"Is there anyone who thinks sexual harassment is a real thing?"

[TheWraith]

Truly, if I hadn't actually seen this at it's source in the National Review Online, I would have thought this was from The Onion.

Is there anyone who thinks sexual harassment is a real thing? Is there anyone who doesn’t know it’s all a lawyers’ ramp, like “racial discrimination“? You pay a girl a compliment nowadays, she runs off and gets lawyered up. Is this any way to live?

This isn't from an unassociated commentor--it's one of their fucking long-time columnists, John Derbyshire.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/282007/first-thing-we-do-john-derbyshire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Derbyshire

[seabeyond]

1. i have heard this so many times in the last week from so many different areas in life

which tells me there are a lot of men out there with the dismissive attitude toward abuse, harassment of women.

fighting hard from men to stand their ground

[redqueen]

2. I'm surprised that you're surprised.

He's only saying what millions of people (both men *and* women) think.

[TheWraith]

5. I'm surprised anyone so ignorant is willing to expose their ignorance in such blinding terms.

Let alone someone who claims to possess some kind of standing as a right wing "thinker."

[redqueen]

10. Well he sees Pat Buchanan getting away with it...

so why not just go all out and court the cro-magnon audience?

(With apologies to primitive humans.)

[trueblue2007]

51. is it a REAL thing? OH YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING. STUPID QUESTION

Of course it is A REAL THING. It is awful. the owner of a company expected me to have sex with him. I was 26 and NO!!! I was fired 3 days later.

It is as real as any other kind of discrimination. IT IS HORRIBLE

[polmaven]

3. Oh good grief!!

Does anyone think Republican "thought" is a real thing?

[Ship of Fools]

6. WHAT Republican *thought*? First time I've heard of it.

[barbtries]

4. "racial discrimination"

in quotes? who is this tool?!

[TheWraith]

7. Believe it or not, he's a published author of several books and NRO regular columnist.

Moreover, he's supposedly one of the "moderate" guys on the NRO team.

Yes, really. :crazy:

[barbtries]

12. thanks

no, he's a sexist, racist tool.

[eppur_se_muova]

32. I was absolutely shocked to realize this is the same guy who wrote "Prime Obsession" ...

and "Unknown Quantity".

How could someone be gifted with such clear thinking in mathematics and devoid of the most basic skills of judgement on moral issues?

[dtexdem]

8. Yes, and so is sexual assault, and so is rape.

And they are all illegal, and perpetrators should be prosecuted.

[reggie the dog]

9. i thought that making one comment would not constitute harassment

as in you can hit on a woman once to see if she is interested and if she is not and you drop it you didnt harras anyone, you just tried to see if someone of the opposite sex was interested in you.

[hughee99]

14. I thought that was the general rule...

unless, of course, the person you're hitting on works for you. Then it's pretty much always inappropriate. Even if you're not implying this will affect their job in any way, there's no way to be sure they don't assume that their job somehow depends on it.

[MedicalAdmin]

22. For harassment to be considered it must be a pattern.

Thus once is considered OK at least legally.

This rule doesn't apply if you are in a position of power over the person you are harassing and using that power to force compliance.

Here's a short definition and other links that might help a bit if this is happening to you or someone you know. http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

[hughee99]

28. I've had enough corporate training on this

but my understanding seems to be pretty much in line with the eeoc. I was unfortunately enough to have to take a full day sexual harassment course at a company I worked at during college, and then ever other year (for just about 2 hours) at the company I'm at now.

The company I was at in college had a BIG issue with sexual harassment (google Astra Pharmaceuticals harassment) and we were all required to take a full day training, though I can't say I got very much out of it. It all seemed to be pretty much common sense.

[MedicalAdmin]

37. And yet there are those who don't seem to get it...

... no matter how many classes they have to sit through.

Glad you find it boring. That's kinda the place you want to be at.

[hughee99]

40. There's people who just don't think the rules apply to them.

It all seemed pretty much common sense to me. Give that, at the time, I worked in an office after hours converting paper circuit diagrams to CAD, and my only interaction with anyone was to email my boss about what I did, it really seemed a waste of time to me. I had to skip a day of classes to go into work during normal work hours just for that.

[MedicalAdmin]

43. They had to do that because they had to prove that they ...

were actively doing something to avoid it in all the workforce. This leads me to believe that they had already settled several suits and that their liability insurance company gave them a choice of training EVERY employee of face huge premium increases.

Thus you got nailed. Look at it this way, it didn't hurt and the only way you could have avoided it would have been to be converted from patient to contractor.

[hughee99]

53. That's exactly what it was.

When your CEO is on the cover of Business Week with the heading "Abuse of Power", you know it's something that's going to have to be addressed company-wide, if for no other reason than appearances. The issue was specifically in top management and sales, but to CYA, you have to send everyone to the class. It was a painless class, although it seemed a little condescending, but how can they avoid that when they're talking not doing things that you already know you shouldn't do. I don't blame the instructors for that at all. Really, my only issue was that I had to skip all my college courses for the day to attend, and even that wasn't a big deal.

on edit: I was a temp at the time, and I was still required to go.

[reggie the dog]

25. it was the comment from the article saying

you say one compliment and she gets lawyered up (or some bs like that)


As a teacher at a university i am legally allowed to have sexual relations with my students which is kind of strange seeing as i grade them and they could feel it was something they had to do to pass the class so that would be cohearsed sex. As such i never hit on or flirt with my students. When they hit on me i me i just tell them that i cant do anything with a student as i grade them and would feel uncomfortable.

[seabeyond]

26. but...

isnt this in france where sexual harassment is really seen as nonexistent and merely boys being boys, dna, biology?

[reggie the dog]

34. thats not the case at any place i have ever worked at

granted i work in the public sector. as in the usa women feel compelled to have sex to get jobs or promotions, the poorer you are the worse it gets but that is just as shitty in the usa, sexual harassment is not socially acceptable for anyone i know personally but there are always assholes amongst the nice people.

also in all honestly i see that french women are truly sexually liberated. there is still progress to be made as far as getting more women in govt and ceo positions etc but our right wing president sarkozy nominated more women ministers than any other president in history and called for having an equal number of men and women and encouraging more women to participate in politics.

as far as flirting and sex go i see that french women love to flirt, seduce, have sex at a much high rate than in the usa ( i think because there aer hardly any christian fundementalists here, purity rings ect are unheard of,) sex is not a taboo nor are naked human bodies, they sell sex toys in convetional stores.

from what i see women dont mind flirting even if not interested, they take it as a compliment and politely refuse your advances so if you have any class you can change the conversation topic and just appreciate spending some time talking to someone.

also as sex is not a taboo or a religious no no ( 40 % of the people here are athiests more like 60% of the age group of women i go for 25 to 35.) and it is widely believed that having a "healthy" sex life is necessary for well being as a person, safe sex is fine, casual sex (at least for me) is far easier to find.

i have been talking to women before who have seen me flirt with numerous women, take another one home, and then flirt with her the next day and she just said "you are a little flirt" and kept flirting and left me with her phone number and email address. that kind of thing honestly never happend to me in the usa, perhaps it is my accent over here??

[noiretextatique]

42. "give me a blowjob" what if that was the one comment?

say for example that comment was uttered by a boss to a subordinate? would you consider that comment "just trying to see if someone was interested in you"? would that "one comment" qualify as sexual harassment? if you've had sexual harassment training...

[reggie the dog]

45. i know that as someone who teaches at a university

that it is not normal to have sexual relations with students in my classes because i give them grades and thus they could perceive any refusal on their part as putting their grade in jeopardy, even when the women hit on me i just brush it off. i was responding to the comment that the journalist wrote saying that you make one compliment and the woman gets lawyered up, not to the situation of cain, cain should not hit on someone working for him as they may fear that refusal will lead to getting fired.

"give me a blowjob" is generally reserved for people i am already in a relationship with so i think it would just be rude to say that to someone i have not alread had sex with multiple times. now saying to someone "what do you say we get out of here, go back to my place, and make wild passionate love to each other" in my opinion is fine so long as they are not working for you or one of your students.

[noiretextatique]

46. and i was saying: asking someone for a blowjob

is not a compliment, if uttered by someone in power over the women. i think we are in agreement about that.
by reducing sexual harassment to "giving compliments" the author is trying (and very unsuccessfully) to minimize the problem.
he does the same with racism.

[reggie the dog]

49. hell, asking for a blowjob from someone i am not in a relationship

is not a compliment, it is just rude, hell even in a realationship it is not always appropriate.

[Odin2005]

11. I'm sure this asshole thinks all the ladies love his "compliments".

:puke:

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

15. I think it's just the shock of it all.

I posted a John Stossel piece earlier because I was frankly flabbergasted at the unbelievable stupidity of it.

[TheWraith]

18. Actually, I saw it on Facebook, via someone from the DSCC.

And there's plenty other far worse bullshit brought onto DU than to have an accurate understanding of who the other side actually is.

[Swede]

16. John Derbyshire is an ass. He looks like an ass.

[left coaster]

17. Ah, the National Review. No wonder. nt

[Avalux]

19. I was sexually harrassed - no...assaulted - years ago.

I was young and worked as a research contractor in an army hospital at the time. One of the active duty guys that worked in my area took a liking to me. One day I was sitting in my office when he came in to say hello. Next thing I know, he's behind my chair, practically pinning me against my desk and starts licking my ear and saying how much he'd like to get me alone.

I can't even explain what went through my mind....but I reacted by pulling away and pushing my chair back as far as I could. Then I told him to get out. He did and I sat there shaking, didn't know what to do next.

I reported the incident, as I should have. It took weeks of hell and being treated as if I had encouraged him (as if it was my fault) but eventually he was reassigned and I never say him again.

Any woman who speaks up when sexually harrassed or abused should be prepared for the invitable backlash from idiots like this guy, and I can understand why some wouldn't want to come out publicly. For those who do, they're brave.

[Thav]

20. There's a big difference between a compliment and harassment.

If you were a woman which one would you rather hear:

"That blouse looks nice on you."

or

"Nice tits, can I take a shit on them?"

Seriously people, do we need to have classes on being a decent human being? Common sense is stone dead, and critical thinking is in its death throes, I guess being a decent human being has developed a bad cough.

[seabeyond]

23. right on. i am not gettin all the people not gettin. i have had men compliment, ask out. want to

fuck? give me a bj? not going to fly. even the first time.

want to go out for drinks, dinner.... never is harassment.

why are so many pretending it is a mere compliment that is the issue? oh, i know, to dismiss the real issue

stupid

[lapislzi]

29. OK, I admit it, I am gorgeous...

(JOKE!)

but I really don't want my appearance commented on beyond, "oh, did you get a haircut? Looks nice," or "that color suits you."

If I'm asked out by a man (who would have to be blind not to see my wedding ring), I will thank him politely for his interest and tell him that I'm married.

No harm, no foul.

Anything beyond that will engender anything from a snarky retort to a "go fuck yourself, asshole."

Edited for clarity.

[seabeyond]

31. i hear you on that. i dont much either. i dont need assurance from any stranger or coworker

about my looks. i probably sit right where you do in this. i will say the same to a man, if what he put on looked particularly good. i say it to boys and hubby. especially a color that works well.

but yes, i dont want some man telling me to smile. and i dont really want a coworker or boss to care about my looks.

[reggie the dog]

48. i try to chat up women first

then compliment them on their wit, insights, intellegence, now once i am going out with a woman and i notice that she puts on nice clothes and combs her hair up special to go out to dinner or a party with me then i will compliment her plenty on her looks...

[reggie the dog]

47. i was trying to point out the idocy of the claim that a compliment

would be cause for a sexual harassment charge.

[seabeyond]

50. i agree. nt

[MedicalAdmin]

21. Translation: "I've been sued and settled dozens of times.

And it's past time that this shit stops. What is wrong with getting a little BJ or sex for a career "favor?""

This dude is projecting like crazy.

[lapislzi]

24. "You look nice today" vs "Nice rack!"

I enjoy receiving compliments, as do most people, I think. Although I would rather be complimented for a great idea, or for my organizational skills, I am not above a flush of pleasure when complimented on my appearance. There are polite ways to compliment a person's appearance without sexually harassing or embarrassing them. This varies from person to person. Some people don't wish to have their appearances commented on in any way. OK. If they communicate that to me, I will make a mental note not to notice when they've had a haircut or are wearing a nice outfit. I can certainly find other good qualities in a person to demonstrate my esteem.

I was the subject of what I considered mild harassment several years ago. Others might consider it more extreme. When being "coached" for a sales presentation by our then very old-school sales manager, he suggested (rather lewdly) that I wear a tight, low-cut sweater because buyers might appreciate that. I didn't. I was annoyed and told him so and that was the end of the matter.

My point is, if you know something offends someone, DON'T FUCKING DO IT! No matter how innocuous you think your comment might be, someone may very well not see it that way.

What is so hard about that?

Oh, I forgot. Republicans are just fucking dense. Wonder how they'd feel if someone said "hey, nice package!"

[Javaman]

27. I can only imagine the skeletons this fucking halfwit has in his closet. nt

[TroglodyteScholar]

30. "...a girl..."

This tells us all exactly how Derbyshire feels about women.

[treestar]

33. Heck I've seen it here

People wishing for the days when they were "harassed."

It's just not the same thing and that kind of remark kind of trivializes harassment.

[JDPriestly]

35. Putting your hand up the skirt of a female job applicant is not a compliment.

[GoCubsGo]

36. To be expected from the fuckwit who said that Chelsea Clinton should be exterminated.

"I hate Chelsea Clinton," John Derbyshire declares in his Feb. 15 column. He admits at first that he doesn't have a clear reason for doing so, but one certainly emerges: She's a Clinton -- more specifically, "the vile genetic inheritance of Bill and Hillary Clinton."

And the only genuine solution for dealing with this situation, Derbyshire writes, is death:

"Chelsea is a Clinton. She bears the taint; and though not prosecutable in law, in custom and nature the taint cannot be ignored. All the great despotisms of the past — I'm not arguing for despotism as a principle, but they sure knew how to deal with potential trouble — recognized that the families of objectionable citizens were a continuing threat. In Stalin's penal code it was a crime to be the wife or child of an "enemy of the people". The Nazis used the same principle, which they called Sippenhaft, "clan liability". In Imperial China, enemies of the state were punished "to the ninth degree": that is, everyone in the offender's own generation would be killed, and everyone related via four generations up, to the great-great-grandparents, and four generations down, to the great-great-grandchildren, would also be killed."

http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2001/update022301.html

What a lovely man.

[JoeyT]

38. It's not that conservatives don't believe power imbalances exist.

It's that they think they're a good thing. Mostly because they're miserable excuses for human beings.

[lunatica]

39. He's a man, so it figures

Some men who've had to deal with sexual harassment ought to take him aside and enlighten him.

[noiretextatique]

41. this from a conservative privileged white american man

aka the most clueless creature on earth

[Matariki]

44. This asshat thinks "racial discrimination" is a "lawyers' ramp"???

Wonder what it's like to live with your head up your ass and only able to see your own digested lunch?

[Taverner]

52. (((facepalm)))

Speechless, really

[KamaAina]

54. John Derbyshire actually inspired an award for racist/homophobic fuckwaddery

from Andrew Sullivan, would you believe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Sullivan#Blogging

Sullivan gives out "awards" each year on various public statements that parody those of people the awards are named after. Throughout the year, "nominees" for these awards are mentioned in various blog posts. The readers of his blog vote the "winner" at the end of the year. These awards include:

the Hugh Hewitt Award, introduced in June 2008 and named after a man Sullivan describes as an 'absurd partisan fanatic', is for the most egregious attempts to label 2008 Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama as un-American, alien, treasonous, and far out of the mainstream of American life and politics.

the John Derbyshire Award is for egregious and outlandish comments on gays, women, and minorities....