Bill would require Pledge of Allegiance in schools

[douglas9]

LANSING -- Public school students in Michigan would recite the Pledge of Allegiance daily in the classroom if a Senate bill is passed into law.

The bill, introduced by Sen. Roger Kahn, R-Saginaw, would require a school district to have an American flag in every classroom and mandate that every student recite the Pledge of Allegiance each school day.

Requiring students to recite the pledge and the accompanying controversy are not new, said Arlene Marie, state director of the Michigan Atheists. And it's not just over the phrase "under God."

"The 'under God' is far less important to me than the entire sense that requiring the Pledge of Allegiance is just plain wrong," she said. "It is divisive and there are many reasons why parents would not want their children to say the Pledge of Allegiance."

Children are not old enough to understand an oath or a pledge to anything, she said. And there are various religions that forbid their followers' children from taking oaths or pledges. She cited Jehovah's Witnesses as an example.

"Many children in our public schools are not even citizens of this country," Marie said.

http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/sbt-bill-would-require-pledge-of-allegiance-in-schools-20111107,0,1567607.story

[newfie11]

1. As a kid I was required to say it in school

I really didn't think about the words. it was a memorized thing we all said to start the day.

[eShirl]

8. Required by whom? The state?

[newfie11]

12. Don't know

I moved a lot and lived in many different states. Dad an IBEW electrician and we moved wherever the union sent us. I just went along with all the other kids.

I remember in one school in California we had to assemble every morning as the flag was being raised and say the pledge. I believe that was in Fresno. All the other schools it was just in the room facing the flag.

With over 30 schools it is hard to remember.

[Major Nikon]

33. That's the way it was in Texas

I suspect pretty much everywhere else back in the 50's and 60's. I don't know if you could opt out or not. Nobody ever did.

It was fucking stupid then and just as much so now.

[TBF]

48. And the way it still is in Texas ... nt

[newfie11]

49. yes some of the schools were in TX

Midland, Freeport, Monahans

[Matariki]

45. Yep. It was the way I learned my right hand from my left.

It was that ingrained from such an early age.

[Arctic Dave]

2. A sure sign of a crumbling empire. Nt

[Javaman]

24. +1

forcing people, especially children, to clap harder, always works.

[L0oniX]

38. +99%

[no_hypocrisy]

3. Show me just one classroom that DOESN'T have a flag and a class that DOESN'T

recite The Pledge every morning. There isn't any.

Why not propose a bill that the Senator really wants: Just have a mandate that the kids say "One Nation Under God" five times a day during school hours and get it over with.

BTW, it would unconstitutional to require each student to recite The Pledge as a Supreme Court case (Barnette) allowed students to be exempt from reciting The Pledge on religious grounds.*

*The Free Speech clause of the First Amendment prohibits public schools from forcing students to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance. District Court affirmed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

[Ian David]

22. We should make them bow towards D.C. on little Freedom Rugs while we're at it. n/t

[adigal]

44. Best comment today!! Thanks for the guffaw!!! n/t

[NYC_SKP]

26. Every class in our district, AFAIK, does NOT have a flag or recite the pledge.

I taught at six of our various sites and it was never done.

We will, however, do it at certain public events and celebrations.

We are a public charter school program with union teachers.

And, educationally, we kick ass.

:patriot:

[no_hypocrisy]

28. Just the opposite where I teach in Bergen County (NJ).

Over the school intercom, the kids are commanded to stand en masse, face the flag, and salute as a disjointed voice recites the flag.

[NYC_SKP]

29. OMG: Intercoms and bells, poor students-- poor teachers!

Occasionally I visit a school across town or in some other part of the state and I'll be in a conversation with students or teachers and all of a sudden some horrible sound will commence and completely kill the moment.

Intercoms. Bells and alarms and 40 minute periods.

Small wonder kids are struggling.

Small wonder that the expressions of wonder on the faces of 4th and 5th graders turns into expressions of depression and hatred on the faces of 9th and 10th graders.

So sorry!

x(

[no_hypocrisy]

30. Let's say there was a more intimate, local classroom feel to the flag salute

when I was growing up. Just your teacher's voice. In Kindergarten, it was a big deal to be selected to hold the flag while the rest of the class said the salute. The latter ritual made my eyes burn with tears as one of my Kindergarten classmates died in 9-11. All I could think of was him at age 5 and the lies we were told.

[NYC_SKP]

31. I'm so sorry to hear about your friend.

But feeling wistful thinking about the early years- we didn't have a kindergarten in our 8-grade 2-teacher rural school, but I similarly remember the pledge fondly.

IIRC, there was a rotating "sergeant at arms" role for a selected student and this ritual set the stage for learning.

Not the content of the pledge, just the propriety of the educational day.

I can still picture the desks and walls and windows of the old school, now torn down.

And the light wood colors of the desks and furnishings, a Golden Oak or Light Ash or other light colored woods.

And a crayon box with my favorite colors!

:P

[Warren DeMontague]

51. edit. delete.

[eShirl]

4. "She cited Jehovah's Witnesses as an example." Quakers don't do oaths, either.

[Obamanaut]

10. It was "an example." Often "an example" is just one from a list. nt

[eShirl]

14. er... no kidding.

:shrug:

[Obamanaut]

40. Really, no kidding. But it is amazing how many people have a need for

recognition and despite the words "an example" or "for example" will insert even more examples, saying in effect "Look at ME! I know one that you didn't say!"

Sad isn't it. I'll bet there's at least one other one listed in this thread by now.

[HockeyMom]

11. Wiccans either

"I don't pledge anything to a piece of cloth". A teenage Wiccan boy would stand outside the classroom when the pledge came on over the PA.

[eShirl]

15. I usually just stood there, but didn't recite or put my hand over my heart.

[hobbit709]

5. I believe that won't stand up in court.

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette in 1943.

[Fumesucker]

6. ...

[JoePhilly]

7. That'll create lots of jobs.

[rurallib]

18. making flags in China?

[JoePhilly]

25. Maybe a few lawsuits.

[fasttense]

9. I grew up having to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

It always looked to me to be a very communist type behavior, having all the nation's children stand up, put their hands over their hearts, and recite daily their love for the imaginary notion of country. Then to make it even more fantastical, they threw in "Under God." So, it became a pledge to an imaginary border decision and an imaginary being in the sky. If they got us believing this crap, what else can they make us believe?

Guess what, just saying it everyday did NOT make me believe it. In fact, I would say it made me hate it.

[LiberalFighter]

13. Schools are having financial problems and they want a requirement that each classroom

to have a flag? Don't they have any common sense to tell them face the flag that is the front of the building?

Why even have a flag pole? I bet there is a flag in the gymnasium that they don't need.

[madrchsod]

16. i did back in the god fearing days of the 50`s.

after all someone had to save us from the red chinese and the evil soviet union.

[rug]

17. Pennsylvania tried this after 9/11 and it was ruled unconstitutional.

Coerced speech is not free speech.

[LWolf]

19. And then there is the inherent contradiction,

aside from the fact that a forced "pledge" of allegiance to anything isn't worth the oxygen used to speak it.

If I mean my "pledge," then once is enough. I don't need to repeat it every day.

If I don't mean it, then no thousands of repetitions will change that.

It's a useless exercise, except for the purposes of nationalism, propaganda, and brain-washing.

And yes, I stand every work morning with my students while the entire school recites the pledge. I've never, in 28 years, worked at a school that didn't require this.

I usually do not recite; just stand with them. Sometimes I will recite the very last line, which is something I can honestly pledge allegiance to: "liberty and justice for all." Including the liberty not to pledge allegiance to anything.

My students are the oldest in our school. The younger students recite faithfully. My students stand quietly (mostly.) Some recite. Some don't. We don't waste time talking about it. When we are done, we get to class and get our day started.

[Ezlivin]

20. As long as it's THE ORIGINAL PLEDGE with the ORIGINAL HAND POSITION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA0A0ymd0CM

[yesphan]

36. Interesting hand position there.

Is that Margaret Hamilton as the teacher in the video ?

[Ezlivin]

42. Yes, that's Margaret Hamilton

I, too, was surprised by the hand position. It's a bit too reminiscent of the "Heil, Hitler" move.

[treestar]

56. Didn't know that about the hand position

[Ship of Fools]

21. MI tax dollars at work ...

I hated the pledge. By the 4th grade, I stood in defiant silence.
I couldn't have explained why at that point, but it went against
every fiber of my being. So Plblblblblblblt to Sen. Kahn. What a maroon.

[Shagbark Hickory]

23. Of all the problems michigan has, they've chosen to work on this?!

Unreal.

[dembotoz]

27. i was in high school during much of viet nam--the school did the pledge at least once a week

during homeroom.
as a nam protest 3-4 of us would remain in our seat.
we called ourselves the "southeast corner minority of homeroom 43"

our homeroom teacher--a dear older man--Norm Eberhart, never made a big deal about it.
If it was because he respected us or because he just did not want to deal with a couple hippie wanna be's in the corner--i will never know

to this day while i may stand, i do not say the pledge or sing the national anthem.

[buddysmellgood]

32. A forced pledge can build resentment.

[Major Nikon]

34. Get 'em while they're young

Many will grow up, fully develop their frontal lobe, and realize how fucking stupid and manipulative it was. Some won't, and those people are generally referred to as Republicans.

Works well with other things too, like religion.

[shraby]

35. That's called institutionalized brain-washing.

Must have good, obedient little proles.

[L0oniX]

37. No jobs but hey we're making progress with this bill aren't we.

[gratuitous]

39. Dammit, are you people stupid or just intentionally missing the point???

Clearly, Sen. Kahn is concerned that without a daily recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance and presentation of Old Glory, the little darlings at PS 31 might forget what country they're in. It's easy to get confused on that point nowadays, what with the extra-judicial murders, the secret trials, the holding of undesireables incommunicado without charge, counsel or prospect of trial. These were things the United States used to be four-square against, but now we're among the planet's leading practitioners. Little Johnny and Susie are probably all mixed up about whether they're being educated in Soviet Russia or the good old U. S. of A. Roger Kahn is only trying to help!

And this is the thanks he gets . . .

[Iggo]

41. Flag worshippers will be the doom of us all. (n/t)

[SteveG]

43. West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943)

ruled that it was Unconstitutional to require students to recite it. They are free to sit and be silent.

[treestar]

57. State legislatures

Should use the resources they have. Look how ignorant this one appears to be!

[RegieRocker]

46. Yawol!

[Texasgal]

47. Dosen't MI have other real

MASSIVE issues to deal with?

You know, like JOBS? Infastructure? Isn't Detroit in tatters? And THIS what they are arguing about?

JESUZ.

[Posteritatis]

54. Well, they need something to distract themselves from their pro-bullying legislation. (nt)

[DevonRex]

50. And what happens to the kids who refuse? Mine always did.

They caught flak for it from classmates but inevitably wound up teaching their friends about the concept of freedom of speech. If there had been some sort of punishment for refusing then the district and I would have met up in court.

[Warren DeMontague]

52. Tough shit. Constitutionally, you CAN'T 'require' anyone to SAY it.

And even before I knew that, or even before I figured out that there were actually other atheists in the world besides me, I would say "One Nation nungle frop"


and this was, like, 1975.

[Posteritatis]

53. Involuntary loyalty oaths are the best kind! (nt)

[SomethingFishy]

55. Sorry we couldn't create any jobs we were busy...

With the Pledge of allegiance and In God We Trust.

Next week we are going to reaffirm that the name of this country is America.


We'll get around to that pesky jobs thing if you don't vote for Obama.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JayceR]

59. Worst Congress Ever

What an abhorrent waste of time and money. Who elected these nationalistic wingnuts?!

Republican Priorities: (In no particular order)
-Ban safe abortion, encourage back alley abortion
-Kill criminals we don't Like
-Waste millions inscribing an outdated, embarrassing motto on monuments nationwide
-Make sure big oil get their tax cuts
-Revoke first amendment rights of union workers
-Return us to Gilded-Age, no-regulations bullshit
-Eliminate all welfare
-Make life hell for anyone who isn't a rich, white protestant male