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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 10:58 AM
Original message
KRUGMAN: Here Comes The Sun
Here Comes the Sun
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: November 6, 2011

.............We are, or at least we should be, on the cusp of an energy transformation, driven by the rapidly falling cost of solar power. That’s right, solar power.

If that surprises you, if you still think of solar power as some kind of hippie fantasy, blame our fossilized political system, in which fossil fuel producers have both powerful political allies and a powerful propaganda machine that denigrates alternatives.

................

Let’s face it: a large part of our political class, including essentially the entire G.O.P., is deeply invested in an energy sector dominated by fossil fuels, and actively hostile to alternatives. This political class will do everything it can to ensure subsidies for the extraction and use of fossil fuels, directly with taxpayers’ money and indirectly by letting the industry off the hook for environmental costs, while ridiculing technologies like solar.

So what you need to know is that nothing you hear from these people is true. Fracking is not a dream come true; solar is now cost-effective. Here comes the sun, if we’re willing to let it in.

MORE: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/opinion/krugman-here-comes-solar-energy.html
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RegieRocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. There are vast improvements on the horizon.
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BOHICA12 Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. But how far is that horizon?
and will we be the serfs of the Chinese when it gets here?
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #18
36. The horizon draws closer every day
And in case you haven't noticed we are already serfs for the Chinese.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #18
38. No, when we get to the horizon
the making of the revolutionary new solar panels will be outsourced to China...
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. Major K. Major R. 99%ers take note
There it is. There you have it.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. The whole essay is excellent. I learned a lot.
K and R, most definitely.
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InvisibleTouch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. Always a K&R for solar power! n/t
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. K&R n/t
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. Solar power is cost effective. When made in China. Out of the frying pan, into the fire? nt
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. Why does it have to be made in china?
A hell of a lot of the research into improved ways of harnessing solar is happening here in the US and in Canada. There are start-up companies here in the US and in Canada.
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bongbong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. Unfortunately true
Making photovoltaic cells creates all kinds of nasty heavy metals and other toxic pollutants. In China, they just dump these in the river. Treating them properly is super expensive.

Germany had a scandal recently when they bought a big order of solar cells from China. Even with shipping & other extra costs, German panels were nowhere as cheap as Chinese.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. recommend, recommend, recommend!
not soon enough!
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. K & R - great article! Just shared it on Facebook. n/t
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. These fossilized companies also bought up and are sitting on important patents
that might have changed everything 30 years ago. There is also a movement to centralize solar which is the opposite direction we need to be
moving in. Decentralized, localized, diversified is the way ahead.
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BrendaBrick Donating Member (859 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. On the patents...
I wouldn't have considered that...but it makes perfect sense. Do you know of any communities that have already decentralized and localized anywhere in the US? Also, would you happen to know if these patents have an expiration date?

I was just doing some research and it seems that in the fall of last year, Obama was to have solar panels re-installed at the White House in 2011. It's (obviously) November already and I can't seem to find anything which says that this has occurred. I could be wrong.

Here's an older Democracy Now video talking about this and 350.org:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b34u51b3MXo


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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. If you are really interested in the nitty gritty of what happened
years ago that got us here I would highly recommend a little paperback written in the late 70's titled, The Sun Betrayed.
It provides anyone interested in this topic a foundation for understanding how this whole thing was played out.

Solar energy technologies provide the promise of increased local self-sufficiency and self-management as well as the provision of energy with minimal environmental impact. But how is the promise to be realised? For those who still look towards big corporations or government for some help in moving towards a soft energy future, The Sun Betrayed will dash any illusions. Reece analyses the approach of US corporations and government bodies to solar energy from the early 1970s to 1979. He shows how they have attempted to control the rate of commercialisation of solar energy so as to maximise fossil fuel profits, how they have emphasised solar technologies that are capital-intensive and suited for centralised control (such as solar power towers), how government solar funding has been channelled to large corporations, and how control over energy decisions has been centralised. Reece also shows how the energy multinationals are trying to co-opt solar energy as part of a wider strategy. "Not only, therefore, have Wall Street corporations thoroughly 'penetrated' the US solar market through intracorporate diversification ('cross-subsidization'), extensive government subsidy, and the purchase of smaller firms, they have organised a solar industries association clearly devoted to building a solar market that will be compatible with the larger aims and 'hard-path' energy goals of the corporate elite in general" (pp. 186-7). With several years delay, similar developments may be expected in Australia.

The Sun Betrayed is written in a readable, journalistic style packed with numerous thumbnail sketches of key individuals and descriptions of government studies and policies, corporate moves and frustrated innovators. Reece's conclusion is that small-scale applications of solar energy will only be implemented following local and regional initiatives, especially those which unite the poor, unemployed and oppressed in self-help efforts. All that can be hoped for from the federal government is some facilitation or just tolerance of local efforts in promoting decentralised, democratic and maximally efficient applications of solar energy.


http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Betrayed-Corporate-Seizure-Development/dp/0896080714


I have not personally followed up on the patents, but I'm sure the info is out there somewhere.
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Can you site the patents? Much of the gains in solar could not
have been achieved without computing power and materials science advances.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
13. Krugman ignored the weak point on Solar, electrical storage when the sun is down
Now, they are ways to address that problem, first are batteries. The problem with batteries that even the most efficient (Lithium) have "problems". In the case of Lithium it is how much lithium in the world, most of which is in China. Lithium is reusable but still a restriction as to electrical storage.

Recently I ran across an article on DU, talking about the increase efficiently of batteries and if the present trend continues a battery come 2030 will be able to hold as much as 10% of the power of the same weight of Gasoline (provided some wall is NOT hit by then, which is a real possibility, batteries have existed since the 1800s and thus NOT new technology as are the newer variations of Solar Panels):

My response to the thread on DU:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=302335&mesg_id=302689

The thread on DU:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x302335

Another method of energy storage is NOT to use something doing times when power is in short supply, i.e. do NOT open the refrigerator's door at night or if you do there is enough cold air in the Refrigerator that it can wait till morning and the sun to refrigerate (Conserve energy during periods when energy from the sun is NOT available). Minimal lighting during the nighttime, cooking and working doing day time hours so to get the most benefit of the sun and solar power. Remember most solar system works even on cloudy days, they only stop working doing extreme darkness such as at night or during severe storms (and then during such storms only for a few hours at best).

Batteries are the weak link in any use of Solar (or wind) power. Energy inefficiency of Batteries, i.e. electricity into a battery vs what comes out, is the weakest like. In Lead base and most other batteries it runs about 25% (Lithium claims a much higher level of efficiency but I have NOT yet run across a source that clearly shows that to be true, just a lot of claims on the net, with many confusing the increase in efficiency of Lithium over Lead acid batteries with the actual efficiency of Lithium batteries, and a lot of cites clearly making that "Mistake" for their own betterment).

This is a set of confusion for traditionally Fuel Cells (at 50-60% electrical efficiency) and Fly Wheels (At 90% electrical efficiency). Fuel Cells was everyone's favorite device of the future prior to about 2002 when Lithium batteries became all the rage, but fly wheels have always been viewed as the best electrical storage device.

More on Fuel Cells:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_storage

More on Fly Wheels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

More on various types of Electricity storage devices:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_storage

An alternative method of storage is to use the electrical power to pump water uphill, then when the sun is down to release the water to propel water turbines. Has the potential to store a lot of power for a long time period, but hard to use in something like an automobiles. This is used today by some large Utilities, excess energy produced by hard to start or stop Nuclear and Coal plants, is used to push the water uphill, when needed during peak hours the water is released and used to run water generators, which are the fastest electrical generators to turn off or on.

Another "solution" to the energy crunch is the proposal to use new technology on free flowing rivers (i.e. no dams). Such generators would NOT be able to "store" energy but could be a good source of base energy (For use by Industry and transportation).

http://www.hydroreform.org/sites/www.hydroreform.org/files/HRC%20In-river%20Hydrokinetic%20Projects%20FAQs.pdf

Some Developers of such projects:
http://www.free-flow-power.com/
http://www.hgenergy.com/
http://verdantpower.com/

These promise a lot of CHEAP electrical power for Commercial use as while as backup for Solar Power Residential use.

One last comment, the reason the Gasoline Engine won out over the Electrical Car by the 1920s was two fold, first was that more and more buyers of automobiles in the 1920s were people who lived in Rural America, who had no access to electricity till the rural electrification programs of the 1930s. Second was the greater amount of energy that can be stored in a gallon of Gasoline compared to lead acid batteries (A third restriction was that most homes that did have electrical service in the 1920s had 100 amp or less service, thus would take hours, if not days, to charge an electrical car, even today to decrease charging time would require a huge increase in Electrical amperage into people's home).

My point is energy storage is the weak point in regards to Solar Power, there are ways around that weak point (including just shutting down doing the night like out ancestors did).

One way to "store" electrical energy is to use that electricity to produce a carbon base form of energy (i.e. use electricity to convert crops into ethanol instead of using the actual energy from the crop itself, thus the ethanol is a method to store electrical power in a very compact package). I foresee this being the main use of ethanol for aircraft do to the need for aircraft to be as light as possible and gasoline and Ethanol offers the most power per weight of any substance other then nuclear power).

Side note: The US Air Force did test running a Nuclear generator on a B-36 bomber in the 1950s as the first step in using nuclear power in aircraft. No further research followed do to the extreme weight of the nuclear power device, you needed an aircraft as large as the B-36, which had six prop engines AND four jet engines, just to carry the device. Thus nuclear power is possible, but you would need something on the size of the 747 just to carry the nuclear device to provide the power to propel the plane, with no room for cargo or passengers. i.e. A nuclear plane would have to be so large it would make a 747 look puny in comparison AND would have to run 24 hours a day, seven day a week with a full load of passengers just to break even. The US Air Force did not think it could do that so cancelled the whole idea and today looking to bio-fuel as a fuel for its planes NOT nuclear energy.

Now the biggest use of energy in the US is transportation, mostly oil to move people to and from work AND to move goods around. This is over 50% of energy used in the US. A recent study determined that if the US was as energy efficient as Europe when it came to oil, we would be a net oil exporter (The US is still the #3 oil producer in the world, but has been in constant decline since 1970). People moving closer to where they work would reduce energy usage to a huge degree (In fact this was the norm for people prior to the 1950s and the US full embrace of Suburbia).

The problem with energy storage is most severe when it comes to transportation. Rail was heading for overhead electrical power source by 1900, but reversed and switched to conversion to diesel in the 1930s as the price of oil dropped (The rest of the world continued on the conversion of rail to electrical system, but the US ended up taking down the few electrical systems that did exist, leaving only AMTRAK using electrical power and then only in the Northeast).

It would be relatively easy to convert rail systems to over head electrical systems and given the potential for increase water, Solar and wind power provide power to such systems at minimal costs. The interstates can be converted to a similar system using overhead wires and hybrid trucks that had a pantograph to hook up to such overhead wires (and an internal control system to measure and charge for the electrical power used).

The biggest problem is non-major highways and residential streets. I do not think it would be cost effective to convert such roads to pantograph electrical system so some sort of electrical battery system would have to be employed. Such a system would eat up power, but if combined with the use of bicycles and increase mass transit (either LRV or trolley buses using overhead wires) would lead to a severe drop in oil consumption (and thus the need to oil). I do not see this occurring for another 20-30 years as people try everything else first but it makes the best use of electrical power when it comes to transportation especially as Solar with increase use of inflow water generation systems become our main source of energy.

Before you attack my comments on the need for people to move closer to where they work so as to minimize energy costs, I foresee this for the simple reason none of the proposed alternatives to Oil are good enough by themselves to provide the power we need to maintain the current US Social Structure. We are to dependent on oil for much of our life style for such a life style to survive any lost of access to oil no matter how much solar energy we produce over the next 20-30 years. Something has to give and that will be suburbia. Suburbia may come back in 40-50 years as we adjust to a non-oil dependent society but NOT in the foreseeable 20-30 year block of time. The fact that the US is dependent on oil for 50% of its energy use and most of that is in the form of transportation puts severe restrictions on what the US can adjust to in a short period of time (and by short period of time, I am saying 20-30 years is a short period of time).

For example it would take 10-20 years just to convert the Railroads to electrical systems and another 10-20 years to set up the interstate highway system for use with electrical overhead wires. Such projects take times. even if we would require anyone who replaces the tiles on his or her roof that the replacement be solar panels that would take 10-20 years (and no one is even suggesting such a rule of law).

Solar power will help the US make the adjustment away from oil over the next 20-30 years, but it will fall short of doing the job itself UNLESS we start to conserve energy and that requires increase use of Mass Transit and people moving closer to where their work. Batteries are the weak link in any energy future based on Solar, but with conservation can be minimized if and when most of the people of the US accept the need for change, unfortunately we are no where near to convincing most Americans that they must change their life style and until that most Americans accept that unpleasant fact all we can do is make what adjustments we can do (i.e. install the Solar Systems into our homes, move closer to work, use a bicycle as a replacement for out automobiles as much as possible etc).
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Major Nikon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. I don't believe Krugman suggested that all our energy needs can be met by solar
There's no requirement to store solar energy in order for it to be used. As long as it's putting power on the grid, non-renewable sources of energy can be turned off which is a good thing. Solar may not work when the sun goes down, but guess what? Energy demand goes down at night.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. Neither did I, Just pointing out the MAIN weakness of Solar
And that that weakness has to be addressed or it will be used to attack future solar concepts. In any thing, you have to anticipate what the opposition will do to attack it, thus be better able to defend it. Solar greatest weakness is it is dependent on the Sun, but there are ways to address that weakness and any solar project will have to include those problems (One solution is to go back to working only doing daylight hours, a concept a lot of people will object to, but minimizes the need for ways to store solar powered electricity).
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Shanti Mama Donating Member (625 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Thanks for you long, informative reply.
I live in Nepal, a country that is replete with localized solar projects. Everyone except US Embassy employees heats water with solar and that heat is held through the night for morning showers.

As for not doing things that require energy when it's not available... the developed world really could learn from less developed nations. It is common practice to conserve the use of resources here. And, we don't eat foods that aren't in season. What a concept!
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I didn't know that about Nepal. Very interesting!
Keep posting this information to your fellow humans in North America and thanks a million.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
40. I did some reserch on Solar Panels in the 1970s, at that time Solar Water heaters was the way to go
I even ran across some cites (and this is the 1970s) that show how you could use Solar Water Heaters to provide refrigeration. Such refrigeration required the use of then old fashioned natural gas powered refrigerators (popular in the US in the 1930s and 1940s, My Mother had one, but left it behind when she moved to an area without Natural Gas Service).

Unlike electrical Refrigerators, which rely on compression to produce cold, Natural Gas use absorption as its method of removing heat and producing cold. In a solar water system you just replaced the natural gas as the heat source but other wise retain the absorption system.

Side note: The Compression system rely on a Compressor to produce extra pressure so that the refrigerate is compressed from its Air State to a Liquid state. As it goes from it Air State to Liquid a huge amount of heat is produced. When the liquid is introduced into the refrigerator the liquid is permitted to expand back into a air form, in the process absorbing any heat around it. This produces the cold we find in Refrigerators

The Absorption system is described in Wikipedia as:
The absorption cooling cycle can be described in three phases:
Evaporation: A liquid refrigerant evaporates in a low partial pressure environment, thus extracting heat from its surroundings – the refrigerator.
Absorption: The gaseous refrigerant is absorbed – dissolved into another liquid - reducing its partial pressure in the evaporator and allowing more liquid to evaporate.
Regeneration: The refrigerant-laden liquid is heated, causing the refrigerant to evaporate out. It is then condensed through a heat exchanger to replenish the supply of liquid refrigerant in the evaporator.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator

Absorption is still popular in area where electricity is none existent or questionable AND in certain commercial use do to its lower cost (i.e. Natural Gas is cheaper then Electricity in most of the US).

Thus Solar Water heat can be used for a lot of things provided you can work around its limitations (i.e. will freeze up at the freezing point of water unless some other liquid is used under the solar panels and then that liquid is used to heat water stored elsewhere).

In more recent years the decrease price in solar panels have made the cost advantages of Solar Water heater less appealing, but it is still a very cost effective way to use Solar power.
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mikeburetta Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. absorption
thanks for the posts..I worked for years in a facility a 15 story high-rise that was cooled by an absorption machine a lithium bromide alcohol mix..energy conservation and wise stewardship of the resources we have is the way to go..give a hearty thanks to the men and women keeping apartments and office buildings comfortable..
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. You're ignoring the main point.
Most power is used very quickly once it is generated. It doesn't need to be stored. Peak use of energy is during the day. So putting solar on the grid would be a very good way to reduce the need for oil.

As for how electricity would be generated at night, there still isn't any need to jump to a conclusion that only oil works. Wind is being used in more places, and hydroelectric already has a long history of generating electricity for large portions of the nation. Oil could easily become a shrinking part of our energy production system.

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. I agree with you, just pointing out Solar greatest weakness
and if we ignore that weakness, it will be used against anyone who supports solar. We have to be ready to address it, including pointing out that it would require just a small adjustment for most people. I tried to address that need but the main thrust of my response was to point out Solar's greatest weakness AND how we can work around that weakness.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. Magnetic bearing flywheels are supposed to be the best.
Edited on Tue Nov-08-11 04:03 AM by Leopolds Ghost
And interestingly, involve many of the same technological issues that were being posed by that magnetic confinement Polywell fusion cell idea (alternative to the dreadful tokamak, another example of dead-end technology funded by corporations and the government as a feel-good tax write-off).

Another example of corporations deliberately controlling the market so they can keep the price of alternative means of transportation high, is the lock on rail mass transit construction in the US, and the insane amounts of price fixing and graft that have led to Americans calmly accepting multi-billion-dollar bills for the construction of a poorly designed surface transit line while Europe is building subways for half the cost.

The construction is always bidded out to the same firms, chiefly Bechtel and Bombardier.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
33. Moving closer to work and pantographs.
Wow awesome summary of energy issues, thanks.

It's surprising that telecommuting is still not a more accepted. There are so many jobs that could easily be done remotely, accounting, I.T., call center, all design jobs, etc. I'm kind of pissed that businesses are so narrow minded that they are just going to wait for the oil to run out before moving toward working from home.

I also think that roads can and should be converted to smart highways that can deliver the power to electric cars. I'm sure there is some efficient way it could be done (planting a conductive strip below the surface or on the side). The cars need to be designed so they can either utilize road power, or battery power when not on the grid.

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bongbong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
34. Compressed air
The two best technologies to store energy are flywheels (which you mentioned) and compressed air. There are cars made in France that use compressed air for power; they have a several-dozen mile range. Flywheels can store huge amounts of energy, but their failure mechanisms (bearing failure being the worst one) are more dangerous than compressed air.

Those are the two best ones that are practical right now. But there are also new ones like superconducting ring storage, using magnetic effects that are just now being understood.
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SoapBox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
14. K & R
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
21. kr
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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
22. k&r. . .
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kimsarah Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 03:43 AM
Response to Original message
23. Tell me fracking
Tell me fracking doesn't cause earthquakes
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
25. K&R! Awesome OP!
Way to go Mr. KRUGMAN!

I love this:

"the entire G.O.P., is deeply invested in an energy sector dominated by fossil fuels, and actively hostile to alternatives."
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
26. "Here comes the sun, if we’re willing to let it in."
If there was only a will.
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
27. Should is key
We should have been on the cusp of energy transformation 20 years ago.
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Magoo48 Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
29. Our system is fossilized in so many ways.
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bongbong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
30. History
1960: only Bell Labs & NASA cared about photovoltaic solar, although some Middle/Far East countries used solar water heating
1970: hippies started using more and more solar
1975: some hippies organized solar companies
1979: second oil crisis; conventional wisdom was "solar will be good in 20, 30 years, not now"
1980: last of the hippie-run solar companies bought by oil companies; R&D depts all fired
1985: conventional wisdom was "solar will be good in 20, 30 years, not now"
1990: conventional wisdom was "solar will be good in 20, 30 years, not now"
1995: conventional wisdom was "solar will be good in 20, 30 years, not now"
2000: conventional wisdom was "solar will be good in 20, 30 years, not now"
2005: conventional wisdom was "solar will be good in 20, 30 years, not now"
2010: conventional wisdom was "solar will be good in 20, 30 years, not now"
2011: conventional wisdom was "solar will be good in 20, 30 years, not now"


And that's the "Rest Of The Story" :-(
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
46. When I did research on Solar Power in the 1960s, Solar water heaters had been used since the 1940s
Florida, which has minimal access to natural Gas in the 1940s, 1950s etc, had a choice, either use electricity to heat hot water OR use Solar Water heaters. Given the high price of electricity and the amount of electricity needed to heat water, Solar Hot Water panels were very popular in Florida starting in the 1930s and continuing into the 1970s when I did my research.

Most of the Solar Water Panels were home made, just a glass encased set of copper pipes that the water ran through. In much of Florida such solar water Panels provided all the hot water you needed. Excess hot water was kept in Conventional hot water tanks. Cold water came into the house and part of the Cold water was diverted to the Solar Panel and only then to the hot water tank. The Hot water tank would keep the water hot during the night. Most had systems that required people to turn off water flow into the Solar Panel at night, so that unheated water did NOT enter the hot water tank. Since the hot water tank retain it electrical heating element, if the hot water temperature dropped below the preset level the electrical heating element kicked in.

Now, in my research in the 1970s I read articles that people had developed automatic systems to turn off the solar panels at night, mostly using a simple timing mechanism. i.e. at daylight the timer turned the value on as to the Solar Panel, at sunset the timer turned off the value.

Just pointing our Solar Water Panels were popular in the US by the 1930s, continued into the 1970s, time periods where you said they was none in the US.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. Duplicate
Edited on Tue Nov-08-11 03:30 PM by happyslug
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piratefish08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
35. i've met some pretty resourceful people who built their own panels from scratch
and rigged their own solar hot water heaters - not nearly as complicated as storing the energy for whole house powering.


plans are readily available on the internet.


with a wood assisted furnace and solar hot water heater they are off oil and cut their electric usage by about 2/3.


not off the grid, but close enough for a budget system.


we hope to set up a similar system in the spring.


the technology isn't off in the distant horizon - it's here now - it's just going to take a massive shift in thinking to get the ball rolling..............
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bongbong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. An acquaintance
An acquaintance of mine lives completely off the grid deep in the Rockies. She has a huge house, and the weather does get cold in the winter, but she's always warm with her sun-tracking photovoltaic panels. She has high speed internet via satellite dish. Completely civilized.
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piratefish08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. we're learning as we go - we recently moved to a rural area of VT - these people
know how to get shit done!
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matmar Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
41. How does an aircraft carrier run on solar power?
The MIC will not allow this to happen.
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Maineman Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Obviously, solar power would not be the only power source.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. But if frees up oil for use in the Aircraft in a Carrier, then the MIC will back it
The US retired its last non-nuclear carrier in 2007. At the time there was some concern that Japanese opposition to having a Nuclear Carrier based in Japan, but Japan did accept the basing of The USS George Washington starting in 2007. What will happen given Japan's nuclear debacle no one can say, but the US prior to 2007 always based a non-Nuclear Carrier in Japan do to the well known Japanese opposition to having a nuclear carriers in Japan.

Remember if the US used oil at the same rate per person as did Western Europe we would still be EXPORTING oil (The US was the Number #1 exporter of oil from 1859, when oil was first found to be obtain through drilling, till the 1950s, when the Persian Gulf started to beat out US oil exports, but the US was still the #1 producer of oil till the 1980s, long after the US was a new oil importer).


US Carrier deployments:

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=4200&tid=200&ct=4

List of All US Carriers, from the Langley, CV-1 to the new John F. Kennedy CVN-79 which is under construction (The old John F, Kennedy CV-67, the last non-nuclear carrier built, was decommissioned in 2007 and presently in the Reserve Fleet for possible donation):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_of_the_United_States_Navy
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Reptilublican Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
44. If the horse and buggy industry had lobbyist in the early 1900's
like the fossil fuel industry has today, there would be a lot of manure removal companies around.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
48. Thanks for posting.
Interesting.
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