Human males (especially MEN in Congress) should STFU regarding childbirth ...

[Tx4obama]

until the day that they (the males) can grow a baby within their bodies and have it born out via their vaginas

Why the hell do women of the world allow MEN make rules/laws regarding childbirth/reproductive rights?

Women are 50% of the world's population - women need to tell men to STFU - especially the men that are in the U.S. Congress :)

[newfie11]

1. NO SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ship of Fools]

2. ... we're TRYING ... Takes money, energy; I have neither.

I think we have more riding on Occupy than I'll ever fully appreciate (or live long enough to witness) :)

[handmade34]

3. why are only 17%

of our Senators and Representatives women... men should STFU and women need to get to Congress

[Tx4obama]

5. Yes, we have only 17 female senators in the US Senate

In the Senate - Since January 2009, there are ONLY 17 women serving in the 100-person body

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_United_States_Senate#Current_women_senators


There are MANY issues that are talked about here on DU.

But rarely is the issue of women being UNDER represented in the US Congress ever talked about.

NOW is the time to make this a major issue !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[handmade34]

13. same is true for the House

only 76 women out of 435 = 17%

some interesting reading for downtime...
http://womenincongress.house.gov/

I am currently taking an online sociology class and this weekend's discussion had one young man dreaming of the day a black woman would run for president (lol) I suggested that he go meet Shirley Chisholm
(one of my heros)

[Bluenorthwest]

20. Great documentary about Shirley Chisholm...

Unbought And Unbossed.
Watch it asap...http://shirleychisholm.org/index.php/about-unbought-and-unbossed

[Lance_Boyle]

68. Yet women comprise more than 50% of eligible voters in the US

Why aren't y'all voting for more women? Is that mean ole' "patriarchy" forcibly keeping women home on election day, or somehow preventing them from seeking elected office?

[safeinOhio]

4. Many of us men fight to support

women's rights. Please narrow your broad stroke on STFU.

[Tx4obama]

8. I was trying to direct my main focus on male 'law makers'

perhaps my comment was not clear enough, sorry about that - I have edited the OP ;)

[seabeyond]

36. if you support choice, you ARE staying out of womans decision for her body. nt

[Fumesucker]

6. Would that include those men who support a woman's right to choose? n/t

ETA: Because I can guarantee that the other men, the troglodytes, aren't going to STFU..

[handmade34]

17. thank you for fighting

I just last night thanked my partner for being respectful and willing to fight for women's rights... this takes all conscionable good people

[seabeyond]

37. fighting for choice is staying out of womans decision. nt

[midnight]

7. Male dominated legislatures promoting strange anti science based curriculum teaching sex education,

or legislating the blocking of birth control... It is really getting way out of hand.

[Firebrand Gary]

9. Like the second amendment.

The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.

Funny thing about Women's rights, those rights belong to 50% of the country and that also means 50% OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS.

[pipi_k]

25. It is weird, isn't it...

How some of those 50% (although I think more than 50% of the total population is women), being Republicans, will actually work against their own gender's interests.

To make a comparison, I can't even imagine a scenario in which more than a handful of (very odd) men would work against their own interests and ban something like Viagra, for instance.

Don't want Viagra? Don't take it.

By the same token, don't want an abortion? Don't have one.

sigh...I really don't understand how people think they have the right to stick their noses into the private business of others.

[DetlefK]

10. Dear politicians, please keep your hands off our junk.

Actually, that sexism sets a dangerous precedent.

I am a man and I do NOT want some laws to decide what I can do / can't do with my reproductive organs. Why shouldn't women enjoy the same freedom?

[Ineeda]

11. K&R +100,000,000

I hope women who are knowledgeable of such things are dredging up ancient practices and passing along herbal birth control/abortion methods such as practiced by the Druids. That might be what it will come down to. I used to favor a matriarchal society, but now I think of women such as Palin, Bachmann, Foxx, Blackburn, etc., and that totally freaks me out.

[handmade34]

15. pennyroyal

worked fine for me before abortion was legal... (this is not a recommendation for those not willing to research and study herbal methods)

[Fawke Em]

21. That may explain why Congress attempts to ban herbal remedies

and vitamins from time to time.

[lunatica]

12. Men have been dictating things for thousands of years

It has a name. Patriarchy. It's something a lot of enlightened people (male and female) are sick of and fighting against both on a mundane level and a spiritual level.

[demmiblue]

14. Word. K&R!

:thumbsup:

[Tx4obama]

16. Here is a link to a diagram of what Gov Perry wanted to do to women in Texas

prior to all abortions - even in the case of rape and incest ...

http://www.cancer.umn.edu/cancerinfo/NCI/glossary/CDR46633.html

More context here:
HB15: A Trans-Vaginal Ultrasound Wand In Every Woman!
http://www.burntorangereport.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=11098

[Vinca]

18. There is one thing that would change all this -

a law requiring care and custody (including support) automaticaly go to the male for the first 18 years of life. Suddenly, women would be allowed to make their own choices.

[Tx4obama]

19. Huh?

What do you mean by: "custody automatically go to the male for the first 18 years of life"

Why they hell should a woman that goes thought the PAIN of childbirth be required to hand over CUSTODY of their child to a man?

That is BULLSHIT. The MAN should be required to 'support' the child - but NO WAY the man should automatically get custody.

If a man wants full custody of a child then he MUST go thru the PAIN of childbirth ;)

[DetlefK]

23. How about a compromise? The male has to change the diapers...

...has to get up in the middle of the night, and has to wipe away barfed-up milk.

It is custom in China, that a woman who has just given birth is not allowed to leave bed during the first month afterwards. And her diet in that time includes by tradition a strong chicken broth.

[seabeyond]

24. i dont like china's solution and many many men pull their weight after birth and with their child

i am not going to make men and their role less to make a point here. my hubby and most of the women's husbands i know where a HUGE part of the care for the newborn

and i would not want to stay in bed for a month nor be fed chicken broth....

[DetlefK]

30. I felt that the discussion had took a turn for the comedic.

Complete mandatory care of the child was over-the-top, so I tried to find something in between.

As I said, it's just a custom in China, not law. Depending on the family and region it could be less than a month and less luxurious care.

[musette_sf]

45. Actually, this is a position that so-called "men's rights activists" favor.

Using exactly the same rationale that you cite.

"Father custody would place practical and economic advantages for both the mother and the father on the side of family stability. There would be few divorces. We know this because father custody was formerly mandatory and automatic, and that was the result. There were only a few thousand divorces annually in the mid-nineteenth century when John Stuart Mill wrote 'They are by law his children.'"

"It is the supposed willingness of mothers to sacrifice career to children that supplies the traditional reason for awarding them custody. Father custody would allow them to... put their careers first. Mother custody is an albatross for mothers, a leading cause of the feminization of poverty."

"Automatic father custody will restore the patriarchal family and make women realize that their bargaining power within the patriarchal system depends mostly on their sexual loyalty."

"The kids need fathers, and placing them in their fathers’ custody would enable them to be fathers and enable the mothers to get jobs."

"An economically independent woman is privileged to get out of a bad marriage—or a boring one. This is why economically independent women have the highest divorce rate and why sensible men would be well advised to avoid marriage with them—unless custody is given to fathers."

"If, as feminists wish, patriarchy is to be done away with, women must either become truly economically independent (not dependent on support money from ex-husbands or on affirmative action benefits or on welfare) or they must give up custody of children in divorce cases. If patriarchy is to be preserved, female withdrawal of loyalty to husbands, to marriage, to family, needs to be answered not only by male withdrawal of economic subsidization—the abolition of alimony and child support payments—but by a switch to father custody. "

http://www.fathermag.com/news/Case_for_Father_Custody.pdf

[SharonAnn]

51. I recommmended that DNA samples be taken at 18, when registering for the draft and

used to establish paternity when a child is born. Then, the father would be obligated to support that child until it was 18 or even longer.

You'd see men demanding that women have a right to choose. Of course, the men might want to demand abortions! But at least the women will have the right to choose.

[ensho]

22. AGREE - men should keep their noses out of our business

period.

[itsallhappening]

27. Just hand over the check!

[itsallhappening]

26. Are you opposed to pro-choice men speaking on the issue?

[seabeyond]

38. pro choice is staying out of womens decision.... nt

[itsallhappening]

That's not what I asked.

Should men "STFU" about being pro-choice?

I keep hearing people say that men have no right to even talk about a woman and her choices.

[seabeyond]

42. when you support pro choice you are staying out of the womans business.

when you support choice, it is saying, you are not butting into a womans business. it is such a duh. what dont you get.

[itsallhappening]

46. So it IS okay for men to speak about the issue.

[NYC Liberal]

58. It is okay for men to encourage other men to "butt out,"

which is what being "pro-choice" is about.

[itsallhappening]

64. This is starting to sound like it's okay for men to speak on the issue

depending on what position they hold.

[NYC Liberal]

72. They can encourage other men to stay out.

They don't have a say on whether women should or should not have abortions.

[Odin2005]

28. If us guys could get preggers abortion would be a sacrament.

[itsallhappening]

29. What about women who can "get preggers" and are pro-life?

[RegieRocker]

31. i am in agreement.

[mfcorey1]

32. You are so right!!!!

[GliderGuider]

33. That's always been my position.

Given the course of the last 10,000 years of history, women have earned the absolute right to decide their actions. In contrast, men have earned the absolute responsibility to speak their piece once and then keep their mouths shut while the decision is being made.

There is a lot of re-balancing of power required between the genders.

[Yupster]

34. I'm for a woman's right to choose and a man's right to choose

Here's how it would work.

A woman finds out she is pregnant.

She has a reasonable amount of time to notify the potential fathers.

The man then has a reasonable time to file to the woman an official paper saying that he will or will not accept the rights and responsibilities of fatherhood.

Then the woman has the right to choose whether to give birth or not knowing ahead of time whether she has a partner or not.

That way both the woman and man get to choose whether they are to become parents.

[Ilsa]

35. How about the woman deciding whether she wants to have a baby or not, period.

She might know before ever telling him whether or not she wants to continue the pregnancy.

[Yupster]

52. In my system the woman

does get to decide whether to have the baby or not, period.

I just add that the man should also have the cloice of whether he should have to take on the responsibilities of fatherhood or not.

I don't think and woman should be forced to take on the responsibilities of motherhood without her choosing. I think the same thing for a man.

I think my stem treats each side the fairest.

[NYC Liberal]

59. So a woman should be required to inform a rapist or violent, abusive boyfriend or husband

after they've finally escaped from them?

Sorry, but I don't see that as being a good idea at all. It has all the same issues as the parental notification laws for minors do.

[Yupster]

62. You can have another form

stating that the woman will not inform due to abuse.

The other 90 % should work through my system.

Fair enough?

So how about that Justin Bieber sitaution.

If she is pregnant by him, she can be prosecuted for statutory rape.

Then she will hit him up for child support and he will have to pay $ 100,000 a month to his rapist.

We had a weird case near me where a guy found out his wife was cheating on him and divorced her. He was hit with child support. Then after DNA testing it turned out two of the three kids were the boyfriend's kids, not his.

So the court ordered him to pay child support for the two kids that were not his. He was to send the check to the real father of the kids who was now living with the mother.

He went to jail for informing the two kids that he was not their real dad after the court ordered him not to tell them.

[Matariki]

53. I think I understand Yupster's point and it's two separate but related issues.

I don't think s/he is saying that men have any say if the woman carries the pregnacy to term or not, but that men also get a chance to choose if they want to be a parent.

It easy to say to men - 'well you should have thought about that before having sex'. But that's what's been said to women forever and it's neither fair or realistic. I personally think it's fair to give men some means of choice over whether they want to be a responsible for the pregnancy. I've known a number of young men whose live's were really pretty much ruined by unplanned pregnancies.

[Matariki]

50. I agree with that, but I think you won't find it's a popular idea here.

Although it might be better for all that to be negotiated *before* sex.

[Boojatta]

39. How about non-human males, such as Kang and Kodos?

[Faithful One]

40. I always get wary of topics like these

as they come dangerously close to misandry-type comments.

y'know, "BLAME MEN FOR EVERYTHING"

[Nevernose]

41. "A woman's primary role is as a brood mare of the state"

From George Carlin's "Back in Town" (1996):

Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fucked.

Conservatives don't give a shit about you until you reach 'military age'. Then they think you are just fine. Just what they've been looking for. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers.

Pro-life... pro-life... These people aren't pro-life, they're killing doctors! What kind of pro-life is that? What, they'll do anything they can to save a fetus but if it grows up to be a doctor they just might have to kill it? They're not pro-life.

You know what they are? They're anti-woman. Simple as it gets, anti-woman. They don't like them. They don't like women. They believe a woman's primary role is to function as a brood mare for the state.

Pro-life... You don't see many of these white anti-abortion women volunteering to have any black fetuses transplanted into their uteruses, do you? No, you don't see them adopting a whole lot of crack babies, do you? No, that might be something Christ would do.

And you won't see a lot of these pro-life people dousing themselves in kerosene and lighting themselves on fire. You know, morally committed people in South Vietnam knew how to stage a god-damned demonstration, didn't they? They knew how to put on a fuckin' protest. Light yourself on fire! Come on, you moral crusaders, let's see a little smoke to match that fire in your belly.

[NMMNG]

49. George Carlin always knew how to say it

:applause:

[MellowDem]

43. What a nasty, foolish idea...

In a democracy, everyone gets a say, even over things they may not be effected the same as others. That's the way it goes. To do it any other way would not be practical.

As it is, childbirth is not just about women, it effects men and society in general as well. Men, after all, have mothers, daughters, sisters, and friends that are women (who don't tell them to STFU). And childbirth has a direct impact on our economy, environment, and many other aspects of society that effect us all.

Our society has already said that nobody, men or women, can overcome certain reproductive rights.

You should be trying to convince those opposed to reproductive rights, not attacking men in general and telling them to STFU. It's counterproductive. Telling them to STFU will likely just cause those opposed to reproductive rights to redouble their efforts, while alienating men that agree with you. And I don't think you're going to pass anything anytime soon that says men can have no opinion on reproductive rights.

Your solution is that by cutting men out of the equation by giving them no voice, which won't happen and is a fantasy, you assume women will act all that differently towards reproductive rights on their own. Not to mention, if you don't change the perception in wider society, including men, then you really haven't changed anything.

So this whole post just comes across as needlessly hostile towards men in general.

[Occupy_2012]

44. Men having "no voice"

Isn't strictly accurate. These guys were never prevented from using birth control themselves, or abstaining from sex unless they were either married or could afford children, depending on the situation.

The reason women don't want to cede control of pregnancy decisions over to men, is because the fetus in question is inside their body, not the man's body. If it was inside the man's body, the man could decide. Most of the time when somebody wants to have an abortion, either they have a serious health problem, in which case the owner of the body should have the final word about whether they'd like to live or not, or they are not in suitable circumstances to bear and raise a child.

If the circumstances for child-rearing are bad, you know who has probably has a lot to do with that? The man. Who is going to put their life and future in the hands of a person who is done with them and doesn't care what happens to them any more, or who is sleeping with another woman and trying to have a family with her? You might as well put your life in the hands of somebody you don't trust and whom may actively hate you and wish you were dead. And you have to put your life in this person's hands or you're immoral? Women think you'd be crazy to do that, you wouldn't be safe or taken care of properly right when you are sick and vulnerable and most helpless financially and physically. Women also have the experience of very malicious ex husbands or ex boyfriends stalking them, beating them, or making incredibly vicious and nasty remarks about them to friends and family, or to the women themselves. We all have a girlfriend, sister or mother that has lived through that, even if we haven't ourselves. We feel compelled to do what we can to protect ourselves emotionally as well as physically.

Men tend to look at a fetus as a separate human being. Women tend to look at a fetus something that is a part of their body, gradually growing into a separate person. Women feel very threatened and frightened by men threatening to take their body control away from them and force them to be used against their will. That's the legal definition of slavery.

I've noticed a lot of men don't seem to have any understanding of the idea that pregnancy is a profoundly emotional experience. They seem to deny that carrying a fetus for 9 months and building a whole baby out of your own flesh and blood from a zygote, makes you feel that you own it. They seem to think that women are just baby machines who have no more right to the fruit of their own body than somebody that had nothing to do with building it. Building a baby is literally a woman's life work, it's not a doll you can buy at the store.

For centuries, women have been tricked or pressured to giving their children up to wealthier people, and they're supposed to just walk away empty-armed and feel nothing. As long as men don't acknowledge that you want to take control of something a woman is deeply emotionally connected to, women will not feel safe that their rights are respected. You can't just decide to yank something out of the inside of a woman's body and take it away, and not understand she is going to fight that with everything she's got. It's our bodies, not yours. The "mother" instinct goes a lot further than just raising a child. It's like cutting off somebody else's leg and keeping it for yourself, because you want it, and that gives you a right to their leg as much as they have a right to their own leg. If you want to be a part of raising a child, be a good husband and father, and the issue won't come up. If the marriage doesn't work out, continue to be a good father. Don't decide because you no longer want to have sex with the mother, you don't have to pay child support any more, or that it's your "ex-wife and ex-kid" when you re-marry, like several men I know. Women not wanting men to have a choice is a sign of women being defensive. In other words, they do not feel safe with their fate in your hands.

BTW, I don't expect you to listen to my argument seriously, or allow anything I say to change your mind. In fact I expect an extremely angry and nasty response. Men are often very closed-minded about womens' feelings about pregnancy and childbirth. They only want women to feel what it is to their advantage to permit. Nothing else is acceptable. This is exactly why women fight being controlled by them.

[MellowDem]

47. I think you misinterpreted what I said...

I never claimed men have "no voice", I just said that men will have an equal voice to women when it comes to laws that restrict reproductive rights, at least those not already protected, and trying to take away's men's opinions isn't a viable solution, so what was the point of the OP?

Not to mention, plenty of women work very hard to restrict other women's reproductive rights as well, and plenty of men stand up for those rights. I don't think the issue is gender per se, and making it such only divides those for reproductive rights for no good reason.

I am not quite sure what your argument is, I think you make several rather broad generalizations about men and women and their understanding of a fetus.

I don't think women should be controlled by men, but the truth is, there are so many women that want to control what other women do with their own bodies, and so many men that think women should have a choice, that it's not really about men wanting to control women as much as one segment of society wanting to limit the reproductive rights of women while another does not, for a wide variety of reasons.

I think it is a bad strategy to make this a man vs woman issue, where the solution is to take men out of the debate completely. I don't think that's possible for one thing, and also will not solve anything for another. I am also rather disturbed by the idea that men should not have a say simply because they are men. Personally, I don't think anyone should have a say on reproductive rights, they are sacrosanct and cannot be legislated against. And some are, though there are exceptions to how far it goes. So why the focus on men?

[Matariki]

48. delete

I reread your post and am pretty sure I misunderstood it. This is a very touchy topic for me.

[metalbot]

54. Then maybe your body shouldn't have had sex?

Sorry, but it takes two to tango. Yes, the female has to carry the child, but outside of incidents of rape, there are two participants to the creation of that child. The fact that one of those has to bear the child for 9 months shouldn't inherently mean that the other of those two should "STFU" about the results of that pregnancy.

[Matariki]

56. Are you from the past?

[metalbot]

61. You can't have it both ways

I guess I am from the past, by definition, since I was born long before this post.

You can't have it both ways.

Two people have sex. This results in a pregnancy.

The fact that the pregnancy occurs in a woman's body can't mean both: (A) I, as the female, get to choose whether to have this baby, and (B) if I choose to have this baby, the man has to pay for it, because he's the co-parent of the baby. Which one is true? If the man is a co-parent, then you would think he has SOME say in whether that baby is born or not. I'm not objecting to the notion of choice here, but rather to the idea of "STFU, it has nothing to do with you". If you want true freedom of choice, then I would argue that a man has a right to force a woman to have an abortion (or to be freed from the obligation to support that baby if the mother chooses not to abort).

[Matariki]

63. You are arguing with the wrong person.

My STFU goes as far as someone forcing me, or any woman, to do something with my/their body they don't want to do. Specifically to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. Other people, whether men or women, don't get a say in that - not even the father of the child.

I AGREE with your point B. I don't think that a man who doesn't want a child should be forced to be responsible for a pregnancy he doesn't want.

[MellowDem]

57. Why don't you slow down and read it...

nowhere does it say that reproductive rights should be up for a democratic vote.

Rather, it just states the fact that some aspects of reproductive rights ARE up for a vote. That's the reality. And as such, both men and women vote on it. I agree there shouldn't be a vote for it on many aspects that there are. But that's the reality we have right now.

Rather, I was responding to the OP's argument that, under the reality that such rights are up for a vote, men should have no say. It's not a viable solution, and it ignores the fact that plenty of opposition to those rights are women.

[Matariki]

60. Yes, I reread your post and deleted what I wrote. I misread it the first time.

To be fair, your subject line was provocative. As I said, it's a very sensitive topic. It's a very sensitive topic for women. When I came of age abortion was just being legalized. I know exactly how bad it was for women before that. Unless you are a woman I think it is *very* difficult to understand how essential it is that the choice remain 100% in a woman's own hands. Many, many of the advances women have made in the past 40 years are both a direct and indirect result of Roe v. Wade.

[MellowDem]

66. I understand...

I guess I was taken aback by the OP's tone, which I did find needlessly provocative, and the message wasn't very helpful, but rather hostile.

I think plenty of men can and do understand the importance of choice, moreso than even many women, given that many men support choice and many women oppose it.

[harun]

55. The post comes across as needlessly hostile towards men because it is needlessly hostile towards men

[NeedleCast]

65. Pro-Choice Male - Shutting Up

No more pro-choice advocacy from me. I've been told.

[Flubadubya]

67. [phone]!!!!!

[Iggo]

69. Never.

[Canuckistanian]

70. Anyone remember this?

The bill signing for the so-called "partial-birth abortion" ban.

Note the complete lack of estrogen in that room.

[Major Hogwash]

71. Man, talk about waking up on the wrong side of the bed!!

He must be sleeping on the couch now or sumthing!