Seymour Hersh unleashed: "Just when we needed an angry black man, we didn't get one."

[kpete]

Seymour Hersh unleashed
Posted By Blake Hounshell Tuesday, January 18, 2011 - 1:34 AM Share

In a speech billed as a discussion of the Bush and Obama eras, New Yorker journalist Seymour Hersh delivered a rambling, conspiracy-laden diatribe here Monday expressing his disappointment with President Barack Obama and his dissatisfaction with the direction of U.S. foreign policy.

"Just when we needed an angry black man," he began, his arm perched jauntily on the podium, "we didn't get one."

It quickly went downhill from there.

Hersh, whose exposés of gross abuses by members of the U.S. military in Vietnam and Iraq have earned him worldwide fame and high journalistic honors, said he was writing a book on what he called the "Cheney-Bush years" and saw little difference between that period and the Obama administration.

the rest:
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/01/18/seymour_hersh_unleashed

[Laelth]

1. k&r for the truth, however depressing. n/t

-Laelth

[MadBadger]

54. You K&R Racist Shit like this?

And yes, it is racist when you talk about the "Angry black man"

[Richard Steele]

72. Yell 'racist' all you want, it doesn't change the TRUTH one bit.

And the truth is that Obama is the most disappointing President EVER.

[Godhumor]

82. Horse puckey

I will take these last 2 years of Obama over pretty much what anyone else on the national stage had to offer.

[Xenotime]

131. Agreed.

[tblue]

257. Ditto nt

[defendandprotect]

163. Hersh is pointing to Cheney's racism ... these wars as "Crusades" ....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=225204&mesg_id=229041

and try actually reading the article -- !!

This journalist is objecting to Hersh's attacks on US imperialism --

[wcollar]

171. last 2 years

I'd agree, but once again this is "damning with faint praise", or like the old Joan Baez song, a choice between "cancer and polio.

[DeSwiss]

192. Excellent observation.

And welcome to DU :)

[bobbolink]

217. Thank you for naming that "choice" accurately.

Hopelessly depressing. :cry:

[stevenleser]

219. No, it isnt, actually. I have no idea what you are reading into it, but it doesnt say what you think

it does.

[lfairban]

232. Welcome to DU

:hi: :toast: :hi: :toast: :hi: :toast: :hi: :toast: :hi: :toast:

I met Joan Baez in 2003, it was the night the war started.

[RayStar]

230. DITTO

We as a country are in so much better shape.

[creon]

244. so will I

Obama is one of the very few adults in the political class.
Sad and true

[Alameda]

264. Me too, but I sure wish Kucinich had a chance to be on stage more.

[grahamhgreen]

278. "National Stage" = "Corporate Stage". Feingold/Grayson

[cui bono]

311. Really? So you enjoy having a Dem pres who's main goal is to make Rethugs like him?

Who doesn't fight for the people?

Who tells progressives to stfu?

Who expands Bush's illegal wiretapping?

Who dislikes whistleblowers?

Who caves because of lies rather than speak the truth?

Who is right of center and is taking the Dem party farther right so that there is essentially no left any more? For chrissakes, his health care is a joke. It was NOT a democratic plan. He didn't even TRY to get the public option.

Who lets Rethugs walk all over him without a word?

Fuck this. He needs to change parties and get it over with. Most disappointing president ever. He had the chance to do great things, but unfortunately he is NOT a leader.

[Butch350]

100. Oh Please...

Yawn. Better check your History a wee bit closer. Credibility = 0! Think before you write.

[emulatorloo]

139. You lack historical perspective.

[Duppers]

281. isn't that the truth!

I'd advice the poster to read more.

[no limit]

252. You might take it. But I'm not sure the pakistani children that we keep killing feel the same way

[glitch]

97. Using their racist bullshit against them is now racist? Got it. K & R to counter that ignorance. nt

[defendandprotect]

145. k/r -- exactly !!

[populistdriven]

101. Can we find an angry white man real quick?

oh snap Grayson lost

[defendandprotect]

137. This is not racist -- and certainly Hersh isn't racist ... but Bush/Cheney certainly were ...

and W introduced the "Crusade" mentality at the very first in these ME wars!

"Crusades" are also themes that run thru the right wing ... with even the

GOPs/NRA now presenting calls for gun control as a "Crusade" against guns owners

and second amendment rights!

Nothing new here, folks!!

It's the same old patriarchal use of organized patriarchal religion to hold onto

power. Using religion is like laying landmines all over the world.

As just a little thought makes clear, patriarchy is nothing without organized

patriarchal religion.

After the attack on authority by Youth in the 1960's the GOP gave start-up funding

for the Christian Coalition -- Richard Scaife financed Dobson's organization --

and other wealthy right wingers financed Bauer's organization. Those were the very

FIRST steps in arighting patriarchal authority --

And here's what the YOUTH Revolution was really all about --


"I realized that in this country we had a revolution--of housing, food, hair style, clothing, cosmetics, transportation, value systems, religion--it was an economic revolution, affecting the cosmetics industry, canned foods, the use of land; people were delivering their own babies, recycling old clothes, withdrawing from spectator sports. They were breaking the barriers where white and black could rap in 1967. This was the year of the Beatles, the summer of Sergeant Pepper, the Monterey Pop Festival, Haight-Ashbury, make your own candle and turn off the electricity, turn on with your friends and laugh--that's what life was all about."


http://maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Ballad%20of%20Mae%20Brussell.html

[catzies]

209. Wish we could recommend single posts, I give yours a +1 and K&R

:thumbsup: !!!

[defendandprotect]

160. Here's the real racism that Hersh reveals ... Cheney's racism ....

Don't they get it? We're gonna change mosques into cathedrals. And when we get all the oil, nobody's gonna give a damn.'"


Read the article --

Understand Hounshell supports Council on Foreign Relations --

[sabrina 1]

195. Thanks for really reading the article. Anyone who knows

Hersch would never for a minute accuse him of racism. He has witnessed all the U.S. racist wars for so long and spoken out against them.

There is not conspiracy about the fact that top Military personnel are on a crusade. How quickly the 'left' has forgotten their outrage over that very fact when so many times, as in the case of Boykin, eg, the crusade mentally was revealed.

NOW they call it a 'conspiracy theory'??

Have the also forgotten Repubs like Pence, friend to Christian Crusader, Blackwater's Prince?

Hersch is correct. The spin put on what he said by this author not withstanding.

And I think if I were President Obama I would be taking a hard look at who is supporting me these days and who isn't. Cheney or Hersch? Who would YOU want standing behind you?

[defendandprotect]

225. +1 -- Hersh has long roared against US imperialsm and its racism ...!!

And the lawsuit against the military re the survey by the Pentagon which

obviously slanted spiritual well being and sanity to being "Christian"!!

Did you also yet see the comments by the new Governor of Alabama re who his

brothers and sisters are? Only Christians!!

Remember Rumsfeld's "Christian" memos -- ah, those were the days!

It's really, imo, a return to Medieval thinking -- TORTURE and CRUSADES!!



:)

[sabrina 1]

242. I remember Rumsfeld, yes. And the then CIC speaking about

which 'father' was guiding him in his 'crusades' abroad.

And then there was the revelation that when the war began, Evangelists were planning on accompanying the military on their Crusade into Iraq, bringing with them Bibles and food and other luxuries etc. which, we found out, the Iraqi 'savages' would be offered in return for listening to some Christian truths.

It's sad how quickly people forget. I do remember the outrage when Bush was overseeing all of this. And clearly Hersch's memory is a bit sharper than many of the current president's supporters.

It just goes to show how blinding 'loyalty' can be! Thankfully we still have people like Hersch to remind us.

[femrap]

274. Isn't the Air Force filled w/

nothing but vehement fundies??? Shit...now the Catholics? Opus Dei....who has Clarence Thomas as a member. And now this Malta group?

I have a fundie Aunt....and she keeps telling me to HATE MUSLIMS. Right, auntie....that's exactly what Jesus wanted.

I believe Hersch.

Hell, there's a group of 'angry white men' as well. Of course the two groups are angry about totally different things.

I wish Obama had more fight in him as well. I've said this many times. And so have lots of others.

All of TPTB are in it together....they're all corrupt.

Hersch is right....Tunisia changes EVERYTHING. The PEOPLE are pissed and sick of the corruption.

[sabrina 1]

285. He's been watching all of this for a long time, and I don't

remember him ever being wrong.

We do need some anger, like Tunisia maybe it will have to come from the people. Any public figure who expresses anger is quickly labeled as 'nuts' in this society.

I think what happened in Tunisia should serve as a warning to all corrupt regimes. It's not that unusual if they look at history for people to be driven to a breaking point. And around the world, with their 'austerity' programs ONLY for the working class, they are actually asking for more Tunisias.

[femrap]

298. There is a minority of

extremely wealthy people in this country who think they should be paying higher taxes....they realize that people can be pushed only so far until there is blood in the streets. These people have read history.

I have been reading and watching about food prices. Today I spoke to a woman who works in the meat department of a store I frequent, she says beef prices are going crazy. In December, food prices in the US were up 12% annualized.

I think we're are going to see the Fed who has been kicking the can down street reach a big wall....and I think it's going to be soon.

I found this today:

http://www.leap2020.eu/geab-n-51-is-available-systemic-global-crisis-2011-the-ruthless-year-at-the-crossroads-of-three-roads-of-global-chaos_a5775.html

This is a French Consulting Firm.

As Bette Davis said....fasten the seat belt...bumpy ride.

[StarsInHerHair]

321. yes http://www.talk2action.org/ has many eye-opening articles on that

and more

[JDPriestly]

187. Please write about your own inside knowledge about what

is going on in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Have you been there? Have you talked to a lot of people who have been there?

As for Hersh's "angry black man" remark, context is everything. Hersh was not calling anyone an "angry black man." To the contrary, he was pointing out the absence of anger at a time when it is needed and in a place where it is needed.

There was nothing remotely racist about Hersh's statement. It was sort of an intellectual joke ridiculing the racists who made predictions about Obama that proved untrue. Hersh is joking that he wished they had been more untrue.

Do you think it is racist to call the Teabaggers angry white folks, by the way?

[defendandprotect]

226. +1 --

[kenfrequed]

284. Eh... no

I'm sorry that doesn't qualify.

It isn't a prejorative and the feedback reaction to it by some seems to reek of 'concern trollish' behavior.

[PatrynXX]

294. Hoping that was satire

brother's born from middleton so don't look at me (seeing the avatar only the poster should get it)

that wasn't real good using the angry black man term. think we just went into blood libel area :(

[Skittles]

302. ever heard of CONTEXT?

[Paka]

304. Thank you...

For pointing out an obvious truth regarding the phrase "angry black man."

[ipaint]

70. +1 I'll take angry white, black or green any day as opposed to this thinly veiled

class war being waged by the calm collected crowd.

[nannah]

90. +1

"thinly veiled class war being waged by the calm collected crowd." great line

unfortunately the "calm collected crowd" has their inflamed minions keeping the divisive heat up... for much of the purpose of heated rhetoric is to create chasm's between people of fundamental shared interests (just like u & me, they aren't rich). a nice byproduct to this this strategy is the occasional "lone wolf", highly predictable in scientific models.

and who can forget the other group of "loan wolves" set upon us.

[Catherina]

114. +1 n/t

[defendandprotect]

164. +1 --

[leftstreet]

207. +1

No kidding

[bobbolink]

224. Gold Star awarded for your post.

:applause:

[Poll_Blind]

229. +1

PB

[MissDeeds]

267. +1

Yep. Where is the outrage?

[defendandprotect]

159. K/R --

[Octafish]

2. CFR types don't like conspiracy theory.

"One of the things that is interesting about reading conspiracy theory is that much of what folks think is conspiracy is really many people acting in concert to make or protect their money." -- Catherine Austin Fitts.

[RufusTFirefly]

4. Agreed.

Love the quote, by the way.

[swilton]

98. What is CFR?

[populistdriven]

105. really?

google

"historic interview with aaron russo"

and watch the hour long video

[stevenleser]

222. It's one of the paranoid conspiracy theories du-jour. Dont feel bad that you dont know it

CFR actually stands for the Council for Foreign Relations. Its a group that puts out position papers on foreign policy.

To those who swallow paranoid conspiracy theories, it is one of three groups (the other two being the Trilateral commission and the Bilderberg group) who really run the whole world behind the scenes. In so doing, they poison us with Chemtrails, control the weather and induce earthquakes with HAARP, etc., etc.

Now, I wish both of us could sue the folks who espouse this garbage to get back whatever time and brain cells necessary to think about and type and read this.

[swilton]

241. I did watch the Russo Interview

I don't think that his theory provides all the answers - but I do think that the one world economy is where many policy makers are leading us. This one world government is also mentioned by Zbignev Brzezhniski (sp) who's theories of the Grand Chessboard (think that's the title of the book that persuades the Obama Administration) seems to have influenced/be influencing the Obama Administration. In the video Russo was asked to come up with families of - I'm not certain whether or not the interviewer was talking about the Federal Reserve or the CFR - but whichever, certain that the Bush family/members of the Carlyle group would figure prominently...

Also think Russo was right that these people are evil (I would call them sociopathic) - some that have no consciences, others are ignorant, others are followers...also think Russo was correct about the orchestration of crises du jour.

[stevenleser]

277. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want...

I am of course, also entitled not to give this a further thought if I think that further thought is wasted.

[BOG PERSON]

243. Council on Foreign Relations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_Foreign_Relations

its true, they frown on conspiracy theories that don't give due credit to the Council on Foreign Relations.

[Peace Patriot]

305. LOL!

And they could care less when one of their members* turns up in a landfill in Delaware, as long as everybody's fingernails stay neat and trimmed and moist for all that paper they have to turn the pages of and slip into the cat litter box.

----

*John P. Wheeler. (Sorry to laugh about this poor sod getting thrown out with the trash two weeks ago. But sometimes that's the only thing you can do with these Lords of the Earth--view them as you would "Dr. Strangelove" and laugh.)

[defendandprotect]

319. Down the Memory Hole ... !!! Thanks for the reminder -- !!

[jakeXT]

297. I still like how Cheney duped his voters and even was the director , classic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbnpN07J_zg

[truedelphi]

234. Catherine is the best.

:hi:

[ProSense]

3. "delivered a rambling, conspiracy-laden diatribe"

"Just when we needed an angry black man..."

People are having serious issues with the fact that the President is black, huh?

We didn't need a fucking "angry black man."

[villager]

7. what we *really* didn't need was an extension of Cheney/Bush-era policies....

n/t

[ProSense]

9. And what the hell does that have to do with an "angry black man"? n/t

[villager]

21. he's using the feared stereotype of the right, and turning it on its head

I realize this is often a subtle technique.

They feared "an angry black man." We got an appeaser.

If we'd gotten someone closer to what they'd "feared," he's saying, we'd actually be better off.

[ProSense]

23. Oh please.

People seem to have issues. There is not going to be an "angry" President in the vain they claim. It's cover for their BS nonsense.

Go find an "angry" person to run and get elected, but leave "black" out of it.

[RufusTFirefly]

26. Yes. Absolutely. It was very clever. But alas, it will be lost on those who don't do nuance.

Besides, the key is to obsess about the style of Hersh's remarks.
That's the best way to keep from confronting the substance.

[ProSense]

28. Nuance? "the key is to obsess about the style of Hersh's remarks"

Maybe he should have checked the nuance of "angry black man."

There's nothing fucking clever about it.

[RufusTFirefly]

40. Case in point. n/t

[villager]

53. +1

n/t

[ProSense]

56. He said, he owns it.

He owns the criticism of it also, much like Palin owns her words.

[sabrina 1]

102. Exactly.

[pscot]

91. Hersh is referring to the acute sense of moral outrage

that has charaterized men like Dr. King, Malcom X, Thurgood Marshall and so many other African American leaders. It's a very long and distinguished list. They were men who created and symbolized a movement. A gifted Black politician promising change inevitably evoked certain hopes and expectations in many of us who lived through the hot days of the Civil Rights movement. Hersh is no racist. He's just a man who despairs for his country.

[sabrina 1]

104. Some people think that being an 'angry black man' is a bad thing.

Revealing actually. It's okay to be an 'angry white man' though. I suspect Seymor Hersch is well aware of that.

[ProSense]

108. Some people are racist. n/t

[sabrina 1]

125. Apparently and no one knows that better than

Seymor Hersch. Being a witness to the U.S. racist wars for decades, he is acutely aware of it.

[ProSense]

106. Oh spare me. n/t

[superduperfarleft]

122. Bullshit. The Angry Black Man is a long-standing and offensive stereotype

that every black person is, deep down, some bee-bopping gangsta caricature of a minstrel that's going to "keep it real" or bust a cap in someone's ass.

Obama's a fucking law professor, not a rapper. Hersh is basically making an assumption about Obama's personality based solely on the color of his skin.

It's racist as shit.

[emulatorloo]

142. Yes it is a disgusting stereotype. Thank you

[Number23]

291. First time I've ever agreed with you, but I think you're spot on. The recs and agreement with

this despicable idiocy (even the person who wrote the damn blog does everything short of saying that Hersh seems to have fallen off his rocker) say everything you need to know about DU and far too many "liberals" who frequent it.

[defendandprotect]

155. Thank you ... !!! Exactly --

And, Blake Hounshell exploited a legitimate theme in order to try to create the

appearance of racism --


Blake Hounshell, editor of Foreign Policy Magazine, denies ...
Blake Hounshell, editor of Foreign Policy Magazine, denies the CFR has influence in Washington
www.dailypaul.com/node/120111 - Cached

[ipaint]

172. +1. That moral outrage is what unites and empowers the lower classes.

Very dangerous to the comfortable class and above. That's why the only acceptable "moral outrage" you will see in threads like this is that of those most threatened by righteous anger.

Best to squash with accusations of racist immediately before it spreads.

[bobbolink]

236. You have put your finger on exactly what is bothering me now.

I can no longer sustain that moral outrage...... I have been bashed too many times. The "terrorism" worked, and I HATE that.

I know that was their aim with me... and I hate giving in to it.

But I just have nothing left.

Unless and until we can successfully learn to support each other, more and more will fall to the wayside.

[femrap]

275. Anger = Injustices abound. nt

[emulatorloo]

144. It is true that ideologues don't do Nuance, And they are not above embracing a racist stereotype

if it fits their narrative. We see that at FreeRepublic everyday. DU is supposed to be the rational website.

(I'm seriously surprised to see Hersh using that stereotype.)

[RufusTFirefly]

148. Jesus on a pogo stick. Hersh was deliberately SUBVERTING that stereotype

Don't you understand?

He was deliberately playing off the bigoted obsession with the image of the "angry black man" and was saying in effect, "We should be so lucky."

It's like trying to explain a joke. Hopeless. Have a nice day!


:hi:

[emulatorloo]

161. Oh, I understand. I don't like it though. Maybe he meant to say "Obama is an Uncle Tom"

I don't think it is a good idea to used such loaded racist language. In fact I think it is a very bad idea, Even if he was trying to "explode the stereotype"/

[defendandprotect]

166. It's the right wing which uses this "loaded racial language" ....

Hersh is raising the question of US Imperialism and the power of angry

white men like Cheney in pushing it --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=225204&mesg_id=229041

[emulatorloo]

180. Then why is Seymour Hersh highlighting the president's race?

Look I don't think Seymour Hersh is a racist.

I am sure it was a just a rhetorical device for him.

I think it was a bad rhetorical choice. One that has consequences.

I am more concerned about the number of posts in the DU thread doubling down and embracing on the racist language

[defendandprotect]

208. This speech was at Georgetown ... Hounshell chose the headline ...

obviously to try to create a racist impression --

Cheney: Don't they get it? We're gonna change mosques into cathedrals. And when we get all the oil, nobody's gonna give a damn.'"

That's from the article -- and no reference to that in the headline --

yet US imperialism is certainly racist and biased to "Christianity" as W immediately

referred to the war in ME as a "Crusade."


Generally agree with you -- but DU'ers can quickly be carried away by a headline and

not reading the whole article -- !!

That's all that happened here --

And it took some reminders of those black men who felt moral outrage at Segregation, Inc.

and the poor -- men like MLK, Jr. and Thurgood Marshall to put things somewhat aright again!


:)

[Mimosa]

301. Exactly so!

A few just don't get it.

[liberation]

260. You say that you understand...

... yet your posts keep saying that you do not.

Or maybe, you do understand but you like the taste of red herring better.


Alas...

[emulatorloo]

288. "Just when we needed a fat lazy Mexican, we didn't get one."

"Just when we needed a frigid sexless Lesbian, we didn't get one"

and so forth and so on.

How hard is it for you to admit that Hersh was wrong for using a horrible racist stereotype as a rhetorical device? Why do other DU'ers seem so intent on embracing it?

Seymour Hersh is an excellent reporter, the best explanation I can come up for this is that he was drunk.

[Lautremont]

292. Perhaps it is you that is drunk.

Those other stereotypes you mention did not come up in right-wing opposition to Obama, whereas the "angry black man" one did. You seem to be willfully misunderstanding the point, which is clear notwithstanding the obfuscations in the OP article and subsequent postings in this thread from such super-geniuses as you and that ProSense.

[emulatorloo]

296. I am not "willfully misunderstanding" anything. I think it was a bad rhetorical move for Hersh to

use.

Let's put it another more neutral way.

Say Hersh made a joke, it was a bad joke, a tasteless joke and very very un-funny joke,

You want to defend the joke, other DU'ers seem to want to repeat the joke

I think it was very ill-advised to bring up Obama's race. And as I said, from my knowledge of Hersh and his work, I find it out of character,

Hersh could have made his point without trotting out one of the most egregious stereotypes out there, knowing parody or not.

Having grown up in the South maybe I am more sensitive to that kind of stuff than some DU'ers are..

[Lautremont]

300. The badness, tastelessness and un-funnyness of jokes is highly subjective

and you talk as though it is not. In any case, we're all adults here. We ought to be able to take a little edgy humor if it makes a point, and it does.

You also talk about "bringing up Obama's race" like it's something he should be ashamed of. I'm sure you don't think that, but I suspect you are being a little oversensitive.

[emulatorloo]

309. "You also talk about "bringing up Obama's race" like it's something he should be ashamed of."

HOLY CRAP! I don't know what the heck to make of that.

We've talked this thing to death. Have a good night then!

[Mimosa]

303. I gew up in the South and I have no problem with Hersh's statements.

I am increasingly watching a president who seems as tough as a swans down powderpuff.

Hersh tells it as he ascertains information. His work reflects his ability as an experienced reporter. Even when I don't like what Hersh has to say, he's honest.

[stevenleser]

227. He should have stuck to the issues instead of wading into trying to deal with another groups

stereotypes. It doesnt work when people not of a discriminated against group use anger and sarcasm in an attack against a member of that discriminated against group to attempt to explode stereotypes the way that Hersh did. It ALWAYS comes out wrong.

Pick any stereotype about a discriminated against group and think about saying about a member of that group, "If only we had an X (name of group) who really WAS Y (stereotype)". It always comes out HIGHLY offensive.

Hersh screwed up here and should apologize.

[StarsInHerHair]

322. talk about getting stuck on a button and ignoring the jacket...........

too many are instantly ignoring everything Hersh is saying, getting all caught on that one phrase.

[stevenleser]

325. When you use racially insensitive language, that is what happens. n/t

[sabrina 1]

268. I think you misunderstood him ~ he is not embracing a stereotype

he is exposing it.

[defendandprotect]

253. Article's headline was intended to keep anyone from reading it -- !!

Cheney: Don't they get it? We're gonna change mosques into cathedrals. And when we get all the oil, nobody's gonna give a damn.'"

From the article --

Guess that makes quite clear where we were with Bush/Cheney and right now with those left over

from that administration -- as Hersh is pointing out and the dangers that represents to our

foreign policy. How it furthers US imperialism and racism.

But, after the headline, the FR journalist made certain no one would read the article!

[im1013]

299. +1000!

[defendandprotect]

165. What does US imperialism have to do with angry white men like Cheney?

That's the question Hersh is raising --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=225204&mesg_id=229041

[JuniperLea]

16. Were they angry too?

What's your point? I don't follow.

[defendandprotect]

158. "Change mosques into cathedrals -- get all the oil" -- sounds like the work of angry white men....

Cheney: Don't they get it? We're gonna change mosques into cathedrals. And when we get all the oil, nobody's gonna give a damn.'"


Hersh then brought up the widespread looting that took place in Baghdad after the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003. "In the Cheney shop, the attitude was, ‘What's this? What are they all worried about, the politicians and the press, they're all worried about some looting? ... Don't they get it? We're gonna change mosques into cathedrals. And when we get all the oil, nobody's gonna give a damn.'"

"That's the attitude," he continued. "We're gonna change mosques into cathedrals. That's an attitude that pervades, I'm here to say, a large percentage of the Joint Special Operations Command."

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. I'd settle for angry.

:think:

[russspeakeasy]

126. And I would settle for character and living up to his promises.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

273. Doesn't leave much negotiating room.

:cry:

You drive a hard bargain.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cascadiance]

80. If its a "conspiracy-laden diatribe" dammit, its sure an accurate one!

[TBF]

94. You're right - we don't need an angry black man. We need many angry

people - of all sizes, shapes, and colors. And we need them to organize a resistance to the status quo. The democratic party is not helping workers, and the republicans would just as soon kill workers as look at them.

[neverforget]

5. I need some popcorn

:popcorn:

[spanone]

6. we may need an angry President, but not an angry black President

[madmax]

12. +10

[Doctor_J]

29. But the only president we have is black.

So if you admit that we need an angry president, the only option is an angry black one.

[ozone_man]

85. Your logic is impeccable.

Seymour Hersch is spot on. Of course, an angry white man like Dean would have been nice too.

[Doctor_J]

135. How true.

I wonder if Dr. Dean had made it to the White House, would he have capitulated on torture, Gitmo, Valerie Plame, HCR, tax cuts, or actually fought the right wing. We'll never know.

[Fearless]

89. +1

[emulatorloo]

143. Or you could leave RACE OUT OF IT

[defendandprotect]

173. US Imperialism has always been racist -- and continuest to be --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=225204&mesg_id=229041

How could you avoid seeing that?

From the first dark days of the GENOCIDE vs the Native American --

to the enslavement of the African here --

and after that another 100 years of Segregation, Inc.

Did we exploit the Chinese here? The Japanese?

Now Hispanics who we reinvited in after taking their homelands to work as slave

labor for us!

On and on --

[RZM]

248. What bull

Your last sentence is wrong in almost every way. While legal immigrants are invited in, undocumented immigrants are not. Hispanics from stolen 'homelands' would be confined to those descended from families who were living in territory acquired by force from Mexico in the 19th century, which is a very small percentage of the current Hispanic population in the US. We don't have slaves here either -- we do have people working in low-paying jobs of course, but we all know that's not the same thing.

[defendandprotect]

314. So all you care about in what I said is that Hispanics must be seen as "illegals" .... ???

The reason we have undocumented immigrants is because elites want cheap labor here --

and they especially wanted it in Arizona! Now that their boom times are over they want

them out.

The stolen homelands ...

Did you know that until 1848 California, New Mexico and other portions of the Southwest were internationally recognized provinces of free Mexico, until the U.S. decided it wanted those provinces, declared war on Mexico, and stole them? Read on for the chronology of these events, and then ask yourself : "Who are the real illegal in California?"


Prior to 1822

What is today Mexico, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and California are all Spanish colonies.

1822 Mexican colonists, following the American revolution, rebel against Spain and win their own revolutionary war, making Mexico a free nation just like America.

1844 James Polk campaigns for the U.S. presidency, supporting expansion of U.S. territories into Mexico.

February, 1845 James Polk, on his inagauguration night, confides to his Secretary of the Navy that a principal objective of his presidency is the acquisition of California, which Mexico had been refusing to sell to the U.S. at any price.

Early 1845 The Washington Union, expressing the position of James Polk, writes: "...who can arrest the torrent that will pour onward to the West? The road to California will be open to us. Who will stay the march...?" "A corps of properly organized volunteers...would invade, overrun, and occupy Mexico. They would enable us not only to take California, but to keep it."

Early 1845 John O'Sullivan, editor of the Democratic review writes it is "Our manifest destiny to overspread the continent ...for the free development of our yearly multiplying millions."

Early 1845 James Polk promises Texas he will support moving the historical Texas/Mexico border at the Nueces river 150 miles south to the Rio Grande provided Texas agrees to join the union. "The traditional border between Texas and Mexico had been the Nueces River...and both the United States and Mexico had recognized that as the border." (Zinn, p. 148)

June 30, 1845 James Polk orders troops to march south of the traditional Texas/Mexico border into Mexican inhabited territory, causing Mexicans to flee their villages and abandon their crops in terror.
"Ordering troops to the Rio Grande, into territory inhabited by Mexicans, was clearly a provocation." (Zinn, p. 148)

"President Polk had incited war by sending American soldiers into what was disputed territory, historically controlled and inhabited by Mexicans." (John Schroeder , "Mr. Polk's War")

Early 1846 Colonel Hitchcock, commander of the 3rd Infantry regiment, writes in his diary: "...the United States are the aggressors....We have not one particle of right to be here....It looks as if the government sent a small force on purpose to bring on a war, so as to have a pretext for taking California and as much of this country as it chooses....My heart is not in this business."

May 9, 1846 President Polk tells his cabinet: "...up to this time...we have heard of no open aggression by the Mexican Army."

May 10, 1846 Violence erupts between Mexican and American troops south of the Nueces River. Of course Polk claims Mexicans had fired the first shot, but in his famous "spot resolutions" congressman Abraham Lincoln repeatedly challenges president Polk to name the exact "spot" where Mexicans first attacked American troops. Polk never met the challenge.

May 12, 1846 : Horace Greeley writes in the New York Tribune: "We can easily defeat the armies of Mexico, slaughter them by thousands, and pursue them perhaps to their capital; we can conquer and "annex" their territory; but what then? Who believes that a score of victories over Mexico, the "annexation" of half of her provinces, will give us more Liberty, a purer Morality, a more prosperous Industry...?

1846 Congressman Abraham Lincoln, speaking in a session of congress "...the president unnecessarily and unconstitutionally commenced a war with Mexico....The marching an army into the midst of a peaceful Mexican settlement, frightening the inhabitants away, leaving their growing crops and other property to destruction, to you may appear a perfectly amiable, peaceful, un- provoking procedure; but it does not appear so to us."
after war is underway, the American press comments:

February 11, 1847. The "Congressional Globe" reports: "...We must march from ocean to ocean....We must march from Texas straight to the Pacific ocean....It is the destiny of the white race, it is the destiny of the Anglo-Saxon Race."

The New York Herald: "The universal Yankee Nation can regenerate and disenthrall the people of Mexico in a few years; and we believe it is a part of our destiny to civilize that beautiful country."

American Review writes of Mexicans "yielding to a superior population, insensibly oozing into her territories, changing her customs, and out-living, exterminating her weaker blood."

1846-1848 U.S. Army battles Mexico, not just enforcing the new Texas border at the Rio Grande but capturing Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and California (as well as marching as far south as Mexico City).

1848 Mexico surrenders on U.S. terms (U.S. takes over ownership of New Mexico, California, an expanded Texas, and more, for a token payment of $15 million, which leads the Whig Intelligencer to report: "We take nothing by conquest....Thank God").

(date unknown) General Ulysses S. Grant calls the Mexican War "the most unjust war ever undertaken by a stronger nation against a weaker one."

Primary Source: "We take nothing by conquest, Thank God", in A People's History Of the United States, 1492-Present, Howard Zinn, NY: HarperCollins Publishers, Inc. (This book is available on the shelf at virtually every bookstore in America. The New York Times Book Review says it "...should be required reading for a new generation of students...." )


http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/guadalu3.htm

[RZM]

324. I'm not disputing the history here

Nor am I disputing the role that business interests have in the illegal immigration issue. It's very clear that they want cheap labor, though that's not the only reason they are here. Some on the left are in favor of open borders for their own reasons as well. It's really a rather odd convergence of interests.

We all know that the US acquired territory in the southwest through conquest (though on some level or another of course, much of the rest of the US was acquired by force as well), though plenty of today's Hispanic population are not descended from people that were living in the southwest in the 1840s. Some are, but even many of them are dyed-in-the-wool Americans at this point. Plenty of American Hispanics trace their heritage to other parts of Latin America so you can't argue that their homelands were stolen by the US.

[defendandprotect]

169. True ....

and we need him to stand up against US imperialism as pushed by Cheney who

was quite an angry white man!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=225204&mesg_id=229041



:)

[LanternWaste]

239. You appear to conflate "need" with "have"

You appear to conflate "need" with "have"

Each has a precise and relevant definition, neither being predicated on the other.

[Exilednight]

8. Hersh is right on the money, as usual! n/t

[snot]

52. What's interesting is, they try to frame it to discredit him

but then DO repeat many interesting points from his talk, none of which sound implausible.

And am I the only one who thinks his face looks awfully magenta?

[RufusTFirefly]

59. Yes. It's a hit piece pure and simple. They aren't even subtle about it.

And it's working perfectly, apparently.

What's troubling is that in reading the outraged responses, I'm finding it difficult to differentiate the deliberate obfuscators from the honestly obtuse.

[sabrina 1]

109. He's never been wrong before.

He was right way back in 2003 when he said we were torturing people. That was when we cared about such things. He was called a conspiracy theorist and a traitor then also. By the right!

[RufusTFirefly]

138. And fittingly, this distorted account is already a big hit with the Right.

Whatta shock. (Not.) Shades of Shirley Sherrod. Sigh.

Fox News (Nuff said.)
NewsBusters ("Exposing and Combating Liberal Media Bias")
Global Financial Meltdown (Currently running a complimentary story on Glenn Beck on its Home page.)
The Weekly Standard (Neocon Pravda)

etc., etc...

[RufusTFirefly]

11. Memo to Foreign Policy: Be sure to make it all about Hersh, not about what he said

Otherwise it might make too much sense.

(Just a guess, I don't think the photo of Hersh came from his publicist.)

[JuniperLea]

13. Anger doesn't help anything...

Remaining civil while the world around you goes crazy and angry is a gift.

[datasuspect]

17. except it doesn't accomplish jack shit

[JuniperLea]

22. You've got to be kidding me...

Are you that hateful that you can't even see what has been accomplished?

[ProSense]

25. He needs to go all Sarah Palin.

You betcha.

Ridiculous.

[JuniperLea]

27. Can you imagine?

What do people want, demolition derby? Roller derby?




When do we all grow up? This slap fight is beyond ridiculous.

[Duke Newcombe]

58. When you're dealing with people...

...who only understand strength and force, sometimes you do have to channel your inner Roller Derby participant.

Or is it okay with you that this president always, without fail, starts his negotiating position by negotiating against the progressive position?

[JuniperLea]

179. Nonviolence is always the better choice...

There are a lot of people in this country. Some are fringe left, some left/progressive, some center, some right, some fringe right. Obama has always started from the center. He is everyone's President, not just yours. And he's pragmatic... he doesn't let the best get in the way of the good.

I always knew this about him... I paid very close attention before I voted for him. I still don't like the war crap... nonviolence, as I said before, is always the better choice.

[datasuspect]

32. sarah palin is a media ploy

and inapplicable to the discussion, unless you just like casting asparagus for some reason.

what are you really trying to say?

[ProSense]

38. And the

President wasn't elected to be an "angry black man."

Want theater, go to the movies.

[datasuspect]

41. what's wrong with an angry black man?

[ProSense]

51. Why do you need that to be the President's profile?

What purpose does that serve?

The assertion and discussion is ridiculous.

[Towlie]

78. Actually, he WAS elected to be an "angry black man" - a man who promised us change.

... and that was why I voted for him, but as it turned out, "theater" is what the campaign turned out to be.

[ProSense]

112. So only an "angry black man" can effect change?

What if one of the other candidates had won. Should the next President be an "angry black man" if one is reguired in order for change to occur?

Ridiculous crap.

[Fuddnik]

81. Cast some asparagus at me.

I love asparagus!

[TalkingDog]

133. Hi Fuddnik, Welcome to DU

Don't know how long you've lurked, but casting asparagus is a slap at frequent Free Republic spelling faux pas.

Casting aspersions is the English equivalent.

Just saying howdy and welcoming you to the rambunctious family.

[datasuspect]

30. being angry doesn't mean you hate anyone

anger is an appropriate response to when you're dealing with the unacceptable.

anyone who gets anything done isn't really concerned with what others think.

[JuniperLea]

183. If that's the case, why is it you can't see what's been done?

Your second comment is pretty out there...

[treestar]

49. Angry people not only accomplish nothing, they cause more damage.

[druidity33]

75. oh, please...

Anger, like any emotion, can be channeled into Positive actions and you well know it.

Letting Anger get the best of you is a totally different story however. Anger can be scary and seductive, but it can be used effectively... one just needs to know how.

:shrug:

[rapturedbyrobots]

87. 2 days after MLK day

tell that to the millions of angry and indignant people who participated in the civil rights movement. you better believe they were ANGRY and not taking shit anymore. tell them they just caused more damage.

[populistdriven]

113. +1000000000000000000

[treestar]

119. They obviously had control of themselves

Or they would have made bombs, not started protests. Calm and rational people arranged for the protests.

[bengalherder]

200. You understand. n/t

[pscot]

92. You think MLK did more harm than good?

[treestar]

120. Now that's really unfair. MLK was calm and collected.

REally that shows how dishonest some arguments are.

[defendandprotect]

259. Hersh didn't call for "calm and collected black men" --

And you know that full well -- if there is any disingenuousness here,

it's in your post --

Martin Luther King certainly was angry -- justifiably so -- with Vietnam --

with conditions of the poor -- and just as Bobby Kennedy was --

Anger can be moral outrage -- outrage at hypocrisy -- outrage at lies --

outrage at exploitation of the weak among us -- anger at Segregation, Inc.

and its legacy -- anger at wealth redistribution from the many to the few --

anger at war -- anger at political betrayals -- anger with political lies --

and the many injustices of US imperialism and its racism --

What DU needs is a good dose of justified anger --

[treestar]

326. MLK kept his cool

that's how he accomplished things.

He may have been angry but he did not let it get the best of him. He controlled it and kept his cool.

He was not angry in the end. He was understanding of the human condition. He did not dwell on anger. That's how he did what he did.

[pscot]

308. That stung you

because you know it's true.

[TBF]

95. And what exactly are calm & collected people doing - besides robbing us blind. nt

[treestar]

121. Well maybe they would not get away with it if you calmed down?

And came up with a rational plan, rather than just hating everyone else for not fixing everything for you?

[TBF]

154. That has got to be the number one conversation ender - "come up with a plan"

you're not nearly as naive as you let on.

My plan is worldwide socialism and we get there by people rising up, as they are in Europe, as they just did in Tunisia, as they will in this country eventually. Even you will not be able to stop that.

[defendandprotect]

262. +1 --

and wasn't "bail them out" a plan?

Some plans we should skip!

[emulatorloo]

279. So what is your plan to get people to rise up?

[TBF]

312. And there is that "plan" thing again - my "plan" is to keep pointing

out the truth no matter how many of you try to obscure it. I personally will not have to do much more than that because this Congress, with President Obama at the lead, is going to start the plan in motion with his SOTU address. He is going to lead the charge of austerity, and there will be massive cuts to the safety nets. I didn't have to have a "plan" to watch Europe rise did I? The youth have no jobs and are standing around doing nothing. Of course they are going to talk to each other and eventually resist.

[populistdriven]

110. passion would work nicely as well nt

[Arkana]

255. Oh really? And what does irrational anger accomplish? Please, I'm all fucking ears.

[Doctor_J]

31. Christ on a bike

How's the president's civility serving him and the country so far?

[datasuspect]

33. 10 roger on that

all that namby pamby touchy-feely bipartisanship has really worked out for the american worker. yeah, right.

[populistdriven]

111. +1

[ProSense]

36. "How's the president's civility serving him and the country so far?"

People aren't shooting up each other and spitting on them at the President's suggestive language. They aren't throwing bricks through the windows of executives and Republicans.

We don't need a President who is less than civil, and the implication that he needs to be to get things done is ridiculous.

[Doctor_J]

42. Yes, and the shooters and brick throwers are taking over the country

a fact that might have escaped you. He's being rolled over because he never fights them on anything. He should have been very, very angry at:

1. Don Siegelman being in jail on a political prosecution
2. George Bush approving torture and rendition
3. Dick Cheney approving torture and rendition
4. The US Attorney's office being staffed by political flunkies instead of qualified prosecuters
5. John Yoo's and Jay Bybee's criminal law interpretation
6. Bitch McConnell holding up every piece of legislation that came to him.

more

[ProSense]

45. Nothing stoping you from joining in.

Let's all be angry, right?

[Bluenorthwest]

46. If you exclude his hate preacher surrogates he's civil

If you do not think some hate monger calling for war on a minority is uncivil and utterly disgusting, then he is civil. If you think religious people have a right to slander those minority groups they do not like, from Democratic event platforms, then he's civil.
I think of him as extremely rude at ease with highly self serving bigoted speech which is inappropriate for a civil servant. His whole song and dance about who is and who is not 'sanctified by God' is not only rude, but simply not his purvey, not his bee's knees. A trash talking busy body. Not civil, not at all.
Better try to claim another stretch of high ground, this patch is called McClurkin Acres and you would rather not start seeing the videos and quotes again, I'm sure. No high ground for him on civility. Weakness is not civility.

[sabrina 1]

116. No, they're doing it to Democrats because they perceive Democrats

to be weak and unlikely to defend themselves. Nice image we have. And they know our president and the MSM will force democrats to share the blame.

Btw, you DO know that this president thinks 'both sides are doing it' and 'we ALL need to calm down', don't you?

[russspeakeasy]

130. It is serving him quite well...The country? No so much.

[JuniperLea]

185. You're kidding, right?

You can't see that this holds him above the fracas? He's talking to the Chinese right now... do you think he should get all testy with them as well? Our new owners/overlords would eat us alive. Do you not get that his demeanor really pisses the RW off because they can't get a rise out of him?

You're missing a lot... that is unless you really are kidding.

[Doctor_J]

246. It's you who are missing a lot

the November elections were a referendum on Obama's presidency. Obviously the electorate is not all that enamored with his demeanor. Giving in to the minority (or "staying above the fray" as you put it) has been a disaster.

[JuniperLea]

250. Oh for fuck's sake... please stop with the RW talking points already...

It was NOT a referendum FCOL. It's actually less bothersome than any other mid-term congressional election in American history.

Seriously, these talking points are ridiculous.

[girl gone mad]

43. To quote the Clash..

"Let fury have the hour, anger can be power
Do you know that you can use it?"

If you want to know what anger can achieve, take a look at the record of the man we honored yesterday. Don't ever believe that anger and civility are exclusive qualities. Here was a man who embodied righteous anger and almost superhuman civility, and look at what he accomplished. I would take another person like him any day of the week over what passes for "leadership" these days.

[KatyMan]

50. Excellent point, very well said nt

nt

[bbgrunt]

60. righteous anger is indeed needed!

[hulka38]

140. +1

Outstanding.

[JuniperLea]

190. Punk bands are hardly what I'd call a good source...

For moral behavior. If they were, I'd be Piss Drunk right now!



And I don't believe your take on MLK's history! Really? You never heard him speak about nonviolence? That's one of the reasons he embraced Joan Baez and her staunch nonviolent teachings!



You can be angry without inciting anger in others... you can be angry without being violent too.

[bengalherder]

204. Righteous anger...

There is what is known as 'fire in the belly', the drive that comes from indignation and , yes, ANGER, at how oneself and others are treated in this world.

That is what changes things, not capitulation and avoidance out of fear of confrontation.

[druidity33]

282. you've reminded me...

of a similar lyric by the Sugarcubes (Bjork's old band):

"Don't act like there's no tomorrow!
You should use the pain and sorrow...
to fill you up with power.
Life's both sweet and sour."

from Fucking in Rhythm & Sorrow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpBOibusx2M

an excellent song and lyrics... despite their limited grasp of English (1987)

:)

[treestar]

48. Exactly. Keeping your head puts you way ahead of angry people.

Angry people are not wise.

[JuniperLea]

191. Yep... Joan and Martin are my heros in that regard...

[Union Scribe]

66. A gift too few of his most ardent supporters on DU seem to share.

Just judging by a lot of these posts.

[gulliver]

134. Anger is addictive and makes people stupid and miserable.

It's the meth of the American people. Used rarely, anger increases courage and brings change. But it's a serious, self-defeating vice otherwise. It narrows your perceptive focus, increases your heart rate, and raises thoughts of revenge and attack. "Hit bad thing with stick." It's fine to visit but a bad place to live.

[JuniperLea]

194. That was so very well said!

Thank you! That sounded like something out of Joan Baez's play book!

[DoBotherMe]

235. That's what I was thinking about last night:

All this gun buying and waving and shooting -- it's just another addiction. I mean when did owning and carrying a handgun or assault weapon become a status symbol? It's just craziness. Dana ; )

[Catherina]

147. The civility of illegal wars and predator drones. How lovely!

Forgive me if I don't dab my tears with a lace hankerchief.

WAKE UP! They're waging war against us. Which side are you on?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dr05tXktSo

[marmar]

14. I respect the hell out of Sy Hersch, and his point is an entirely valid one, but......

..... I really wish he could have done it without invoking the stereotype.

[madmax]

20. Agree, love Hersch - but, let's get a grip. nt

[defendandprotect]

174. It was intended to contrast with Bush/Cheney Imperialism and racism ....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=225204&mesg_id=229041

[emulatorloo]

283. THEN HE SHOULD OF CALLED CHENEY A RACIST AND BEEN DONE WITH IT

and not tried to get all clever with one of the most negative racist slams around.

[madmax]

15. Any suggestions since Malcolm X is dead.

"By any means necessary." Yes, I know he mellowed before his assassination.

[datasuspect]

34. i bet brother malcolm would respond with laughter

because the situation, as fucked as it is, is entirely laughable.

[Catherina]

150. Malcolm would have mercilessly and truthfully eviscerated this President.

As would have Martin Luther King. Obama exploited and totally betrayed the Dream.

[defendandprotect]

176. +1000% --

[MessiahRp]

271. I don't have enough plusses for this.

Dead fucking on.

Rp

[MrSlayer]

18. Hersh nails it.

It's amazing that so many people just don't get it.

[sendero]

73. I used to think..

...., most Republican voters were stupid, and I still do. But now I realize that Democrats are really not much better.

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. LOL!

[Peace Patriot]

35. Sounds to me like it was uphill all the way! If it wasn't for Seymour Hersh, Paul Krugman

and other courageous and true journalists--so few and far between, and almost entirely missing from the corpo-fascist media--and people like you, kpete, and many other DUers and other public-minded people who are helping to inform and educate--I think I would despair. Maybe I wouldn't. I'm pretty tough. And it would take a lot to kill my hope in our democracy and our people. But these are a rare breed of journalist--Hersh, Krugman and a few others--who tell it like it is. They are a joy to read, even when they are revealing unspeakable horrors or unspeakable larceny. The truth is refreshing, no matter how hard to the truths are. Foreign Policy naturally hates them--especially Hersh. They are truly nothing but cat box liner "of, by and for" the "military-industrial complex" in this current, worst manifestation. Their opinion counts for nothing as to the public interest. In fact, their dripping sarcasm and pathetic effort to demean Hersh is high praise.

I share Hersh's disappointment in Obama. I hope against hope that he is struggling against shackles that we know not of--perhaps some of his own making, deals he made in exchange for limited power--and other shackles that he really can't throw off without being assassinated. I hope he's doing what he can in a bad situation. And I hope that I am misreading his style and that it is not indifference. But it's a struggle.

I would be most interested to hear what else Hersh had to say--but not with this twisted "spin." I'm bloody sick of this kind of "framing."

[RufusTFirefly]

44. +1

PeacePatriot, your thoughtful response is a welcome antidote to all the blather and bloviating.

[BrklynLiberal]

77. +1000

[sabrina 1]

128. Yes, I looked for another interpretation of his speech but haven't

found one yet.

Hersch has always riled the ruling class and their supporters it seems.

I also remember before the facts were fully known, seeing him in an interview, around early 2004 I think, about the war. He implied that there were things going on that he was 'afraid to speak of'. The interviewer asked him 'what would you suggest we do'? He responded 'get a second passport'. He seemed genuinely scared and now I think his worst fears have been realized, especially for the people of the two countries we invaded.

I think that was because he knew the country had been taken over basically, and if it continued on the path it was on, it would just continue a downward slide. And he was right.

But one other thing he said back then, that even I did not believe, or did not want to believe, in another speech he gave was that children were being raped and tortured by U.S. troops. I couldn't believe it as it was just too horrible to contemplate. But again, he was proven to be correct.

I like many of the comments on that article, those who know Hersch knows he doesn't say things he is not sure of.

given

Hersh's excellent record of revealing the secret goings-on of our government, I think this article damages Hounshell's reputation -- not Hersh's.

......

Spare our intelligence

Riiiight. Seymour Hersh's - who's track record of getting dirty under his fingers, dodging bullets and death threats and a reputation for speaking the truth to power - is gonna get torn down by a purely editorialized propaganda, half-literate blabbing by whatshisname? Oh, something Hounsell (never heard of him). One only knows that if its from the pen of a blogger from this website, it will surely be totally against anything someone with integrity, like Seymour Hersch. Hounsell knows that all he has to do is say, his speech went downhill from there, and all the puppets and parrots will squawk the same because whathisname said so (no substantiation necessary).

[malaise]

37. When has US foreign policy changed

Under which President from the end of World War II. We can dream on.

[WinkyDink]

39. And that went "downhill"?

[treestar]

47. Er, no, we would not get anywhere with an angry anything

[MadMaddie]

55. I unrecd this

Sorry he could have made his statement, "What we need is an angry president"! Why use "Black"!

If President Obama were to display anger the reactiion would not be oh the President is angry it would take on negative conotations. Everyone here knows it.

I don't have a problem with him going after the military establishment and the religious underones that we have hearing about. It's a dangerous mix.

Within the article I don't see anything good has occurred? You know like staving off the 2nd Great Depression (whether you liked the way it was handled or not)....

President Obama is a man just like all other Presidents and as citizens we are allowed to support or criticize his decisions.

[Blue-Jay]

63. Yep.

My first thought was "Angry Black Man"? REALLY?

Hersh is usually better than that, you know...for a stereotypically frugal sort of guy.

[Mr Generic Other]

57. according to the Urban Dictionary online an "Angry Black Man" is

1. Angry Black Man

This is a term used in sports, and most commonly in basketball. It is when a black player on one team gets real pissed, and goes into Angry Black Man mode or ABM. The player then becomes unstoppable, and only stops once he is no longer angry.

Signs of ABM are when a player dunks and looks pissed, or makes a jump shot and looks pissed instead of happy.
Tracy McGrady is unstoppable once he enters Angry Black Man

or

a drink made from all the sodas in the fountain mixed together in equal amounts.

i believe that Hersh was using the first definition of this phrase in his article and believe it was perfectly acceptable.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=angry%20black%20man

[defendandprotect]

178. How do they describe "angry white men" .... ??? We do have a few around, you know ...

Like Cheny/Bush and their racist "Crusade" in ME --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=225204&mesg_id=229041

[mmonk]

61. That reminds me.

I got my bill from the Council On Foreign Relations (they always try to get me to pay for years ahead). Despite the bad policy writers, there are some good ones too.

[tritsofme]

62. Sounds like he fell off the deep end. Rambling about "Opus Dei" and the Knights of Malta...

Can black helicopters and chem-trails be far behind?

[defendandprotect]

184. Why would anyone consider "Christians" a threat?

Not like GOP hasn't been pushing "Christianity" and "Crusades" for decades now!!

Including via our Pentagon/Rumsfeld -- and even reports on lawsuits last week here at DU!

GOP gave start-up funding for the Christian Coalition --

Richard Scaife financed Dobson's organization --

and other wealthy right wingers financed Bauer's organization. Why? See below*

Did you notice what the new Governor of Alabma had to say at his swearing in ...

re only "Christians" being his brothers and sisters -- and not any others???

Palin is a "Christian" we are also learning to fear -- how about Glenn Beck?

O'Reilly a "Christian" -- wasn't that him pushing for the murder of Dr. Tiller?

Catch up --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=225204&mesg_id=229041




* The YOUTH REVOLUTION of the late 1960's was hardly simply about sex --

it was an overall threat to patriarchal authority which had to be shored up --


"I realized that in this country we had a revolution--of housing, food, hair style, clothing, cosmetics, transportation, value systems, religion--it was an economic revolution, affecting the cosmetics industry, canned foods, the use of land; people were delivering their own babies, recycling old clothes, withdrawing from spectator sports. They were breaking the barriers where white and black could rap in 1967. This was the year of the Beatles, the summer of Sergeant Pepper, the Monterey Pop Festival, Haight-Ashbury, make your own candle and turn off the electricity, turn on with your friends and laugh--that's what life was all about."



http://maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Ballad%20of%20Mae%20Brussell.html

[Peace Patriot]

310. Don't forget the guy who funded ES&S, which just bought out Diebold,

achieving an 80% monopoly on U.S. voting systems, all run on 'TRADE SECRET' code--code that "we the people" are forbidden to review--with virtually no audit/recount controls.

Who funded ES&S? Reclusive rightwing billionaire Howard Ahmanson, who also gave one million dollars to the extremist 'christian' Chalcedon foundation, which touts the death penalty for homosexuals (among other things).

'Counting' all our votes with 'TRADE SECRET' code.

Obama was permitted to be elected (I think he really was but it's VERY important to realize that he was also permitted to be), and will be in office just long enough for the corpo-fascist press to blame what the Bush Junta did to us--destroyed our government and economy--on Obama, then we'll have Bush Junta II, for the final looting (and probably an oil war in South America). The far rightwing and their multinational corporate/war profiteer backers have the capability--the EASY capability--to do this. How do we think these soulless, prating scumbags got control of Congress? It's just laughable that anybody believes they were elected. 'TRADE SECRET' code, friends, controlled by one of the more secretive, far rightwing corporations in the world. What do we friggin expect?

Anyhow, only way we're going to get out of this nightmare is a widespread citizen movement, in every local/state jurisdiction in the country, to restore TRANSPARENT vote counting. We MUST get our voting system back. Nothing else is possible without it. And it's still a doable thing. But people are very demoralized and I don't see it happening any time soon.

[jakeXT]

295. Obama sure is no JFK, who spoke against secret societies

http://www.archive.org/details/jfks19610427

[tavalon]

64. We needed an angry President who was angry for the little people

Black, white, orange, male, female, other. That's the nugget. We got a go along to get along President when we needed a firebrand. That he used the "angry black man" meme is quite unfortunate and mars what he was trying to say. Seymour Hersh is an indefatigable ally who said one thing wrong in his frustration.

[avaistheone1]

65. k&r

[pnorman]

67. Bill Maher: “I think I'll go with the calm black man”

Didn't everyone here on DU CHEER when he said that?

[defendandprotect]

186. Let's not suggest that Bill Maher supports Obama ... !!

[pnorman]

216. He's a ballzy 'in your face" comedian!

We'll probably NEVER know who he truly supports (if he actually does support anyone). But that quote was not only accurate, but quite relevant to the OP.

Myself? I fucking SHUDDER at the thought of a Reptilican victory in 2012, and I fully support whoever can prevent that, So far, and by a very wide margin, it looks like Obama!

[defendandprotect]

221. Maher has made quite clear his feelings about Obama -- not positve ...

There was a video up last week on his last show --

My conscience won't let me vote for more war so both Obama and Biden are out

for me -- carry on if you must!

I'll be waiting for someone like Bernie Sanders -- he can run on a Dem ticket --

so could many others -- Tom Hayden, for instnce.

[pnorman]

270. You got me there, podner!

I'm totally off the TV Matrix, and get most of my info from the internet, and I must have missed have missed that. But I repeat: If Obama is primaried out in 2012, it will take a very looong time to undo all the resulting damage! I don't think we have all that much time, and some of it may be irreversible.

In 2000, I (and many others on DU) supported Ralph Nader over Joe Lieberman. ("There's not a dime's worth of difference between...."). we all know how that worked out. But in retrospect, that was a faaar more responsible move than primarying Obama out in 2012!

[defendandprotect]

313. What will be left of government ....

after 4 years of Obama -- ?

The Repugs are already talking about overturning child labor laws -- not that

they haven't already really dented them -- would Obama resist? - and under guise of

"bipartisanship" a lot of strange things have happened!!

Obviously we now have one far right party and one radical right party --

and the "differences" are fading fast!


Re this ...

In 2000, I (and many others on DU) supported Ralph Nader over Joe Lieberman. ("There's not a dime's worth of difference between...."). we all know how that worked out. But in retrospect, that was a faaar more responsible move than primarying Obama out in 2012!

Of course we didn't then and still don't have IRV voting which most other nations have.

We have the two parties cooperating on political issues and they've put a private corporation

in charge of the debates ensuring that we hear limited debate --

2000 was primarily a right wing steal -- and in the end Gore won -- but by the time we got

that news, we had 9/11 -- and our Congress was shut down for 6 months or so by Anthrax!

There are a couple of hundred reasons why Nader had nothing to do with W's alledged "win"

in Florida -- the win was 576 votes --

Well, 300,000 "Democrats" in Florida voted for Bush -- and a long list of other third party

candidates took tens of thousands of votes -- on and on -- and I'm sure you know this.

The GOP-sponsored a fascist rally to physically stop the vote counting in Miami-Dade County

which was mandated by the Florida SC Court to count the 128,000 votes that had never been

counted. The rally turned into near-violence and wasn't intereferred with by the Florida

Police -- and succeeded in stopping the counting.

W then took the case to the US Supreme Court -- and the right wing Gang of 5 put him in the

White House.

Again -- re Obama and 2012 -- it's a matter of conscience for me -- I can't vote for more

of this warmongering -- for another $760 million Embassy in Iraq -- for drones over Pakistan

-- for more back room deals with private health care industry. For letting the MIC march on

and $1 billion on our debt every day while Obama seems ready to cut Social Security?

In the last deal -- tax cuts -- there's already a $500 billion cut in Medicare for 2014!

Total flips between what candidate Obama said and what President Obama does.

I even dread simply two more years of this!



Fingers crdossed for us all --

:)

[pnorman]

317. With the notable exception of Nader in 2000, I've voted straight Democratic.

This was from Adlai Stevenson to Barack Obama. But all my adult life I've been on the Left, and although you're free to challenge it, I still am. Hence, I'm far from unmindful of your feelings; at other times my own matched your own.

But not being a card-carrying Christian, my core beliefs ("Anarchism") are founded on Ethical Humanism. And that's neither "Left" nor "Right", nor "Libertarian" nor "Authoritarian". So although I'm close to my own expiration date, I'm HORRIFIED at the thought of the consequences of a Republican victory in 2012! That's what moves me more than every other thing!

[defendandprotect]

318. Why would you think ....

that I'm challenging you being on the left or a liberal?

And, recovering Catholic, atheist here -- and Humanist -- though never did catch

up with the actual group activity!

I'm horrified at what Obama is doing -- and I'm horrified of what the GOP may do.

But my conscience has decided to take a stand -- it's not only Obama which is

horrific enough -- it's also Biden and his questionable history and his spending a

year now calling for Israel to attack Iran! Biden keeps repeating: "Israel would

be justified in attacking Iran!" And do we think there would be no role in that

theater for the US?

We have to take a stand against these wars and somehow stop them -- they're illegal

and immoral -- and they're bankrupting our Treasury, which is a guaranteed way to

destroy democracy.

It sucks!

[cali]

68. whatever else one may think of what Hersh said in this lecture,

his comment about needing "an angry black man", is simply racist.

[democracy1st]

69. explain plz

[cali]

71. first of all, it feeds into the mythical negative "angry black man"

second of all why the descriptor of race?

[pscot]

96. Except it's niether mythical or negative

unless one is afraid of one's own history.

[ProSense]

117. Oh please

It's a lame excuse to pin his disappointment with the country on the President.

There is nothing positive about invoking the phrase "angry black man."

Attributing his disappointment to the fact that Obama isn't an "angry black man" demonstrates either a complete lack of knowledge about the government or obtuse thinking.

[superduperfarleft]

118. Are you black? n/t

[emulatorloo]

280. The phrase was part of the racist arsenal to keep people "in their proper place"

[DevonRex]

93. +1. nt

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tigereye]

76. it was obvious from the getgo that Obama was no firebrand

This is some kind of revelation? :shrug:

[Poboy]

79. Recommend

[Better Believe It]

83. "a rambling, conspiracy-laden diatribe" Does the writer have a slight right-wing bias?

Journalism that takes a stand against liberalism and peaceniks!

[defendandprotect]

193. Looks like Council on Foreign Relations connection ... but speech was given at Georgetown?

And it was actually Hersh pointing to the racism of the Bush/Cheney years

in US Imperialism -- as he related it --

Cheney: Don't they get it? We're gonna change mosques into cathedrals. And when we get all the oil, nobody's gonna give a damn.'"


From the article --

Hounshell purposefully didn't use that as the headline -- rather tried to

engineer a racist slant by Hersh --

[superduperfarleft]

84. I'll put my "hater" credentials up against anyone, and even I think this was a "regrettable" comment

And by "regrettable," I mean pretty fucking racist.

What next, are we going to call him clean and articulate?

[Kweli4Real]

86. I assume that Seymour Hersh understands ...

the racial/racist connotation of that phrase. In this world, the Angry Black Man image is never positive and can never lead to anything productive.

So for this utterance, he has earned, for this instant, the same comtempt that I hold for palin (i.e., Bllod libel).

Those that know better, should do better; those that don't know better, should do nothing.

[thereismore]

88. This is as accurate as his numerous predictions of impending attack on Iran. Remember? nt

[defendandprotect]

196. Have you not heard VP Biden calling for Israel to attack Iran for the last year ...!!!

Biden repeatedly calls for such an attack saying --

"Israel would be justified in attacking Iran" -- !!

And then what would America do?

[thereismore]

228. That's not what Hersh was talking about, IMO. nt

[midnight]

99. I see how another one of Ameirca's finest journalist is being thrown under the bus.

[MadBadger]

123. Hmmm, then he shouldnt use racist stereotypes.

[defendandprotect]

197. Here's the racism that Hersh was revealing ... US Imperialism ....

Cheney: Don't they get it? We're gonna change mosques into cathedrals. And when we get all the oil, nobody's gonna give a damn.'"


From the article -- try reading it!

[superduperfarleft]

124. Oh, please.

Not this melodramatic "zomg under the bus" crap again, just because there may be a disagreement.

And maybe Hersh (like numerous DUers) needs to reflect on his own attitudes towards race before opening his mouth next time.

[emulatorloo]

157. I'm about ready to throw DU under the bus after this thread

It seems like the New DU is ready to embrace any rhetorical strategy to go after Obama, including racist stereotypes.

[superduperfarleft]

168. DU has never been that enlightened when it comes to race issues.

Can't say I'm surprised by this reaction.

[decidedlyso]

129. After next Tuesday night, it will take a lot more than one bus.

[emulatorloo]

151. really? So you have an advanced copy of the SOTU

Because all I have seen so far is bloggers presenting speculation as fact.

P.S. WELCOME TO DU!!!!

[decidedlyso]

206. Thanks. No, but my suspicions have most recently usually proved

accurate. I hope they are wrong this time.

[emulatorloo]

153. America's Finest Journalist should not be using Racist Stereotypes

Honestly it shocks me to see Hersch do that. He's a good journalist, he should know better.

and DU should know better than to embrace the stereotype

[emulatorloo]

156. Self-Delete wrong place

[houstonintc]

103. This is foolish...

An "Angry Black President" is one who won't get all that many votes come 2012.

Obama didn't run even as "the black president", he ran to be President who also happens to be black. This is mainly why he won, and say Al Sharpton never could.

Why play into a fairly insane stereotype?

[Hubert Flottz]

107. K&R

Ain't it the freakin' truth. Time to quit the "Paling around" and get fucking real.

[Renew Deal]

115. Obama didn't run as "the angry guy" like Paladino did.

If Hersh wanted an angry black man, he should have voted for someone else.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marblehead]

127. what we needed was

a real democrat and not a corporatist. Labor in this country is on its last leg..

[defendandprotect]

136. K/R

[colsohlibgal]

141. Sell Out City Continues

The headlines in my local paper are about Obama wanting to further ease regulations for businesses. Not what I wanted to see this morning.

Look at who he appointed to the commission on the debt....and what they've already said.

Yet the happy clappy apologist crowd thinks Obama is doing just fine.

It's all depressing to a lot of us. When oh when will a majority figure this out, when oh when will we get a president to helps them do that?

At this point I see Ronald Reagan as the lead villain, he got the ball rolling and it's rolled all the way to China owning us. Nixon is looking good to me right now and I never thought I'd say that - though on a whole host of things he governed to the left of most of the current democratic party.

[emulatorloo]

149. It troubles me when DU embraces Racist Stereotypes

I get your point of view, I just don't understand the need to promote racist stereotype.

[Poll_Blind]

170. You know better than these shenanigans. See here:

Here

:eyes:

PB

[emulatorloo]

189. I understand. I still think it was a horrible mistake to say that

on Seymour Hersh's part. Way too loaded of a phrase.

He could have made his points without bringing up race.

[Poll_Blind]

146. Hersh is well-known for pushing the envelope in his live speeches but his journalism is much more...

...thoughtful. However, essentially he's right.

PB

[Catherina]

152. Rec'd. n/t

[Mattylock]

162. Sick to death

of folks complaining about this President in a racial context: "I thought a black President would_____"; "As a black man you would think he would be more ____". Just fill in the fucking blank. The man is a man. Those of you who voted for him based on your racial stereotypes deserve to be fucking disappointed.

[Poll_Blind]

167. Heh heh, I think you're missing the Hersch's point: He is poking at the hysteria surrounding...

...Obama's run for the president and his becoming president. Do you not remember this magazine cover?


Or any of the thousands of other ways in which Obama was portrayed in the media as a "militant black". Ayres. Obama's pastor. Any of those things ring a bell? Rounding up the whites? Did you miss all that? The girl who carved a backwards "B" on her face to claim a rabid black supporter of Obama did it?

What Hersch is saying is that with all that flavoring the political soup at the time, we still elected him and it's darkly ironic that this guy, portrayed as such a "rebel" actually turned out to be all company man at a time when we needed and voted for someone to shake things up, to bring some CHANGE.

Geeze.

PB

[Mattylock]

177. I completely understand

Doesn't make me any less sick of it.

[emulatorloo]

182. Agreed. I do not know why race was brought up.

He could have made his points without talking about race at all.

[defendandprotect]

199. Because of US Imperialistic racism as carried forth by Cheney/Bush ... here...

Cheney: Don't they get it? We're gonna change mosques into cathedrals. And when we get all the oil, nobody's gonna give a damn.'"

That's from the article --

[decidedlyso]

201. Reasoned and accurate statement. However, I wasn't expecting

a militant or a radical when I voted for Obama. But nor was I expecting the opposite either. We will all know with absolute clarity next Tuesday night what we must individually and collectively do. And month by month after that day, some of us will know more about whether it is time to leave the country.

[LiberalLovinLug]

263. Thankyou for this explanation

Was it the most tasteful way to express his frustration with Obama's behavior as President? No.

But I think we can give the guy the benefit of the doubt, based on all his previous work, that he meant it as bitter sarcasm, NOT as a put down of black men in general. Sometimes we angry white men say things in the heat of the moment that are over-stated or insensitive in order to push a point home.

Rush, Beck, Hannity, all the other shmoes on the right were just waiting, actually they never even waited until he was sworn in, for the new President's impassioned left wing proclamations about "universal public healthcare" or "investigating war crimes", or "holding big banks responsible for their bad behavior" etc... Instead we had some meek subservient shell of the man we thought we knew when he was giving blistering speeches as a candidate. But that didn't stop the shmoes from going ahead with plan A. I for one wanted him to be an angry black man, or for those of you that can't see through the bitter sarcasm, an impassioned progressive leaning leader, angry at the previous admins abuses, that would disregard the bullies on the right and would forge ahead bravely addressing all those issues that his base was waiting eight long years for him to address.

[ecstatic]

175. wtf? I'm sick of this shallow,

borderline racist bullshit coming from the some on left.

[JuniperLea]

181. Borderline?

I think you are being kind.

[Catherina]

198. Oh please. The racist bullshit is the people who enable the war against the poor

while desperately hurling about charges of racism to shut up critics of the policies that make the poor poor.

The same people who hijacked and then whitewashed Dr King's Dream for political expediency.

[defendandprotect]

203. Exactly ... and here's Cheney speaking for that racist US imperialism ....

Cheney: Don't they get it? We're gonna change mosques into cathedrals. And when we get all the oil, nobody's gonna give a damn.'"

From the article -- !!

Which is what Hersh was trying to point to --



:)

[Catherina]

233. And exactly the point some want to obscure. Long live Martin Luther King!

One day we must come to see that the whole Jericho road must be transformed so that men and women will not be constantly beaten and robbed as they make their journey on life's highway. True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar; it is not haphazard and superficial. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. A true revolution of values will soon look uneasily on the glaring contrast of poverty and wealth. With righteous indignation, it will look across the seas and see individual capitalists of the West investing huge sums of money in Asia, Africa and South America, only to take the profits out with no concern for the social betterment of the countries, and say: "This is not just." It will look at our alliance with the landed gentry of Latin America and say: "This is not just." The Western arrogance of feeling that it has everything to teach others and nothing to learn from them is not just. A true revolution of values will lay hands on the world order and say of war: "This way of settling differences is not just." This business of burning human beings with napalm, of filling our nation's homes with orphans and widows, of injecting poisonous drugs of hate into veins of people normally humane, of sending men home from dark and bloody battlefields physically handicapped and psychologically deranged, cannot be reconciled with wisdom, justice and love. A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death.

...

I say to you today, that if our nation can spend thirty-five billion dollars a year to fight an unjust, evil war in Vietnam, and twenty billion dollars to put a man on the moon, it can spend billions of dollars to put God's children on their own two feet right here on earth...


I want to say to you as I move to my conclusion, as we talk about "Where do we go from here?" that we must honestly face the fact that the movement must address itself to the question of restructuring the whole of American society. There are forty million poor people here, and one day we must ask the question, "Why are there forty million poor people in America?" And when you begin to ask that question, you are raising a question about the economic system, about a broader distribution of wealth. When you ask that question, you begin to question the capitalistic economy. And I'm simply saying that more and more, we've got to begin to ask questions about the whole society. We are called upon to help the discouraged beggars in life's marketplace. But one day we must come to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. It means that questions must be raised. And you see, my friends, when you deal with this you begin to ask the question, "Who owns the oil?" You begin to ask the question, "Who owns the iron ore?" You begin to ask the question, "Why is it that people have to pay water bills in a world that's two-thirds water?" These are words that must be said.

Now, don't think you have me in a bind today. I'm not talking about communism. What I'm talking about is far beyond communism... What I'm saying to you this morning is communism forgets that life is individual. Capitalism forgets that life is social. And the kingdom of brotherhood is found neither in the thesis of communism nor the antithesis of capitalism, but in a higher synthesis. It is found in a higher synthesis that combines the truths of both. Now, when I say questioning the whole society, it means ultimately coming to see that the problem of racism, the problem of economic exploitation, and the problem of war are all tied together. These are the triple evils that are interrelated.

...

MIL - "Beyond Vietnam"

[ProSense]

211. Oh please.

WTF does Obama have to do with enabling the war against the poor?

This is a perfect example of trying to pin decades old problems on the President, and it's not an excuse for racist crap.

Want truth:

<...>

Likewise, if double-digit unemployment had been viewed as the emergency it is, when only people of color were experiencing it (as they typically have been, in good times or bad, year after year throughout this century), perhaps lawmakers might have seen fit to address the problem. But it wasn’t, and so they didn’t. And now whites are experiencing double-digit joblessness as well, for the first time in over three generations.

And if we had not long ago racialized the “have-nots” as undeserving people of color, thereby allowing racial bias to block government actions that might have been taken on their behalf—like universal health care or massive investment in job creation—perhaps we would not today have tens of millions of people, including millions of white folks, lacking access to medical treatment or job security. But we did, and so we do. And now we can witness white folks running around, speaking against health care reforms from which they would personally gain, all because of a fear that some of the benefits might go to “undeserving” immigrants of color, or lazy folks (typically perceived as black and brown) who don’t want to pay for their own care.

<...>

That wasn't a popular thread, but somehow the fact that Seymour Hersh believes that the problem is that Obama isn't an "angry black man" is supposed to be enlightening?

[Name removed]

231. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DeSwiss]

188. Slightly OT:

You know, I'm really, really getting quite tired of so-called journalists, who go around ridiculing and referring to other people's thoughts, ideas and beliefs as "conspiracy-laden" or "conspiracy-theory" as we see in this article. This is what passes for "journalism" today.

No wonder we're screwed.

- Remember: At one time the handful of people who believed in the "germ-theory" would have been thought of as conspiracy-theorists......

K&R

"Apparently, 'conspiracy stuff' is now shorthand for unspeakable truth." ~Gore Vidal

[defendandprotect]

215. Well, that's the CIA "Mockingbird" theme ... "no conspiracies in America" -- laugh, don't think!!

Love Gore comments -- thank you!


:)

[Ticonderoga]

202. As usual, Hersh

knocks one out of the park.

[bobbolink]

205. Written by a journalist committed to independent thought and high ethical values.

"journalist Seymour Hersh delivered a rambling, conspiracy-laden diatribe "

Which school of journalism is promoting such high journalistic standards as this?

[defendandprotect]

210. Well ...

Cheney: Don't they get it? We're gonna change mosques into cathedrals. And when we get all the oil, nobody's gonna give a damn.'"


That's from the article -- Hersh was pointing to the racism of US Imperialism --

and the bias towards "Christianity" in W notions of ME war as a "Crusade."


Speech was given at Georgetown -- and certainly Hounshell holds a Council on Foreign

Relations view point quite opposed to Hersh's.

Note that Cheney's comments weren't used as the headline --

And, lastly, we have a fine tradition of morally outraged black men in MLK, Jr. and

Thurgood Marshall -- justified moral outrage for the victims of US imperialism --

and for the poor these wars create. Including domestically.

[bobbolink]

213. I understand and agree with you... just don't see how that is connected to my criticism of the

obvious lack of ethical journalism of the writer.

[defendandprotect]

218. It's connected ...

because Hersh used a right wing "stereotype" of an "angry black man" to

point to the need for more Thurgood Marshall's and more Martin Luther King's ---

African Americans who were morally outraged at American racism --


and the need for less American imperialism which is racist --

Let me repeat Cheney's comment for you again -- because I wonder that after reading

what Cheney said that you're not outraged?

Cheney: Don't they get it? We're gonna change mosques into cathedrals. And when we get all the oil, nobody's gonna give a damn.'"

[bobbolink]

220. sigh.... I was only commenting on the one part I quoted.

I'm fresh out of outrage.

[Uzybone]

212. nice dose of leftist racism

why buy into these stereotypes?

The point can easily be made without the caricature of the seething mad black man.

[Mattylock]

223. Exactly.

[SemperEadem]

214. no you don't. Because if he was an angry black man, that's all everyone

would be focusing on.

[Roland99]

237. Exhibiting the frustration level we all feel.

[Enrique]

238. bad quote, but I don't trust this person's account of Hersh's speech

he seems not to like Hersh.

[RufusTFirefly]

245. Correct. The entire article -- the photo, the headline, and the snarky phrasing -- is a hit piece

Everything from the blotchy-looking picture of Hersh to phrases like "rambling, conspiracy-laden diatribe" and "his arm perched jauntily on the podium" was designed to ridicule and discredit him. And no wonder: Hersh has been a thorn in the side of American imperialism for four decades. The Dark Prince himself, Richard Perle, called Hersh "the closest thing American journalism has to a terrorist," after Hersh wrote a piece that Perle stood to benefit financially from an invasion of Iraq.

Sy Hersh is like an older, more established version of Julian Assange. With a Pulitzer to prove it. It makes perfect sense that there's such an effort to discredit him.

For heaven's sake, even the notorious NewsBusters ran a better photo of the guy

[Blecht]

247. Exactly

Hit piece is right -- good observations.

[RZM]

251. Sy Hersh isn't Julian Assange at all

He's a journalist who works sources. He doesn't just dump raw information for all to see.

[RufusTFirefly]

258. Fair enough. Weak analogy. Assange is more like Ellsberg

Shining a light on incriminating information that the public should be aware of but isn't.

Hersh has spent his career building a Rolodex full of reliable whistle-blowers in and out of government and then reporting on the information they supplied.

What links Assange and Hersh together, however, is the powerful's intense antipathy toward accountability and transparency. That makes both men bêtes noire (oh, the irony!) as far as elites are concerned.

By the way, the notion that Assange simply "dumps raw information" is a false and damaging one that, intentionally or not, serves to discredit him. Wikileaks has been quite selective about the information it has released.

[RZM]

265. I'm sure they do editing regarding which documents to publish and which not

But I don't get the sense they edit the individual documents much, hence the designation of the information contained as 'raw.'

Sy Hersh has made enemies for obvious reasons. But I do wonder if some of his sources are playing a double game and feed him false info every now and then. Using Sy Hersh wouldn't be a bad way to disseminate deliberate disinformation.

[RufusTFirefly]

269. Agreed once again.

Although Assange's group decides which documents to release, I think it would undermine its credibility if there were evidence that it was actually editing individual documents (other than demonstrably blacking out names, perhaps.)

As for whether Hersh is ever the victim of a double-game, I'm sure he's been around the block enough times to know that he has to be very careful. That said, I'd be surprised if he hasn't been burned a number of times. Sources often selectively leak documents in order to serve a particular agenda. What they omit can be at least as telling as what they submit. Here's an instance though were Hersh's age (and presumed wisdom) probably works in his favor. This is also why most journalists still maintain a "second source" rule, although the growth of sensationalism as well as the 24/7 news cycle makes it tempting to cut corners.

[madrchsod]

240. i`m trying to figure out what seymour said wrong....

oh well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[defendandprotect]

256. Nothing ... the headline is a ruse to keep evereyone from reading the article !!

Cheney: Don't they get it? We're gonna change mosques into cathedrals. And when we get all the oil, nobody's gonna give a damn.'"


Also talks about those left over in Cheney's VP office moving on to Joint Special Operations

Command -- controlling foreign policy -- i.e., US imperialsm/racism.

[Phlem]

249. I see the "everything's just fine" crowd is in here

spreading ignorance.

I'll have to say that MR. Hersh is spot on.

Rec.

-p

[Arkana]

254. Yeah, cause what we need is Malcolm fucking X in the White House.

News flash: Just because Obama's black doesn't mean he needs to be a stereotype as well. Jesus fucking christ on a pogo stick.

[BlueJac]

261. No matter what is being said............

Obama is a hugh let down and a Bush policy carry-over kind of guy.

MIC=$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[NoodleyAppendage]

266. The TRUTH apparently hurts. Hersh has been CONSISTENTLY correct.

If you don't like the message, then do something about it in 2012.

Hersh is not providing anything other than supportive evidence for what many of us have long suspected.

J

[emulatorloo]

286. You may need to re-read the objections then.

He is being called out for using a vile racist stereotype, one that was used by white racists to keep black men 'in there place."

IMHO it was a huge rhetorical mistake. I admire Hersh's work, I don't think he is a racist.

[Cherchez la Femme]

272. As much as I love Seymour

we don't need, for President, neither a necessarily 'black',
nor a 'man'

and this President doesn't have to be 'angry' -- what we need is a person with principles and an eye towards justice and the rule of law. Period.

[Phlem]

315. Instead we got the "Great Conciliator"

no eye for justice or the rule of law. Period

-p

[rtassi]

276. How the public acquiesced pretty well says it all ...

I disagree with having an angry Obama, like all that would do is get him dead!

[mochajava666]

287. I was just looking for vertebrate. Angry would have been a bonus

A little backbone would have gone a long way.

[MasonJar]

289. Seymour Hersh is no racist. He is a fine journalist and a great thinker.

The poster is upset because Hersh denigrated Obama. Obama is proving more to be a more GOPer like clone every day. He is talking about cutting social security. He just announced plans to look into whether there are too many regulations. He would not put even feelers out for single payer. Obama is not liberal. It is time DU recognized that fact. He is very moderate.

[Number23]

290. VOMIT. Unrec Although I expect to see this happily atop DU's front page

with a million recs so that the entire Internet can see the tripe that's gets lauded here.

[Number23]

293. Kpete, thanks for this thread. I take comfort in knowing that every single person

who agrees with this racist, pointless statement seem to be the EXACT SAME ONES who dare to tell the rest of us how MLK would feel about this president or that MLK or Malcolm would be so disgusted/angry etc. with Obama. Their support of this idiocy proves that they are about as attuned to the concept of racial cohesion as Pat Buchanan and their depth of racial understanding is slightly deeper than that of a child's seldom used wading pool after an exceptionally hot, dry summer.

You have exposed an ugly truth that has been on DU for a long time. I hate this thread and am thankful for it at the same time.

[democracy1st]

320. As Dr Cornell West would say "Hate is very bad thing my brother"

[bluescribbler]

306. An "angry black man" couldn't get elected.

Not a chance.

[RedCloud]

307. More Seymour Hersh. Less See More Corrupt Butts.

[Phlem]

316. Born a half Filipino half American

I've endured, even through my own step father, racism. Monkey was a word used a lot in the house along with other's I can't mention. I've been mistaken as an Eskimo usually being called "blah blah the Eskimo", and a Native American. Not always in a slanderous way but yea, in a slanderous way.

I do not feel racism in Mr. Hersh's voice in the least. I think calling it "racism" is an easy target and that most of us who can't move on, cling to that card.

We needed a good shove in the opposite direction after the tortuous Bush years, instead we got Kumbaya with what seemed like obvious, cut from the same "Goose stepping" cloth Republicans. What is one supposed to think when a Constitutional Scholar fails so bad.

-p

[StarsInHerHair]

323. here's more from the article

..."He also charged that U.S. foreign policy had been hijacked by a cabal of neoconservative "crusaders" in the former vice president's office and now in the special operations community.

"What I'm really talking about is how eight or nine neoconservative, radicals if you will, overthrew the American government. Took it over," he said of his forthcoming book. "It's not only that the neocons took it over but how easily they did it -- how Congress disappeared, how the press became part of it, how the public acquiesced." ........