I have a question. Libs say it's corporations and the 1% hurting this country...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

Libertarians and Repukes say it's government that's responsible for everything, the mess, cleaning it up, etc.

I have an acquaintance who says that the government is responsible for everything, including what the corporations, banks, and 1% have been allowed to do to us.

How can I make this person realize that he's talking bs?

I've already discussed with him that no human can run for office in this country without HUGE money, so everyone is beholden to corporations, banks and the 1%. I also said that since the thieves are the corporations, the banks and the 1%, and govt. is beholden to them for the $$$$ to run for office, any chance for change rests upon us, THE PEOPLE, the 99% so to speak.

What other things can I say?

Anyone?

[DJ13]

1. If its government, who's paying for the pols responsible to win reelection?

That circular argument takes it right back to the fault of the 1%, doesnt it?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. True. It is a circular argument. Great point. nt

[MedleyMisty]

2. You can ask him to read this

http://anoncentral.tumblr.com/post/12409353866/for-the-99-the-new-common-sense-must-distribute

It lays out the case for what's wrong and what can be done to fix it quite nicely, and how the government colludes with the corporations.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

7. I plan to, tonite. Thanks. This, and lessons on the banking corruption.

After those, I'll even be going to work wearing a Guy Fawkes mask LOL!

[Lint Head]

3. It's the takeover of the government by the greedy right wing the rich elitists that is the problem.

They are protecting there money and lifestyle.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

8. That's exactly what it is. Which brings to mind that there are no checks and balances at all

This whole idea that there were checks and balances 'built in' to our American govt was another myth.

[FarCenter]

5. Its the hedge funds, private equity funds, speculators, real estate pools, etc. that matter

Banks and corporations are mostly front men and errand boys for the actually rich and powerful.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

9. The front men

[Vincardog]

6. Libertarians and Repuks have only a negative message. Ask your "friend" to state in positive terms

any aspect of their beliefs. if they are slurping the RW kool aid from any of the usual sources they will only be able to state such BS as "States Rights" Limited Government or such shit as laws based on biblical law.
Point out how each of these statements is actually a negative.
Repeat the process until they pitch a snit and run away or scream that you just don't understand and flee the conversation.
The truth is the person most likely has no intention of having anything approaching a real discussion and it is a waste of breath ever trying to reason with them

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. Oh, he's slurping the Kool-Aid for sure. And he's full of fallacious 'reasoning.'

He is SCARED. He's terrified. A sure sign that he's a pathological Repuke.

[Vincardog]

11. Why are you willing to waste your time on him?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

12. Because I am flummoxed that people can have brains as dense as bricks?

Because I am shocked that people can vote against their own self-interests, and against those of their own flesh and blood?

Because I'm amazed that people can be so f stupid?

Because having the heart of a serf is nothing to be proud of, and yet this man is proud to think like a serf or slave?

[Vincardog]

13. The thing is: Ignorance can be cured but Stupid is forever. Ask him up front which he is.

There is no use in arguing with the stupid

[Sarah Ibarruri]

15. True, true. I'm getting to that point, believe me. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

14. wait.. government and corporations... there's a difference?

I do find it interesting that the so-called 'libertarians' and conservatives don't seem all that upset about 'socialism' when it goes to billion dollar joint strike fighters and the like.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

Oh of course not. Libertarians and Repukes think the 1% have the right to steal. nt

[ThomThom]

16. You can start out by agreeing with him...... that our government

has been bought and paid for by big money. Tell him how our government has allowed big banks and corporations to rewrite the rules that allowed them to screw us. Then tell him how the rich have bought off most of the politicians and do not uphold the Constitution. If you make it seem like you are agreeing with him and then steer the conversation to the facts slowly, he might grasp the ideas and wake up but probably not. I like to start by using their own position and build on it. He says government is responsible then use it. Also backing the Constitution is also something they can't be against.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

19. I tried that technique, but will give it another shot, and see if it works better calmer

I get exasperated.

I will say this, last time I approached the topic that way, he said that I shouldn't attack corporations, since corporations are the ONLY reason people in the U.S. live so well.

[Brigid]

39. "Live so well?"

Does he really believe that? Ask him why 50 million of us are without health insurance. Ask him why this country is one of a very few in the Western world without laws concerning mandatory vacation time. Ask him why our infrastructure is literally crumbling around us. Ask him why we rank so low internationally in areas like infant mortality and educational achievment. Ask him why wages have been stagnant for the past 30 years. And these are just for starters. God, this kind of willful ignorance is frustrating! :banghead:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

42. He says it will all magically correct itself.

And that's just another of the capitalistic-financial propaganda myths people are taught when they get their MBAs. Myths which benefit the 1%.

[sabrina 1]

17. Maybe show him the donations Politicians receive

from Corporations, and ask him to do a study of a few of them. How, eg, do they vote on certain legislation after taking money from these Corporations.

Actually that is probably something that OWS should assign a group to do. To match the votes on legislation that affect certain businesses, like Big Pharma eg, to the donations they received from those organizations.

Corps have bought our government. Ask him why does it cost one billion dollars now for the Presidency? And does he think that anyone taking that much money won't be influenced by those who gave it to them?

Also, ask him why each member of Congress is constantly being lobbied, by Big Business, but never by lobbyists for the people? The people have no lobbyists.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

21. Ah yes.

"Also, ask him why each member of Congress is constantly being lobbied, by Big Business, but never by lobbyists for the people? The people have no lobbyists."

That's something I can mention to him...

[B Calm]

18. Ask your acquaintance if he believes in regulations.

[SomethingFishy]

20. My question for them is always the same..

Where were you when Bush was President?

It's not Government they don't like it's anyone who disagrees with their scorched earth ideals. As well evidenced by the fact that not one of these assholes was out speaking out against the Government when Bush was in office.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. He VOTED for Bush! He was proud of him. Ahem.

Does that tell you something about him?

[HellerHighwater]

35. Yep

It tells me you may be spinning your wheels.

But if you can get him to admit to previously embracing the kind of common-sensy folk wisdom of "following the money" and/or "where there's smoke there's fire", some time in his life before, you might be able to hook him.

By the way, the best way into someone's mind is through the back door of questions; it's hard to protect from. Viz:

"You know, my dad always hit me with aphorisms when I was a kid. You know, like, "where there's smoke there's fire" and stuff like that. Did your dad do the same thing?"

"What about "follow the money", did you ever hear that?"

"Well, I want you to think about something. Will you do that for me for a second?"

"Good, so, following the money, who directly benefits if a bunch of folks start believing that environmental regulations are excessive or cost jobs?"

"Right. And again, following the money, if we accept that almost 1/2 the country don't pay federal taxes, who benefits from spreading the word that taxes are too high-even if they haven't been this low since Eisenhower was President?"

"Do you see where I'm going here? Like, who stood to benefit from spreading the idea that smoking was actually healthy when cancer reports first started coming out? What companies saved a pile of cash at first by getting millions of conservatives to believe that installing seatbelts were unnecessary and going to be the end of their industry?"

Etc. If he has a single intellectually honest bone in his body, he'll see a pattern. He won't say he does, but...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. You're right. Those are really good approaches to a conversation with him.

Keeping those techniques in mind, I will approach the topic again and see where it goes.

I do have a feeling that he admires corporations, all corporate entities, and his idolization of them prevents him from viewing them logically. He is convinced that unregulated corporations are the only way a country can progress and be free. Since he's one of those 'Commies are evil' thinkers, he sees it as pretty much as corporations vs. 'Commies.'

I've seen him go silent whenever I make a point he cannot refute, and it bothers him greatly, and he feels his beloved corporations are being attacked.

It's a bit like defending one's family. One's family may not be perfect, but by golly, one defends them when they're attacked. He's that way about corporations.

[lunatica]

23. Some people are unable to see the dots, much less connect them

Conceptual thinking isn't universal. By that I mean some people have a very hard time grasping a concept which requires some form of connecting dots to where the mind 'see' the entire idea rather than just one part of it.

In other words they've made up their mind so any facts that debunk their resolve only confuse them. Confusion then makes them revert to the last security they felt which was when they made up their mind.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

24. What if a person is an electrical engineer? Hmm... is it then an unwillingness? nt

[lunatica]

33. It doesn't mean he can't be a shallow thinker when it comes to politics

Most people really don't give much of a shit about political nuances. They like to latch onto the ideas their favorite news channel puts out, and believe they have all the information they need. Saying things to them about corporations having the power sounds like conspiracy theories to them. We tend to sound left fringe when we bring up anything deeper than their simple explanation. Plus they don't want to admit there's any corruption in our government. Those things are way out of their comfort zone.

[totodeinhere]

34. Right. There are plenty of people with a good education in technical fields who are totally

ignorant about the realm of politics.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

36. He admits there's major corruption in government, but he thinks corporations are godly

That's what pisses me off. Corporations are the culprits, as are banks, and in government we merely have their lackeys. No one can run for office in this country without mega-bucks in contributions from corporations and banks. So govt. officials are little more than lackeys to the corporations and banks.

[EC]

25. Turn him on to ALEC

show him that industry is actually WRITING the laws they want the pols they own to pass.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

26. ALEC? nt

[EC]

28. Here are a few links, enjoy...

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=alec&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alec.org%2F&ei=Hxu3TuWMA4TnsQLJg5SEBA&usg=AFQjCNG9-2ef5eVjVVJ9RuN_S0K_tCKPAQ


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=alec&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Falecexposed.org%2F&ei=Hxu3TuWMA4TnsQLJg5SEBA&usg=AFQjCNEiMSynol8jYVUK8HLn8atSDFZl3g


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=alec&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEYQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenation.com%2Farticle%2F161973%2Fkoch-connection&ei=Hxu3TuWMA4TnsQLJg5SEBA&usg=AFQjCNEfXyR-rWWMvsMC5XbqInWIWjeP-Q



On Edit: The first link is to their website. The other two are articles about them. Many of the new laws passed in the states (Voter IDs and Personhood)are directly WRITTEN by ALEC in their workshops with industry and politicians, then brought back to the states and passed. This is mostly in the states that have repub majorities.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

29. Wow! Ok, I've got a lot of reading to do tonite. Thank you.

I think I'm going to have a lot more to say when I finish with these...

[Odin2005]

27. The Economic and Poltiical Elites are tied together at the hips.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

30. Yesss! nt

[Rosa Luxemburg]

31. problems occurred in 1999 - Congress!

The mess was caused by:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/09/19/shattering-the-glass-steagall-act/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/11/glass-steagall-act-the-se_n_201557.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/us/politics/27text-obama.html?pagewanted=print

[rucky]

32. Ultimately, it really is the government.

If we didn't have elected representatives so easily bought off by lobbyists, and unwilling to reform the game that they had to win to get into that position, then corporations wouldn't have as much influence as they do.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

38. But no one can run for office in this country without becoming a lackey to those who can donate

And who can donate bigger than giant corporations?

[rucky]

40. And a majority of lackeys voted to make sure it stays that way. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

41. Yes. But they're still the lackeys, not the corrupt entities themselves .

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lackey


Definition of LACKEY
1
a : footman 2, servant b : someone who does menial tasks or runs errands for another
2
: a servile follower : toady
See lackey defined for English-language learners »
See lackey defined for kids »
Examples of LACKEY

He was nothing but a spineless lackey of the establishment.

[rucky]

43. the way I see it:

corporations are amoral beings. they only exist to make profit. the only thing (short of a public uprising like now) that's keeping them from enslaving us and destroying communities and the environment in the name of profit are laws and regulations made and enforced by government. Wall Street didn't take an oath to protect and defend the constitution, but every member of Congress did. It those fuckers were doing their job, we wouldn't have to take to the streets.

I'm not suggesting that our actions are misdirected, I'm just saying that while there's plenty of reason to protest both wall street and Washington, I'm most angered by the betrayal of the so-called representative who the public trusts to work in their best interest. I don't expect Wall Street to ever work in the public interest.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

44. Then we need to dig Reagan out of his grave and beat the crap out of his bones...

'Cause all this began when that asshole deregulated banks and corporations.

Someone posted these earlier. They pretty much explain everything:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IPjbZFgLsU&feature=related (PART 1)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ogdLwwPSjM (PART 2)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FakZia8sCOA&feature=related (PART 3)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUSyoPcYRds&feature=related (PART 4)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXQGxC6gYAw&feature=related (PART 5)