCat]

20. Thank you for posting this...would you please...

..make this an OP???

Seriously, I don't think most people understand the US connection to the Greek situation--and this
post clearly shines a light on what is happening.

Your post and the information in it--should be read by everyone.

Please consider posting this as an original post in General Discussion! :)

[Kaleko]

43. I second your request.

:hi:

[KansDem]

53. Completed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2240933

:hi:

[CoffeeCat]

56. Gracias!

Thanks for doing that!

I hope others see it. It's great information, given the press conferences and jockeying that Obama is doing today.

He just can't sell the powerful banks enough, can he?

[KansDem]

52. KansDem...

...at your service!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2240933

:hi:

[Taverner]

13. against. too bad it was canceled.

[CoffeeCat]

14. AGAINST...

Voting for the bailout saves the banks. It keeps these notorious, criminal banks in control and locks
countries into a system that does NOTHING for its citizens--and props up these powerful banks.

Yes, I understand. If Greece votes against the bailout--they crash. But you know what? Iceland
was in the same position. They said no to a bailout. It was difficult at first, but they are
healing and building on their own terms. Iceland said "NO" to the organized crime that is the banks.

We've all been bamboozled into believing that these banks must be saved and the world will end if
they end. The truth is--the world AS WE KNOW IT would end. But is that such a bad thing?

Look at what these disgusting banks have done. They bribed our politicians to gain deregulation
and relaxed lending rules. Then, they amped up their mortgage assembly lines and they cajoled
all of us into taking out mortgages with no money down, with very little income and some with
exotic financing. THEY DAMN WELL KNEW IT WOULD CRASH! They rolled all of those mortgages
into securities and sold them--making billions of dollars.

This was PLANNED. No accident.

Then, when it all crashes--we bail them out. They promise to use OUR TAX DOLLARS to "unfreeze
the credit markets and make loans". Uhhhh...no. They didn't do that.

Is this the system under which we want our world governed? These bastards own our democracy.

What is so wrong with saying NO to these criminals and starting anew? We won't die if we
aren't under the thumb of these corrupt banksters. However, they will convince you of that.

If Greece votes against the bailout, and goes the way of Iceland--it could set a trend. When
the world doesn't end for Greece, under a new plan--the banks and their fear game is over. More countries
will tell the banks to take a hike.

The bad news is--I highly doubt the Greek citizens will have any choice, but to go along. The
prime minister of Greece tried to usurp these mafia banksters. He ordered a "confidence vote"
in order to document support from the Greek Parliament for his next move--which was calling for a referendum in which the
Greek citizens would vote yes/no for the bailout. It appears that EU world leaders (who
work for the banks) have put horrendous pressure on Greece. It appears that this confidence
vote will fail--and the Greek prime minister will be out of a job within the next 48 hours.

I'm sure the banks are working very hard to ensure that whomever takes over--will kill any
referendum on the bailout. A referendum will NEVER brought to the people. The Greek government (whose
members have bank boots on their necks) will decide what is best, thank you very much.

[Fire Walk With Me]

16. I would educate the people to do what Iceland did!

Debt is a Gordian Knot. Slash it and be free of the slavers!

[Turbineguy]

17. Uhhh..... let's see.....

I borrowed too much money and had a good time for a number of years. Now I can't pay my mortgage. But the bank, instead of throwing my ass out into the street, cuts my mortgage in half but demands that I give up the exotic coffee and Oysters Rockefeller to help pay. So I guess I'd have to vote yes.

[county worker]

22. The trouble with your post is that the austerity measures will be put on the backs of those

who did not benefit from the loans.

The reason Greece is in trouble is because our Wall Street (for a price) helped them hide debt so the could join the EU! The unemployed and soon to be unemployed had nothing to do with that!

[Turbineguy]

42. You are absolutely correct.

The poor saps who worked hard and did not cheat on their taxes get it the worst. It's a terrible situation. Maybe the Greek Government should sort out who benefited most from the excess and bill them. The incompetent crooks who used to run the country should do some time in the cooler too.

Also there are a lot of people who want Greece to default, some for spite, some because it suits their ideology and some because they will profit from it. The Greeks have a bad choice and a worse choice. If they make the worse choice, those who profit will shift the ultimate cost to the rest of us who also had nothing to do with it.

Actually it would be to our own benefit if us ordinary middle class types sent the Greeks money to help pay. It is the same principle as Germany and France that helping them is cheaper than not helping them.

[MedleyMisty]

23. So the Greeks are rioting

because they're losing exotic coffee and oysters?

Gee. And here we just set up camps when we're losing everything, but they're willing to riot over coffee. Greeks are hardcore, man.

[MedleyMisty]

24. Definitely against

I'm not a devil you know type person. I'm a "get rid of the devil you know so that you may find the heaven that is possible, even if the road is tough" type person.

[tsuki]

25. Against. It can never be repaid back. nt

[PuraVidaDreamin]

28. Against

It's a vote against slavery! The People of Greece know this. I stand with the people of Greece.

[girl gone mad]

29. I would vote against bailouts.

I'm young. Why would I want to spend the rest of my life paying off debts incurred by crappy politicians my parents and grandparents elected? Debts which mostly now amount to interest payments to fat foreign bankers. What kind of a future would that be?

[dkf]

30. And what about our debts? Yup that's what I think will happen to our young people too.

Either we contain our spending now or later we will have to decide who is not going to get paid.

[TBF]

33. Curtail the spending by stopping the aggregious tax cuts -

and that includes your capital gains - back to pre W levels.

[girl gone mad]

34. We have a sovereign currency.

We should stop wasting money on wars and bank bailouts and we should stop paying private banks interest to issue our national currency, but we don't have the same problem as Greece with respect to our debts.

There is no intergenerational transfer and our debts will never be a burden to future generations. You have to understnd this by now, since I'm sure I've explained it to you before.

[dkf]

35. By your measure Greece going to the Drachma will solve everything.

since fiat money is the key. If that is so why don't they do it?

[girl gone mad]

37. It won't solve everything.

There are no easy outcomes.

[dkf]

40. So why do you insist that we can pay our bills because we have fiat money, yet not explain the

downside of doing so?

There are implications when you have so many obligations that you are forced to print money.

[girl gone mad]

41. What do you perceive to be the downside?

[dkf]

44. Hyperinflation.

[girl gone mad]

47. Hyperinflation is not a real threat.

I know you are obsessed with the notion, but you need to get over it.

Our government poured trillions of dollars into rescuing the banks. All of the people yelling about hyperinflation were wrong, it didn't happen.

[dkf]

48. When shadow banking collapsed printing just refilled the hole.

That's not normal.

[girl gone mad]

49. Then look at it as refilling the hole..

which is being created by private sector deleveraging, if you like. No difference. No threat of hyperinflation.

[TBF]

31. Against - no more bailouts for the billionaires (no matter which country they are in). nt

[Romulox]

32. You can vote not to pay your debts, but you can't vote to force others to provide new financing.

There will therefore be no vote.

[ellisonz]

50. I also don't think there will be a vote.

http://news.yahoo.com/greek-pm-not-resigning-134129592.html

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. Doesn't matter since it looks like there will not be a vote

[Downwinder]

39. ENRON creditors got five cents on the dollar

why can't Greece's creditors accept the same?

[dipsydoodle]

51. Not saying they shouldn't

but if that happened the Credit Default Swaps for the Sovereign Bonds would trigger and sound the death knell for that system of insurance. In their absense the interest rates implicit in sovereign bonds would escalate for some countries and would at least sound the demise of Italy too - possibly followed by Spain, Portugal and Ireland.

Countries have different vested interests in this subject Obama's concern being that it will fuck the US too - tough.

[Downwinder]

54. Death of derivatives. They are artificial and should not be counted as securities.

Do you count insurance on your car as wealth?

[moondust]

45. Don't know all the details but...

it sorta looks like a Proposition 13 situation: If you let taxpayers decide whether or not they want to pay taxes they will always vote no and it may create more problems than it solves.

A better approach might be to ask an independent body of economic experts familiar with the situation to consider the options, take a vote among themselves, and issue a recommendation.

[closeupready]

55. Problem is, all the mainstream economic experts have solid ties to Wall Street.

So obviously, they aren't going to be impartial, as a rule.

[FarCenter]

46. If I were Greek, I'd have another ouzo.