In 1989, I made $15.00/hour

[Horse with no Name]

as a nurses aide.

I just saw a job posting for the same position paying $7.25/hour...LESS than half 22 years later.

This is what the 1% are doing to your wages.

Coming soon to a profession near you!

This really saddened me because nurses aides are so underpaid and undervalued and the work they do is very hard and very taxing. And now, completely unappreciated.

[NNN0LHI]

1. It was a lot better when everyone's wages were patterned after union workers

Seemed like a lot of people couldn't understand that simple concept.

Don

[Horse with no Name]

6. I was raising two kids and going to school

and we made it without any government assistance.

I daresay that wouldn't be possible these days.

You are so correct. Unions lift us ALL up, whether we are members or not.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

70. IT IS THE DAMN TEMPORARY HELP SERVICES

NOTHING BUT SLAVE LABOR NOW

[Johnny Noshoes]

113. So very true

I have been looking for a job for two months now. So many of them are short term contract jobs, freelance or my favorite permalance - WTF is permalance. You either have a pt job ft job or its freelance. So many of these are set up so you get no bennies. They want people with all kinds of skills or experience and don't want to pay what you're worth. Don't even get me started on how they often make it obvious that they don't want someone like me - late 50's and years of office experience. They want younger workers they can bs into less money and more hours. Then there is the apparent automated resume scanning. If you put the right "power" words into a resume why you too can maybe land an interview with a living breathing human being and if you're lucky and properly kiss that person's ass you might just might earn the privelege of working.

[EC]

127. In one interview I had

the interviewer absolutely babbled on and on about her "young teenage employees" and how much she loved them, because they were so "bubbly and cute" - what she really meant is that they were willing to accept below minimum wage + commission without even 4 hours a week guaranteed. I complained to the corporation via on-line. She was fired. It was Sears by the way. I saw a post started about how good Sears was, ask their employees how they like working there on commission with no hours guaranteed in which to get those commissions - while having to be available to go into work on call - rather another job could not interfere, if they called you in and you were working another part-time job somewhere else and didn't go in to the Sears call, you were fired.

[RKP5637]

8. Exactly!!! I was never in a union, but I was ALWAYS grateful for what

the unions had done. I always felt people were so damn lame that couldn't see that corporations don't just lavish wages and benefits on everyone.

[NNN0LHI]

25. My late father never got out of grade school and understood this

He belonged to a union but he didn't want to have anything to do with it. He just was not confrontational. About the most easy going person I ever knew. But he explained it to me when I was young. Told me it was going to be the workers who were militant enough to go on strike and kept everyones wages up who were going to be paying his pension, Social Security and Medicare some day. And without them we were all screwed.

He was right.

Don

[raccoon]

108. There are plenty of people in my red-as-a-baboon's-arse state who would benefit from unions

--and the dumbasses are as anti-union as they would be anti-black-flies.

Go figure! I guess they think whenever employers give employees raises or benefits (a dying custom)
they're doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

[RKP5637]

124. You know, it's the weirdest psychological twist ever, people convinced that

screwing themselves over is good for them. I just never cease to be amazed at the ignorance in this country, it's just absolutely amazing.

I used to think ignorance was conditioned, but anymore I'm starting to think some are organically predisposed to be ignorant, in short, stupid. And worst of it all is, you can't even talk logic into those screwing themselves over.

The republicans have one over the democrats, they realized how easily so much of America can be duped with lie after lie, and got there first.

[Cal Carpenter]

23. Yes, now people seem proud that we are aiming for the least comon denominator

Thinking of a post around here explaining some jackass's theory that teachers are overpaid because other people with more difficult degrees make less than them.

Rather than lifting everyone up, the goal is to take everyone down. And that's not even touching on the whole unemployment issue.

How low can we go?

[Sherman A1]

85. Agreed & Well Said

:thumbsup:

[trotsky]

103. Which is precisely why they targeted unions...

not just politically but at the PR level. Ask your typical 99%er what they think of unions and almost universally you will get some negative opinions. "Corrupt, lazy," etc. A highly successfully right-wing PR campaign to erode public support for unions helped them enact the legal changes to weaken them severely.

[Initech]

2. Any time I see Koch BS about how certain professions are overpaid, it makes my blood boil.

It's all that AFP/Heritage foundation bullshit that they use to garnish our wages and keep us drowning in debt. There is one and only one profession that is grossly overpaid - and that is the Wall St. CEO. They do not deserve their 1700% pay raises - which they get by slashing our wages and benefits, and sending our jobs overseas. The worst thing we can do in this country is elect a Koch shill like Cain for president, we're truly fucked if that happens.

[Laluchacontinua]

3. k&r. that's backbreaking work, literally.

[MineralMan]

4. Being a nurses aide sucks. The only way I'd do it would be if

I was concurrently taking the one-year course to become an LPN. Then, while working as an LPN, I'd be working on becoming an RN. Every community college around here offers an LPN program. Affordable training that has direct results on pay. The RN thing is more expensive, but doable in stages while you're working as an LPN.

[Rozlee]

45. I kind of did it that way in the Army.

In the Reserves, I went from medic, then to Army LVN school, then to RN. At least in the military, they don't let you starve. You sure can't say that for the private sector, though. And nursing isn't the great profession it used to be. It's all about the bottom line. The ratio of patients to nurses is obscene. For public hospitals, it's historically been better, but with all the budget cuts since Rethugs came into power, my friends that are still working at Brooks and Audie Murphy tell me it's becoming a nightmare for them too.

[Skittles]

50. do I have to deal with body fluids ?

then no fucking thanks

[Bette Noir]

73. Yes. At least nowadays, you get to wear gloves.

When I was an NA, we changed diapers with bare hands.

[Skittles]

77. y'all are angels

you could not pay me enough to do that kind of work

[RKP5637]

5. I have friends that used to make over $100k/yr. Their job now goes for about $40k/yr to

people desperate to work, and others went to other countries for a fraction of the US labor. Yep, this affects all professions. I can't recall the source now, but someone was saying those feeling secure in their jobs in some professional positions had best realize they will eventually fall too, because there will be none under them propping them up for their services.

[Horse with no Name]

9. Yep. As far as I can tell

there is NO income security in professions these days.

They are using this as a tool to break down the unions (preaching to the choir, I know).

[raccoon]

109. THis bears repeating,

"someone was saying those feeling secure in their jobs in some professional positions had best realize they will eventually fall too, because there will be none under them propping them up for their services."

[RKP5637]

128. Yep, it's the domino theory all over the place. It's hard to keep standing when

all of those around you are falling down. I know people that think their job will go on forever, that it's them that makes the job, they can't seem to comprehend it's the collective society that keeps them propped up with their job, and when the collective society fails, they will go down too, but they just can't seem to get it ... I guess it's just denial at work, something like that ...

[CrispyQ]

156. It's the result of a culture that has championed the individual over community at all cost.

When you don't value your community, you don't see the value that it adds to your life.

Jared Bernstein puts it like this, the WITTs vs the YOYOs: We're In This Together vs You're On Your Own. For 30 years we've cultivated a YOYO society.

He says another cool thing: In a just society there is no limit to how high one can climb, but there is a limit to how far one can fall. I think that is so beautiful.

[RKP5637]

157. The last statement is beautiful! And the one about the 30 past years is sooo true! We have

this rugged individualist notion in this country which is so backward and destructive. It's the stuff failed civilizations are made of ...

[RegieRocker]

7. They started the class warfare a long long time ago.

[FreakinDJ]

12. +100

[xchrom]

10. Recommend

[seabeyond]

11. union grocery cashier pay in the 70's in calif. 14-18$ and hour. nt

[CrispyQ]

158. I put myself through college with a part-time union cashier job.

It took 10 years, but I lived on my own & graduated with zero debt, except for my car loan.

[seabeyond]

172. i ahd forgotten about this. but it really says something looking how wage has DECREASED.

i can think of so many jobs, that were the good jobs. working at the telephone company.

[FreakinDJ]

13. I guess this proves Milton Freedman's theory WRONG

I saw Milton Freedman in a documentary recently arguing leaving the Wealthy elite and Corporations alone (deregulating) allowing them to make more money allowed the working class to make more money as well

It was one of those spitting out milk moments

[Horse with no Name]

14. Isn't the point of capitalism to make money?

So, if that is the point, then paying workers less and less accomplishes that goal.

Paying them more detracts from that goal.

There is never shared profits...only shared sacrifices that result in more profits to the capitalists.

That is why so much effort is given to demonizing socialism.:(

[FreakinDJ]

17. Several forms of Capitalism

perhaps you should read up on it before tagging OWS "Socialist" as the RightWing Trolls would love to call them

[Horse with no Name]

I wasn't tagging anyone Socialist? And I didn't mention OWS?

I detest capitalism--it is predatory.

Was making the point that the capitalists demonize socialists because if people UNDERSTOOD the benefits of a socialist society vs. a capitalist society...real change would happen.

[FreakinDJ]

30. After the Manufacturing Capitalistic Society in the 1950s

No one in America is very interested in Socialism. They'll point to the corruption and failure of Russia's government which is now attempting to transfer over to State Capitalism because it has been so succesful in China.

[JoeyT]

34. Ah, it was the manufacturing capitalistic society that did it?

Weird. I thought it was over half a century of fearmongering and anti-communist propaganda that automatically made people cringe from the word "socialist".

I agree that no one in America is interested in Socialism. That's why we should encourage our politicians to gut Medicare and Social Security to help their reelections.

[Selatius]

83. The 1950s economic boom wouldn't have been possible except for 1) the New Deal and 2) labor unions.

The latter was crippled with the passage of the Taft-Hartley Act at the end of the 1940s. Despite that, in the 1950s about a third of the work force was a member of the labor unions, and employers in non-unionized areas were wise to pay union-level wages in order to convince workers not to unionize, that and the benefits they offered.

Despite all the regulatory reforms and strong labor unions, capitalists still succeeded in breaking down labor unions and enacting regimens of idiotic deregulation. With somewhere between 5% to 10% of workers in labor unions, employers can easily get away with paying 7.25/hr for something such as a nurse's aide. We're now regressing back to the point where things were like the 1930s, but if they could ever repeal Medicare, Medicaid, and the New Deal in its entirety, we'd really be back to the 1930s where people literally starved to death due to unemployment.

[Enthusiast]

91. Excellent post, Selatius! PLUS ONE!

It is a dirty shame you have to serve as teacher on DU.

[Horse with no Name]

105. Yeah. This post...+10000. n/t

[JoeyT]

117. It goes in cycles.

The excesses of the robber barons are what put public support behind unions and social programs the first time around. And it's looking like that will be the driving force behind them again. Then the capitalists will ramp the propaganda up again, and over the next few decades manage to get rid of most of the regulation and reform. The citizens rise up again, etc. The New Deal and middle class were more or less created to head off the rising support for socialism/communism, and support for socialism is growing again in spite of the propaganda.

FWIW I don't think we'll see the 1930s mass starvation due to unemployment. Communication and transportation are too accessible now. I think we're going to see food riots.

Edited to add: I agree with you completely by the way.

[Enthusiast]

89. PLUS ONE!

Was there ever a propaganda effort as great as the anti-communist fearmongering in 20th century America? I think not.

[Enthusiast]

90. Most of us would like to see

our government more closely resemble those of Western Europe -democratic socialism.

[bread_and_roses]

102. yeah, capitalism has been so great in China - poisoned food, water, air....

and repression! A near perfect capitalist society!

[blackspade]

74. I will proudly say that I am a socialist.

I also support OWS and unions.

Our current economic model is a historical aberration and totally unsustainable.
The sooner folks realize that the better.

The only way to fix the problem is to harness business to serve the public good.

[jeff47]

44. Only short-sighted capitalists work the way you describe

The ones not suffering cranial-rectal inversion understand that their employees are their customers. Low wages = your customers can't afford to buy.

[aggiesal]

54. Capitalism means

Privatizing the profits,
while socializing the loses.

As long as they're profitable, they keep all the profits
and never distribute to the workers below.

But the minute they're losing money,
pay-cuts & layoffs for the workers,
handouts from the government.

[Horse with no Name]

59. Amen to that

and that pisses me off to no end.

[raccoon]

110. Amen. That's how it works. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. He had a whole series on PBS in the 1980s (Reagan era, of course!) called

Free to Choose. It was several hours in which he got to preach his economic libertarianism with no rebuttal. Ah, those liberal media!

[FreakinDJ]

35. Change that to "Free to Collapse"

and then DON'T bail out the banks since they believe in laissez-faire government policy

[Thav]

112. Laissez-faire only applies to things that hinder them from making money

They're all about hands-on government policy when they're failing. They just want the government to get out of the way when they're pillaging.

[AllyCat]

56. We had to watch that slop in high school econ. Our teacher thought he was a genius

I knew nothing about economics or politics, but as a high school senior, the fact that this guy seemed so sure of what he was saying and was emphatic about it, made me not want to believe him. It was too simple and I didn't see it borne out when I looked at what my parents were making for wages.

Once I heard his name come up again later (probably here) I realized we were being completely brainwashed (well, it didn't work on at least two of us) by this guy who was supposed to be teaching us econ.

[RaleighNCDUer]

78. Friedman was not wrong.

He was lying.

This has been a decades long deliberate campaign with full knowledge of the consequenses. They spew one thing for public consumption, but notice where THEIR money is. It is NOT where their mouth is. They know that by the time their 'theory' is debunked, they will have fundamentally changed the financial system and destroyed the unions.

Then, look around, and you see a two-tiered society, with them on the top tier.

I fear it is too late - Citizen's United was the last nail in the coffin.

[Enthusiast]

93. PLUS ONE! Very good post! N/T

[MedicalAdmin]

106. I think uncle Milt was the most dangerous man of the last century.

We have not begun to see the human suffering that he will cause.

Scratch a libertarian ( right wing version) or republican hard enough and you will find him. Toss over the rock all too many dems, blue dogs and libertarians ( left wing versions) and you will find uncle Milt as well.

If I could get access to a time machine I would go back to kill his ass in the crib and then I'd go to find a certain Russian immigrant crappy writer atlas shrugging drug using asshole and her merry band of sycophants and drop a IED into their laps. After that it's off the bed to sleep like a baby. And to the idiot NSA/DHS idiot reading this and cramping their magic underwear it's called a fantasy because it is impossible. It's not like I'm posting manifestos about killing abortion doctors.

[pscot]

139. Scratch Obama and you find uncle Milton

lurking within.

[alp227]

147. You know what you called insisting on failed free market systems?

INSANITY

and the 99% get a golden SHOWER instead of prosperity trickling down on them, while the 1% gets golden PARACHUTES

[madrchsod]

15. i was making anywhere from 10-12 (without over time) in the early 70`s with...

cost of living every three months,paid dental and health care, could miss 10% of hours worked every three months and two weeks vacation.

i worked at a UNION steel drop forge shop that was hotter than hell in the summer and cold as the north pole in the winter.

i worked for a UNION STEEL mill that paid 8.50 to start then went up to 12-13 depending where i worked. good benefits and vacation plan.

the next forge shop i worked for in the mid 90`s was NON UNION and paid 10-12. had to pay for insurance,two weeks vacation,and that`s it. that place was even hotter and colder.

the first two employers are out of business because of south east asian labor costs. the third one has cut production in half.

UNIONS raised everyone's wages and trade agreements were friendly to AMERICANS

[Horse with no Name]

16. I had a friend that worked for Bethlehem Pennsylvania Shipyard in the early 80's

I don't know how much he made, but he made a nice living...but no doubt, he worked hard.

He lived like a rock star and looked like Bob Seger when he had long hair,lol.

We lost track, but I know the yard closed in 1989.

[Selatius]

84. If they would actually pass balanced trade deals instead of this bullshit free trade crap ...

we'd all be better off. As it stands, all the recent trade deals signed by Obama, Bush Jr., Clinton, and Reagan favor out-sourcing domestic manufacturing to Latin American or Asian dictatorship hellholes. Does anybody here honestly think workers in Colombia get a fair shake, especially since there are still right-wing death squads executing workers who dare to try to unionize? For that matter, the same goes to Panama. Or workers in China and Viet Nam who live under a one-party military dictatorship that only nominally calls itself a pro-worker "communist" party but just as easily crushes workers under tanks and riot police.

[Lochloosa]

18. After 3 years and 3 layoffs later I make 37% less now. For the same job.

[Arctic Dave]

19. I was talking to someone about this the other day.

I think we have all heard someone talk about when they were a young they worked at some job, raised kids, got by and saved money and young people today need to "suck it up" and work harder. What they refuse to see is that today wages are less then what they made 30 years ago for doing the same work.

I hear the same type of stories about how guys in the 70's went to college for 400.00 bucks a year. I laugh and tell them our daughters books cost more then that now.

[Horse with no Name]

21. The REAL disparity isn't just the wages

Even though you could probably fairly say that they were 30% or more lower than they were then--but the cost of living increase is probably at least tenfold what it was then and that is the greater disparity.

[Sal Minella]

I remember when kids could work a summer job and save enough

to go to college for two semesters.

iirc, the meme when I went to college was an astonished "It costs a thousand dollars a year!" Don't we just wish.

[oldhippydude]

99. yep

thats how i went to collage.. worked my way through with a summer job driving a hay truck.. i remember in 08 telling that to the "kids".. begging them to vote for change... (sigh) now the "kids" are in the street, and I'm sitting here typing away with an oxygen tube in my nose.. Go Kids!!!

[Sal Minella]

152. And meanwhile, the Right Wing Financial Gurus are still telling kids

that "getting a good education is the fist rung on the ladder of financial success" while they know dang well that college costs are way out of reach for most kids now. Really ticks me off.

We have so many people with top-notch educations unable to find halfway decent jobs now.

I am just so sick of the lies. "Job creators" my foot.

[Horse with no Name]

153. The REAL benefit of sending kids to college for 4 years

is that it keeps them out of the job market...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

167. I know of more than a few...

...who graduated college to $20/hour opportunities with $50,000 in loans.

Take out 20% for taxes and another $6,000/year for a car and insurance to get to that job. If you're aggressive and use 20% of what's left to pay off the loans, that will take over seven years. That leaves a net of $2200/month.

Will you get a raise every year and have a bit more? Sure, until you get laid-off, down-sized or canned for some other lame excuse. If you're not lucky net income won't be substantially different til the higher side of 30 years old. Oh, then there's the price of housing.

Why is it that over the last 30 years the cost of college has increased 1000%? Where is that money going? When I was in college 30 years ago professors were making $40,000/year. I don't think they're making $400,000/year now. Do you?

[CrispyQ]

161. "We have so many people with top-notch educations unable to find halfway decent jobs now."

In tech, we are told that we aren't skilled enough for American companies, so they need to outsource our jobs & import H1B's.

[live love laugh]

20. This is THE issue--not that wages are stagnant...wages have declined

not just with inflation.

In 1980 many of my friends made $50k. I thought that was a lot then, and it was, for a young starters. Today some of the same companies that paid $50k in 1980 pay less. And I hear employees who earn less wages being told that $40k or $45k is a "good salary." Yeah, maybe it's good in comparison to $7.25/hr. but wages are ridiculous.

[CrispyQ]

162. In his book, "Take this Job & Ship It", former senator Byron Dorgan (ND-D) stated that,

if minimum wage had kept up with CEO pay since the 1990's, it would be $23.08!

[Yo_Mama]

22. It's what immigration is doing to your wages.

Seriously, all jobs which immigrant labor can perform have dropped wages sharply. Roofers, drywallers and the like made double what they make now in real terms when I was young. Casual labor, landscaping - it's all the same.

We have too much immigration for our economy.

(And before the accusations start, I am married to a Central American naturalized immigrant, so no, it is not prejudice. And he says the same thing.)

[Horse with no Name]

24. I 100% disagree. n/t

[live love laugh]

26. Not true--the wage declines are across the board & not just in immigrant related occupations, nt

[jeff47]

47. 'fraid not.

As mentioned elsewhere, the wage decline is across-the-board. Including jobs requiring a college degree, which the immigrants you are accusing do not have.

Second, immigrants typically create 1.4 jobs. 1 is taken by the immigrant, and the 0.4 is taken by someone else. All those evil job-stealing roofers need to buy stuff too.

And as someone who grew up in construction, I assure you day laborers have been used as cheap labor for decades. It is not a new phenomenon.

[pampango]

48. No. Canada has 4 times higher rate of immigration. It is good for their economy. n/t

[Romulox]

132. Canada allows virtually ZERO unskilled immigrants each year. We allow a million or more. nt

[pampango]

142. Partly true. Canada's immigration is about 70/30 skilled/unskilled.

69% of Canada's immigrants in 2010 were economic (high skill/education), the rest were family members and refugees. 28.6% of their immigrants in 2010 had a high school education or less. US immigration is changing to one with more skilled than unskilled immigrants.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2010/permanent/01.asp#category
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2010/permanent/17.asp

Since Canada's immigration rate is 4 times that of the US and about 30% of them are unskilled, they have a lot of unskilled immigrants.

Report documents dramatic shift in immigrant workforce’s skill level

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/report-documents-dramatic-shift-in-immigrant-workforces-skill-level/2011/06/08/AGHqthMH_story.html

Highly skilled temporary and permanent immigrants in the United States now outnumber lower-skilled ones, marking a dramatic shift in the foreign-born workforce that could have profound political and economic implications in the national debate over immigration. This shift in America’s immigration population, based on census data, is summarized in a report released Thursday by the Brookings Institution. It found that 30 percent of the country’s working-age immigrants, regardless of legal status, have at least a bachelor’s degree, while 28 percent lack a high school diploma.

The trend reflects a fundamental change in the structure and demands of the U.S. economy, which in the past decades transformed from an economy driven by manufacturing to one driven by information and technology. The report also offers a new perspective on the national immigration discourse, which tends to fixate on low-skilled, and often illegal, workers.

[Romulox]

143. OK. So the percentage of unskilled immigrants in Canandian society is tiny compared to the US.

Xenophobes?

"Highly skilled temporary and permanent immigrants in the United States now outnumber lower-skilled ones,"

Not when illegal immigrants are factored in. Not even close. :hi: :eyes:

[pampango]

151. No. Unskilled immigrants are a higher percentage of Canadian society than in the US.

If Canada's immigration rate is 4 times higher than that of the US and more than a quarter of them are unskilled (the figure is actually 28.6%), then unskilled immigrants represent a larger part of Canadian society than in the US.


""Highly skilled temporary and permanent immigrants in the United States now outnumber lower-skilled ones,"

Not when illegal immigrants are factored in. Not even close."

According the study of census data that was the subject of the study discussed in the Post article, legal status was considered when determining the high skilled immigrants now outnumber low skilled ones.

"It found that 30 percent of the country’s working-age immigrants, regardless of legal status, have at least a bachelor’s degree, while 28 percent lack a high school diploma."

[Romulox]

155. Absolute nonsense, and you've provided no numbers to substantiate any of this.

"According the study of census data that was the subject of the study discussed in the Post article, legal status was considered when determining the high skilled immigrants now outnumber low skilled ones."

This claim doesn't substantiate the claim that skilled immigrants outnumber unskilled ones (even a little.) :hi:

[Rozlee]

51. I disagree.

My parents and siblings were illegal immigrants. True, my dad eventually learned a trade and got us off the fields, but every job description today has falling wages. Auto mechanics, store cashiers, bank tellers and office clerks. I was shocked when I found out that I'd made more as a cocktail waitress when I was in my 20s back in the early 80s than my neighbor is making today as a cable installer.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. Agreed. n/t

[Occulus]

116. Yet still untrue.

[lumberjack_jeff]

118. In 2006, Illegal immigration depressed wages $1.4 billion in Arizona alone.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2008/01/07/daily17.html

You can't have it both ways. Pick only one: "we depend on illegal workers for cheap produce", OR "Illegal immigration isn't responsible for depressing wages"

[Occulus]

125. Third choice: Illegal immigration isn't SOLELY responsible for decades of depressed wages.

It's not even a significant factor and, if you'll read the rest of this thread, the wages that are being depressed are across the board, in a broad spectrum of job types.

Those who are being honest on this thread realize both that that is true and that it has been going on for decades.

It isn't just illegal immigration. Not by a long shot.

[RaleighNCDUer]

144. That claim only works if we HAVE cheap produce.

The fact is, the consumer sees very little of the benefit of the 'cheap labor' - it goes almost exclusively to the agri-business corporations. If every strawberry picker got a dollar an hour raise, we wouldn't see the price of strawberries go up a nickel, unless the corporations raised the price to protect their profit margin. If the corporation was to accept a 1% (pulling the number out of my ass) reduction in their profit margin, they could pay that extra dollar an hour.

The fact is, that should read "we depend on immigrant labor for our produce". Look at what happened in Georgia - with unemployment rampant, and the 'illegals' kicked out, the produce rotted in the fields. They were advertising for workers at MUCH higher wages than the 'illegals' had been getting, but were not getting the workers. If they NEEDED to low wages to get the produce, how could they afford to hike the wages to get American workers?

You've bought the lie.

[Bette Noir]

75. You have cause and effect confused.

Wages didn't go down because immigrants came in, saying, "I'll do the work for half the money." No, the employers cut the wages down to where Americans didn't want to do the work any more, and actively recruited immigrants.

[Lorien]

126. Oh bullshit. America has ALWAYS had immigrants, THEY BUILT THE ECONOMY!

Immigrants buy products, rent or buy homes, and spend money on services-and NO, the "government" DOES NOT foot the bill for them! Your friends in the GOP hire them as unskilled labor for less than minimum wage so that YOU can buy cheap produce at Walmart. But not all immigrants are "unskilled"-not by a long shot. You want to clean toilets or pick lettuce for $2 an hour? Have at it son! My doctor is an immigrant from Central America and she's the best physician I've yet had. She didn't "take" away a job from some white guy whose family has lived here 80 years longer; our town has too few doctors as it is. Oh, and by the way; my doc works for homeland security and she says that immigration is at it's lowest point here since the Great Depression.

The only people here who have a right to complain about "immigrants" are Native Americans. If you want to see native people who feel completely overwhelmed by immigration today try taking a trip through Europe.

[Romulox]

131. We have OSHA, FSLA, Child Labor laws in the country for a REASON. It's not "progressive"

to destroy those things with cheap, unregulated labor.

[RaleighNCDUer]

140. I disagree. It is not immigrant labor that is the problem - it is NON-UNIONIZED

immigrant labor that is the problem.

If the unions could accept the idea that the immigrants are here and not going away, they could get on with getting them organized and keep them from undercutting wages. Can you imagine what that would do for the unions, if they suddenly could enroll 7 million new members?

Unions should be fighting for legal status of all undocumented workers. That's the ONLY way they can protect their own members.

[nenagh]

27. I went back to work in a Pharmacy after illness and part retirement..

Found that the pharmacy tech. who was very experienced and excellent at her job made a very low hourly wage: because the store is new and the owners were just getting by for quite a time.

We are in a small town in Ontario... and there aren't any new job openings for her.

When I work at the Pharmacy, I stuff 40 - 50 dollars into her pocket and always tell her how much I appreciate how she has helped me upgrading my computer skills and returning to work.

As an older woman, it is easier for me to stuff something into her pocket, admittedly :)

I just post this, because it may help someone else to find a way to do something similar.

[Tumbulu]

67. years ago I worked as a lab supervisor

the company always gave me the maximum raises, but the minimum to my lab techs despite their excellent reviews and results. I got so mad that I just took the raises given to me and divided them up by 6 (the number of techs) and gave them that cash every month when I was paid.

I loved these guys and they loved me and it was the right thing to do. But I have never heard of anyone else doing this- and I wonder why not? I would not have looked so good to management if it were not for them.

So, your post made me happy. Thanks for doing the right thing.

[Enthusiast]

95. Tumbulu, you and nenagh have restored my faith in humanity.

Well, not all humanity but, you know.

[Enthusiast]

94. Unbelievable.

I stand in awe. Thank you for contributing to the discussion.

[K8-EEE]

28. Gas was $1.19 a gallon -- the cost of everything has doubled & tripled while wages decline

THAT is really what is killing the middle class....the cost of NECESSITIES - housing, food, fuel, health care + the decline of wages and benefits.

[Horse with no Name]

29. Just an aside

Years ago, I remember that when you complained about the price of gas, people would remind you that milk was so much higher per gallon....Of course, this was during the Reagan years when he was busy busting down the remaining truly family farms...

Nowadays...the cost of milk and gas? It's almost the same, at least in my area.:(

FWIW and what that old metaphor was intended to mean.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. Some of my translation clients (large agencies) tried to get me to work

for less than I worked for in 1995.

I just refused. :-)

They had so much Japanese-English material to translate that they eventually gave in, but every once in a while, one of their coordinators slyly tries to get me to work for less or to fix a translation done on the cheap by some incompetent translator.

I just refuse. :-)

[SheilaT]

36. I have a friend who lives in the Pittsburgh PA

area. He works for some branch of the state government (although his paycheck comes from a contractor) doing job placement. If I understand him correctly, all companies in PA are now required to post all jobs with the State agency as well as anywhere else they care to post it.

Anyway, a while back some local (Pittsburgh) company was looking for someone to do French to English translation, which my friend can do. But they were offering $10/hour. Friend tried to explain to them that translation jobs typically went for at least double that, but they were convinced they'd get someone. Eventually, they took down the job posting, and as far as my friend knows, never did get anyone to do the work.

That's just one small example to add to the others already mentioned in this thread.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. $10 an hour is NOTHING

About 15 years ago, I turned down (due to scheduling conflicts) an onsite Japanese document review job that paid $50 an hour plus lodging.

Americans are funny about languages. They think learning languages must be impossibly difficult, so impossibly difficult that only the most brilliant people can handle it, and yet, they think that anybody can translate and shouldn't charge more than for typing.

But it's a lot more than typing.

You have to know the source language well because you're usually paid by the word, and using the dictionary too much slows you down and reduces your pay. (You're ready if you can read a weekly news magazine without a dictionary.) But you also have to have field-specific knowledge and good writing ability in English.

[Capitalocracy]

46. How much do you usually charge?

And how much did they want you to work for?

Just to compare notes, you know. ;)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. What if the ATA comes after me?

:-)

But the real answer is that it depends on the subject matter, the deadlines, and a bunch of other stuff.

[elehhhhna]

33. Me & hubs make what we made n 1992.

and health ins. premiums are up 400% since then.

gas - triple, utilites, groceries - double, etc.

[sarcasmo]

37. Kick, not just nursing, this has happened to many occupations.

[femrap]

39. Taking care of

ailing people is no longer important in this society. Geez, I'd like to 'take care' of an ailing 1%er and see how he likes it.

I am so fucking angry.

[Enthusiast]

96. "I am so fucking angry." Me too!

[femrap]

145. I might feel a bit better

tomorrow if No on Issue 2 passes.

[Enthusiast]

154. That will help.

If No doesn't win we can be sure there has been subterfuge.

[femrap]

163. I'm going to go

knock on some doors tomorrow afternoon...with the polls showing a nice Win on No on 2, I just want to make sure every ACTUALLY gets out and votes!

[truedelphi]

40. It was a nurse's aide who did CPR on Congress woman Giffords and

Kept her alive until help arrived. And that is part and parcel of what nursing assistants do.

Very sad to hear about the decrease in salary. The other part of the equation, is that here in Claifornia, they eliminated the Licensed Vocational Nurses from most hospital jobs, and used "better trained" nursing assistants instead.

So now when a nursing assistant wants to improve therir life, they have to sign on for the three to four years at a college or university, rather than one year for being an LVN.

And no one really believes that the nursing assitants are better trained than they were previously. In fact, for many people who end up as patients at major hospitals, the help is newly arrived in the USA. But what better way for a hospital to ensure that no one on staff will mind too much if they aren't paid their overtime or their benefits. They want to remain in this country, right?

[bengalherder]

41. Happened in cooking/ restaurants too.

People with my experience (25 years or so) made $15-$20 an hour back then. Its one of the reasons I got into the field.

The going rate these days seems to be around $10-$12, or less.

I'm on the upper end of that but only because I got lucky and a public sector union job found me.



A few years ago I was reading help wanted ads and it blew me away how many employers were insisting on degrees, but were only offering about $12 for it.

Worst thing is the quicksand feeling, knowing that what my wages will really buy nowadays is nearly back to the equivalent of when I was making $6.50 back in '86

[progressoid]

42. Yup. Sounds like me.

Not a nurses aide but the drop in salary is the same.

:grr:

[Bonobo]

43. Similar story here.

In 1994, as a translator, I got .30 cents/word.

Now, I am not able to get .20/word even.

And how much has the cost of living, insurance, etc. gone up since then?

[Fire Walk With Me]

49. Instead of a $1Million statue to Reagan, I say pay the nurses!

[applegrove]

52. The rich need all the little people in the middle class to sufer wage reductions. That way

inflation will be fought and the stock market won't have to face a slowing down due to tight money policy fighting inflation. That is how inflation used to be fought....by everyone in the economy. Now it is just the middle class and the poor who are fighting it with reduced wages.

[unkachuck]

53. way back in the '70s....

....I was making $15.00/hr setting up headers and boltmakers in a Union shop with a 100% medical/dental coverage, 5 weeks paid vacation, all holidays paid, time and a half for anything over 8 in a day, 30 years and out pension, all under an excellent Union contract with extensive works rules and protections....

....today is what we have after 40 years of corporate Dem and corporate Republican rule....inferior jobs, or no jobs, depression, homelessness, foreclosures, poverty, a dollar that's worth a fraction of what it was back then....

....40 years of corporate rule has yielded nothing but devastation for the hard-working blue-collar worker and their families....

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. I made 7.50 flipping burgers at the college

Mininmum is near that point.

[REP]

58. In 1989, I made $18.25 an hour ... now that job now longer exists

Dedicated typographer (not a description of me, but could be). And that wasn't unusually high pay for what I did.

[lynne]

60. Simple supply and demand. Too many workers and too few jobs -

- employers know that people are so needing jobs now that they can be bought for less than before. And, sadly, they're right.

This won't be resolved until the economy is straightened out.

[totodeinhere]

61. I don't mean this as an anti immigrant comment. But do immigrants who are willing to work for less

money have anything to do with the decline in wages we are talking about? That is the line that we hear sometimes. I have also heard that immigrants contribute more to society than they take away. I'm just wondering.

[Enthusiast]

97. "That is the line that we hear sometimes."

If you listen to right wing information sources it isn't 'sometimes', it's continually. They need scapegoats to take the focus off their policies.

[totodeinhere]

121. Did you read the link in the other reply to my question?

It cites a study that was done at Harvard that documents that immigrants have contributed to wage suppression in Arizona. I don't necessarily agree that this is a left vs right issue. Keeping wages high is a progressive value, and if immigrants are suppressing wages then it needs to be addressed.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2008/01/07/daily17.html

[lumberjack_jeff]

119. Yes.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2008/01/07/daily17.html

[Lorien]

135. No. Outsourcing and the increase in hiring "salaried" workers that work for

one fixed salary has driven down wages. More people = more demand. However, when you offshore lower skilled jobs, then fire half of your skilled labor and tell the remaining salaried workers that they must work 16 hour days and/ or weekends to keep their jobs THAT drives up unemployment which in turn drives down wages. Exactly what the 1% WANTS.

[RaleighNCDUer]

148. Most immigrants do not work for 'less'.

They work for what is offered them, and that amount is vastly more than they made back home (not including the many instances of virtual slave-labor often forced upon them, particularly in agriculture).

It's a matter of perspective.

[lumberjack_jeff]

62. My peak income was 1989.

Would not have predicted what happened.

[xloadiex]

63. I started at UPS

in 1990 @8.00 an hour. Twenty one years later starting pay has only gone up 50 cents to 8.50 an hour. That's 8.50 for a job where you work your ass off. We use to go up 1.00 after 40 days. Now you go up 1.00 after 90 days. You do get a lot of other perks such as paid hospitalization for a part time job but to only raise the starting pay 50 cents in 21 years is ridiculous. The union has made a lot of concessions.

I had to leave after 12 years because my back, knees, and elbows just gave out from the gueling work.

[GoCubsGo]

65. That's how it is with my former employer, too.

I used to work for a major Southern university as a research technician. Right out of grad school in 1987, I made just over $20K. Twenty five years later, that position hires in at around $24K. That's those good, ol' "right to work" states for you.

[Horse with no Name]

71. My brother was a union steward hen he worked for UPS

I looked at your training manuals...they expect a lot.

The one that got me was something like "you must trace your steps in and follow the same route out"....

He blew out his knees too.

[Harmony Blue]

66. It isn't hyperbole

but sadly true.

[Orrex]

68. While unemployed, I interviewed for an entry-level position at a glassware plant near PIttsburgh

Starting wage for night shift was $9.25/hour.

I mentioned it to a friend later that afternoon. Turns out he'd worked that same job at that same plant in the mid 70s. His wage was $9.25/hour.

[MrMickeysMom]

69. The way health care reimbursement has affected me...

... is to ELIMINATE the numbers and give many of what should be procedures carried out under my license and create these positions that fall close to minimum wage.

Oh, don't worry.... the lawyers for many of these corporation/health care systems seldom loose a case of negligence or wrongful practice when the family of whoever is hurt or killed comes complaining.

They are capped if they DO win... They probably can write off many of the losses... Plus, they don't have to pay a respiratory therapist to have cared the right way it in the first place!

Yesssir... the best health care money can buy for the provider of health care. The rest of you bums form a line over there in the "pool" and maybe we will provide you a lower pay with no benefits... that's the message I've been getting for years now.

Back in the day, the equivalent pay would have me making 10 more dollars an hour than I presently make.

[awoke_in_2003]

72. when I got into my field...

13 years ago, I was paid $19 an hour, and thought I was shitting in high cotton. Now I am making $32 an hour, and have less money than I did then (and my debts haven't increased)

[a2liberal]

76. K&R (n/t)

[aaaaaa5a]

79. kick! Outstanding thread. NT

[aaaaaa5a]

80. Here are some numbers as to how bad things are

I went to a wage inflation calculator to help me make the following calculations

In 1990, a job that paid$ ____________ per year would have to pay $ ____________ per year in 2011 just to be EQUAL in purchasing power.

18,000 to 31,000

25,000 to 43,000

50,000 to 87,0000

75,000 to 130,000

How many jobs/wages in this country do you think have risen appropriately with inflation?




Amazingly even making the “benchmark” 6-figure salary today doesn’t really add up.

A person making $100,000 dollars per year is equal to a person who earned

$76,000 in 2000

$58,000 in 1990

$36,000 in 1980

Think about that.

Even a person who earns $100,000 dollars per year is only equal in living standards to a person who earned $58,000 dollars per year in 1990 and $36,000 per year in 1980.

For some reason I can recall more people earning $58,000 dollars annually in 1990 than I can people earning 100 grand today. And nobody in 1990 considered a family or individual earning $58,000 thousand dollars per year rich in the same manner we view $100,000-dollar salaries today.


In 1980, $36,000 per year was factory work. Could you imagine factor work paying $100,000 thousand dollars per year today?




Our wage standards and expectations have been drastically lowered over the last 30-40 years.


Here is the department of labor wage inflation calculator.

http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

[avaistheone1]

81. Shocking.

K&R

[aaaaaa5a]

82. I can remember VIVIDLY....

a conversation I was having with my friend during my senior year in high school. It was the early 1990s and we were discussing college. I LITERALLY REMEMBER saying that we needed to go to College because we didn't want to spend the rest of our lives working at McDonald's for 20,000 a year.

Today... without exaggeration, that literally is what College graduates are doing.

[AzDar]

160. Good. God.

:wow:

[DFW]

86. Do I EVER appreciate nurses and their aides!!

Two and a half months ago, I was lying in a Dallas hospital with my very first heart attack.
I was taken care of as if I was in the presidential suite at the Ritz-Carlton--not by the
overworked and stressed-out cardiologists, but by the equally stressed-out and overworked
nursing staff. If the hospital had added a 2% surcharge to my bill (some $28000), and said
it was for the nursing staff, I would have paid it gladly.

(It didn't hurt that half of them were Filipino, and smiled a smile a foot wide when I greeted them in Tagalog)

[Enthusiast]

87. K&R!

If the GOP and their corporate masters have their way $7.25 will seem like a fortune.

[Divernan]

88. US Postal Service: "temporary" - $11 hour, 12 hour shifts, no bennies.

The USPS is hiring for what they term "casual" employment, i.e., temporary over the holidays. Requirement (for warehouse work, including lifting up to 70 pounds) is for 12 hour days, 6 or 7 days per week. Shifts are usually overnight - like 4 p.m. to 4 a.m.

Standing, carrying, lifting, pushing for 12 hours at a stretch, every day? Brutal.

[Occulus]

120. I have done that exact job for almost 15 years.

1) USPS is under a hiring freeze. If you know of a postal location hiring temps in the midst of the hiring freeze, excessing of employees (basically, being laid off), and facility consolidation that is going on right now, raise holy hell about it. We're losing our jobs right now, all across the country. Postal management should not be hiring temps at any location.

2) Yes, it's physically brutal. Lots and lots of heavy lifting, pushing, and pulling, repeatedly. For example- those Bed, Bath, & Beyond ads, or any other thick, long card stock ad mailing, comes in a tray of 500 or so, on pallets of thirty or more trays. These each weigh in at over fifty pounds.

[Divernan]

92. New law grads: $15/hr-no benefits; or working for FREE to get experience

Although retired, I take Continuing Legal Ed classes (required to keep my state license active) at my alma mater so talk to professors/administrators there. From them, and other lawyers in the classes, I hear:

(1) the only jobs many lawyers can find are as "contract" workers, i.e, must be licensed and work for $15 an hour with no benefits. The fact that they must be licensed, as opposed to simply degreed, tells me their work is being billed out by their blood-sucking employers for at least $150 per hour.

(2) new grads from some pretty good law schools are working pro bono, i.e, for free, for various non-profit groups simply to keep their resumes respectable and gain some experience. What's not in the resumes is that they're working nights as waitstaff, security guards, etc., to have any income at all.

Neither of these options pay enough for them to handle their student loans of course.

[Obamanaut]

98. In 1989 had not Reagan been president for awhile, and then came Bush as his

replacement?

[cyrakitty]

100. This is amazing to me.

This is amazing to me.

Also, I saw an ad for McDonald's. They are advertising for cashiers at 7.25/hr. Then in a second ad they were advertising for managers at 8.25/hr - One dollar more for management!! Outrageous!

And with your information an NA could get a job at McDonald's and not have to deal with biohazard material - except the food (hehehehe)


:wtf:

[fasttense]

101. And who took the other half of the nurses aide's pay?

Someone had to take it. It didn't just disappear. The money was there to pay decent salaries back in 1989. Where did that money go in 2011?

It went to the idle rich. It went to the CEO. It went to the foreign investor and got funneled to some foreign country.

A redistribution of wealth from the working class to the idle rich has been going on since Ronnie Raygun talked about shooting lasers from satellites. The is the so called "free" trade that tools of the idle rich spouted as an economic religion.

Free trade for the idle rich slave trade for the working class. Austerity for the working class, luxury and welfare for the idle rich. This is what our American society is today.

[Ikonoklast]

104. Fed Chairman Paul Volcker said it many years ago.

Americans will just have to accept a lower standard of living.

He caught hell for that, he told the truth as we were being robbed blind by the 1%.

[raccoon]

111. I'd make one change to what he said...

"99% of all Americans will just have to accept a lower standard of living."

[HughBeaumont]

134. +1000.

There are Americans & there are their Overlords. Shared Sacrifice = I take your share, YOU make the sacrifice.

[closeupready]

146. Unless they decide to demand what they are worth. That's the flip side

nobody ever seems to see.

[DesertFlower]

107. in '88 i was making $18 an hour as a legal

secretary. my friend is a legal secretary and is making $22 an hour now. that's in new york city. still pretty good compared to what people are making in other parts of the country.

[aaaaaa5a]

115. Good post. Here is what that wage looks like today

In 1988 making $18 dollars per hour equated to about $37,000 dollars per year.

In 2011 wages, to have the same purchasing power as it did in 1988, this job should pay about $71,000 per year!


On the flip side a legal secretary in 2011 earning $22 dollars per hour equals to about $46,000 dollars annually.
An equivalent salary in 1988 is $24,000 dollars per year or about $11.50 PER HOUR!



In real numbers if you took that job back in 1988 based on today's wages, you would have earned $11.50 per hour,not $18.



This topic is an incredibly underreported story.


I was watching Morning Joe about 2 weeks ago where Joe Scarborough was touting right to work states. He was highlighting the success of the BMW plant in South Carolina. But then one of the guest had to remind him that wages at the plant started at just $14 dollars per hour. With advanced training and experience it was just $17 dollars per hour! The people working at this plant barely make a middle class wage, even by South Carolina afford-ability standards. Still they vote Republican in droves! What is happening to us?????

[Blue_In_AK]

165. I'm another former legal secretary.

I topped out at about $50,000 a year when my firm downsized and I left the biz in 2000. They wanted me to stay, but I was ready to go after 25 years. Besides, they laid off all my friends, and the attorneys I liked were moving on to other things. I haven't priced our market in a while. You've got me curious now.

I did legal transcriptions at home for another eight or nine years after that. We had a contract with the state, and they never once raised our page rate in all that time, even though we knew the court employees were getting raises. It's why I quit altogether when I got old enough for social security.

[mpgalloway]

114. Musician club Wages

In 1971 I made $80.00 a night playing music for 4 hours.
In 2011 after almost 40 years I make $80.00 a night.

The musicians union has ceased to exist and here in Arizona
(a right to work state) most of the waiters and bartenders
make $2.15 an hour plus tips.

Pathetic....

http://youtu.be/Ocz0IbGJ3So

[Flatulo]

122. Hah, same story here...

In 2008, I made $65/hr.

In 2009, I made $45/hr.

In 2010, I made $40/hr

In 2011, I made $0/hr.

Good thing I saved like crazy when I was making the big bux. I'll be living on savings for the rest of my life.

I also bought a tiny, shitty house that is paid for and I'm 100% debt free.

[CrispyQ]

166. "...tiny, shitty house that is paid for ..."

Us too. ~lol.

We watched everyone we know ramp up their life styles on their great wages. Our wages were not so great, but still better than what we had known, so we hunkered down & saved like fiends until we had enough to pay off our house. Let me tell you, are we ever glad we did not buy that brand new house, that was so pretty with all it's shiny new interior but would have us $350K in debt right now.

[Flatulo]

169. Oh yeah, most of my peers bought $350K+ McMansions. I just could

never see the value in a 5,000 sq ft home with an $5K property tax bill and ridiculous heating costs. Not to mention the complete and utter waste of raw materials and resources. And most of these palaces in these parts are inhabitated by 3-4 people, tops.

And here's the rub for so many people - all their wealth, past present and future, are tied up in their homes. How did that work out for them?

Glad to see there are still a few kindred spirits out there.

[Lorien]

123. Already came to mine. In 1990 I worked as a "clean up artist" (assistant animator)

for a major animation studio for 46k a year. Now that same studio farms out it's clean up (final line work -not rough animation) to animation artists for $10 per drawing. Here's the problem with that; if you are animating a very simple character you might do 4-5 drawings an hour. If you are drawing a human, an alligator, a horse...anything complex, realistic or with significant costuming you will probably only draw one every 2-3 hours, meaning that you'll make far less than minimum wage. So naturally I'm out of that line of work, and now I'm working as an adjunct professor for a university while taking on at least two freelance projects at a time (15 hour days, 7 days a week), and I'm still not making 46k a year. :(

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

129. I'm not sure...

...where you live. Maybe it's time to move.

CNAs average $30K/yr where I live. This is a job that has become saturated with job seekers due to unemployment, short training period, government regulation and profit minded vo/tech schools selling these programs and charging thousands for what used to be done via on the job training.

It's a sad thing.

[Mimosa]

130. K&R best OP and conversation in months

We know what the problems are.

Only people like Alan Grayson actually want to help us.

America is sinking.

[Romulox]

133. "Should I buy a Prius?" nt

[HughBeaumont]

136. I make, after 10 years of working and adjusted for inflation . . .

. . . approximately $300 DOLLARS more per year than in 2001.

In 10 years, I've made $300 DOLLARS WORTH of progress in salary. Meanwhile, where has the cost of living gone? Dollars to donuts its risen far more than that whopping 25 extra dollars a month can tackle.

In America, that's called lucky.

It should be called a goddamned disgrace.

[Johnny2X2X]

137. Sad

The other side will call you a socialist if you think this is wrong.

[L. Coyote]

138. One word: Jobs

http://themarketingheadhunter.typepad.com/.a/6a00e553a5d715883401348882113f970c-500wi

[closeupready]

141. Oh, yeah. I see this, too. Temp jobs that paid $25/hr in 1999 in New York now pay $19/hr.

Some progress.

[OwnedByFerrets]

149. Been screaming it for quite some time.

[IADEMO2004]

150. What state?

[Enrique]

159. that's what they want to do to teachers

turn schools into profit centers like hospitals have become.

[StarsInHerHair]

164. Kickty

[CrispyQ]

168. Instead of raising wages, they gave out easy, accessible credit.

We upgraded our lifestyles on credit instead of wages, sure that there would always be another bubble to hitch onto.

Everyone should watch "Inside Job." You will be outraged.

[Horse with no Name]

170. Perfect point.

You hit the nail on the head.

As long as people had access to what they wanted, the wages didn't matter.

Now with the credit clamped down on, people are realizing that they aren't doing nearly as well as they thought they were.

[CrispyQ]

173. The movie is fantastic.

There are great explanations of the terms used on 'news' shows & what really happened. The last segment shows how the university econ departments are complicit, too. Our nation's institutions are corrupt to the core. All for profit.

We don't have a democracy.
We have an auction.

I saw that bumper sticker several years ago & it's more relevant today than ever. Even speech is for sale.

[EFerrari]

171. Or Capitalism Hits the Fan, which makes this point exactly

and so clearly, it will curl your hair. They run it on LINK and on Free Speech TV and, I believe it's up at YouTube in some form.