Thinking about the Penn State child rape case:

[MineralMan]

What I don't understand, among other things, is why the witness to this Sandusky animal raping a young boy did not physically end the situation immediately on witnessing it. The witness was an athlete himself, and should have been able to put an end to the rape and inflict some serious damage on the rapist, perhaps to the extent of rendering him unconscious long enough to be tied up for the police, whom I would have called at once after beating the crap of the rapist and making sure that the victim was separated from the scene.

That's what I don't understand about this whole thing. What was that graduate student thinking? Was it an excess of "team loyalty" that prevented him from doing what anyone would do under the same circumstances? If so, then I condemn a culture that would enable such a thing. I've never been a big fan of team sports, in large part for that very reason. It seems as though we hear stories like this at all levels of athletics. Perhaps we need to re-examine ethics a bit when it comes to athletic teams and make very certain that everyone involved understands what the "right thing to do" is in a circumstance like this.

As far as I'm concerned, everyone who knew about this from the day it happened until today should be summarily dismissed and prosecuted, if possible. Everyone.

[Lars39]

1. Possibility the judgement was skewed if he himself had been a victim at one point.

[WinkyDink]

7. Go on, get outta here. There is no indication of any of this whatsoever.

[Lars39]

14. Not yet, possibly never will be, but that *could* be one of the reasons

the witness was not more proactive in reporting the crime.

[EFerrari]

38. When you witness a trauma, you yourself also become traumatized

to a degree.

[arcane1]

2. I'm guessing "team loyalty" is exactly it n/t

[RainDog]

37. "team loyalty" or player is another term for maintaining power structures

the reason they're loyal is because the power they oppose seems to have too much protection.

[ceile]

3. I was wondering the same thing.

Why didn't he stop it? Or call the police immediately?

[PoliticAverse]

4. It's clear that there are some people that think different than you and I...

because I find it hard to understand why he didn't stop it or insist that the police be called.

[RobinA]

45. Either That

or some people act in real life differently than you think (hope)you would act when imagining yourself in the situation that they actually found themselves.

[WinkyDink]

5. It is going to happen. See the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sports/ncaafootball/penn-state-said-to-be-planning-paternos-exit.html?_r=1&hp

Joe Paterno’s tenure as coach of the Penn State football team will soon be over, perhaps within days or weeks, in the wake of a sex-abuse scandal that has implicated university officials, according to two people briefed on conversations among the university’s top officials.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

McQueary, the witness, must have come clean with the GJ in exchange for immunity. He will never work a sideline again, at least not at PSU, and even if he does, he will ALWAYS be known AS A MORAL COWARD WHO SACRIFICED A YOUNG BOY'S SAFETY JUST TO MAKE IT IN THE PENN STATE SYSTEM.

[MineralMan]

13. Yes, perhaps, but that still doesn't answer my question about

why the witness did not act at once to end the abuse. That's the thing I cannot understand, and any system that allows such inaction needs to be overhauled completely. The entire system. If I were in charge of Penn State, the football program would be shut down, then begun again next year, with an entirely new staff who agreed that "team loyalty" cannot override social ethics. That's what I would do. Of course, I'm not in charge, so I can't do that.

[OneGrassRoot]

6. These systems with those in authority controlling so many lives to extreme degrees...

ALL need to be re-examined, imho.

I agree with you, MineralMan.

Whether it's child sexual abuse being perpetuated by pedophiles in nonprofit organizations, schools, churches, etc., there is a pattern of coverups (paying others to stay silent), the authorities not following through, and a general bowing down to those in esteemed positions.

Same thing with sexual harassment.

It's a society that rewards and idolizes those in power and those with wealth (usually one and the same), and they use it too often to cover up crimes.

And too many people remain silent about it, while lives are shattered.

:puke:

[RobinA]

47. Same With

Ford Pinto gas tanks and a long line of similar malfeasance going back to the time the first cave boss realized he could gain by keeping his mouth shut. It was always thus.

[Fumesucker]

8. The Milgram experiment shows clearly that peoples' sense of ethics is warped by authority figures..

Sandusky was an authority figure to the GA, we are trained our entire lives from birth to defer to authority figures and for a great many of us it's exceedingly difficult to break that early training when confronted with a situation of an authority figure doing something despicable.

This man is going to be getting death threats, not because he walked away but because he spoke up.

I'm reminded of what happened to Jan Kemp..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Kemp

[MineralMan]

11. My father was my authority figure. Nobody else ever exceeded

his influence. I can absolutely guarantee that he'd do just what I said, even at age 87, as he is today. He would immediately step in and end the abuse. That's how he taught me to be in life. No other authority figure has the power to take away my ethical principles. That was my early training, and it's stood me in good stead all my life.

[Fumesucker]

17. You're not a team player..

If you were it's unlikely you would have been mostly self employed in your life.

I'm not a team player either.

Just the fact that we're suspicious of athletic programs puts us outside the mainstream of American thought

[MineralMan]

I can be a team player, but only if I approve of the team members.

That's why I've been self-employed most of my life, as you say. However, I often work as part of a team in what I do. I have also stopped working as part of teams that didn't follow ethical rules.

[Bill McBlueState]

12. yup

and the Milgram experiment also showed that everyone is pretty sure they'd behave differently in that situation, evidence be damned.

[MineralMan]

16. Many people would behave differently.

I count such people among my friends. A strong sense of ethics is a requirement. It should be second nature to everyone.

[Bill McBlueState]

that's what I'm saying.

Everyone *thinks* he'd behave differently. Nobody goes around saying, "I would be an accessory to child rape, given the opportunity."

[Fumesucker]

26. Everyone thinks they would act differently..

We are all the hero in our own story.

As for me, I wouldn't be a member of any team that would have me. h/t Groucho

[Fumesucker]

20. "Hitler's Willing Executioners" showed the same thing..

Otherwise "normal" people will do horrendous things even when they don't have to if an authority figure encourages them to do so.

[LynneSin]

9. The least he could have done was to stop the act and pull the child away from Sandusky

I guess I'm just a non-violent type and trust me I hold no judgement to those that would have beat the shit out of Sandusky. But for me I would have pulled the kid out of there immediately and perhaps put the kid in an office someplace safe with a towel or shirt to cover himself up. Then I would call the police. And yes I would have called Paterno too but out of respect that Paterno didn't know anything about what was happening and would want to be aware of it before the story hits the press.

[Brickbat]

10. It's not just athletics; it's the same dynamic that makes this happen in the Catholic church.

I cannot imagine my reaction if I saw a beloved authority figure sexually assaulting a child. I hope I would be strong enough to do something about it right then; I can't imagine the shock. If the 10-year-old was large and looked more like 14 or 15 (or the witness convinced himself of that, either at the time or later), wasn't struggling or saying "no," and wasn't crying, I can see someone convincing himself it wasn't maybe as bad as all that.

[LynneSin]

18. in a way that's why I'm not bothered he told Paterno first

But bothered that he then did nothing when Paterno and the higher-ups choose to do nothing.

[Brickbat]

21. Yeah, it doesn't suprirse me that that's where he went. And I agree -- what's disappointing is the

total lack of action after it all.

[LynneSin]

23. If I witnessed that act and nothing was done - that vision would haunt me for life

I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing I did nothing.

[MineralMan]

24. That's because you have a well-developed sense of ethics.

Thank goodness there are people like that around. Unfortunately, there aren't enough of them.

[Brickbat]

25. Which is why I'm guessing some kind of rationalizing kicked in -- he downplayed it when he reported

it, told himself the kid wasn't crying or struggling (or highlighted that fact to himself), and so on -- and after all, if he reported it and nothing was done, it would be easy to surmise that there must have been an explanation for it, and that he misunderstood what he saw, or that the perp was punished in a way he hadn't heard about. People are great at rationalizing, unfortunately.

[fishwax]

15. many people think they would react that way, but most people actually don't

One shouldn't underestimate the shock of walking in on that, compounded by the fact that the perpetrator is someone McQueary (who grew up in State College and had been on the PSU football team in the 90s and was the starting QB in his senior year) had known/known of since he was a kid--not just as an authority figure, but as one of the most admired and respected people in town. It had to be disorienting, to say the least.

But while I can understand, on some level, his initial reaction, I can't understand his keeping quiet for all these years. I can't understand staying with the organization that obviously did nothing with the information he gave them. I can't understand his never following up with the police directly.

[MineralMan]

22. Well, I have reacted that way in my life more than once.

I would have reacted that way in the Penn State situation. I will not ignore physical abuse of another person, particularly one too weak to fight back. It's just not in my nature to do that. If others do not react that way, then I question their ethics. There should be only one response to a grown man raping a young person. The rape must be stopped.

The basic concept, in childish terms is, "Here, pick on someone your own size." It's basic.

[fishwax]

28. I have too.

None of the situations I've ever had to deal with, thankfully, were as horrific as the rape of a 10-year-old.

[MineralMan]

29. Nor for me. Bad enough, but not that bad.

I don't like to even think about such a situation, and hope I never encounter anything like it.

[lapislzi]

19. We will probably never know

what went on in that kid's head that night. Some people's first instinct is just to flee.

Was it team loyalty? Was he afraid of being singled out for rough treatment? Was he just scared?

We'll never know.

[MineralMan]

27. He knows. Yes, he does.

Whatever his reasons, I hope his inaction haunts him all his life. I truly do. Same for Paterno, but I doubt he's thought about it a handful of times. Perhaps he'll start now.

[alcibiades_mystery]

52. Kid? He was a 28 year old man

[robdogbucky]

30. People can puff and strut and preen that "they," would have stopped him....

But until and unless you were in McQueary's shoes, you can't say. He had gone through the program, with Paterno and Sandusky being the most powerful men in town and father figures to all the countless players that went through there.

This story should not be about McQueary. Its what the Paterno and company did after getting the information from McQueary that is the story.

Someone on my football board described it thus:



"...As much as I'd like to think I'd be the hero and report a guy like Sandusky as soon as I saw one of his heinous acts... I know myself well enough to think I might weigh the possibilities and do what McQueary did and go through the chain of command instead of outside of it.

Let's be honest, when you are accusing a publicly beloved figure like Sandusky, you are made out to be the bad guy if there isn't enough evidence for anything to stick. You, the reporter, can end up with a ruined life just by messing with an extremely powerful evil person. A guy like Sandusky probably has enough connections to absolutely crush you and ruin your life and maybe your family's life if you don't have all your ducks in a row. I wonder if a guy like McQueary could see his future potentially crushed simply by trying to do the right thing. He sort of half-assed did the right thing, but not completely. I truly could see why he would do it that way if he feared his own life might end up worse than those kids that were being raped.

I'm not necessarily defending it, I'm just saying I could easily see why someone would be very very afraid to confront a powerful evil guy like Sandusky. Once you touch that evil, you get the full brunt of its energy directed right towards you, and that's tough for most people to deal with..."


A lot of people just couldn't get their head around an idol, a mentor, a coach and pillar of that small, insular PSU football community, doing what their eyes were telling them when looking at it. But those are often the positions of power that pedophiles exploit for their jollies. They don't get better, there is no cure and they can't stop themselves. Truly an evil that stalks the earth.



Or as someone with a more cynical sense of humor put it:

"Sandusky was just recruiting tight ends. Nothing to see here."



What's the big deal?

Signed: The Catholic Church




I don't know what I would have done, and I can't put myself in McQueary's shoes. Others witnessed the shower incident and other Sandusky incidents, like the janitor described in the indictment, and did not call the cops or try to physically stop Sandusky. I mean, Sandusky had his charity kids on campus after he was retired and after he had been "banned," from the football facilities, many many folks must have had some knowledge and chose not to do anything about this powerful man. After all, if the venerable JoePa did nothing, then it must be alright, no? Isn't that how cults and cult worship works?



We have seen plenty of cult worship and attendant denial around here haven't we?

[Fumesucker]

31. There's no doubt in my mind that McQueary is going to get death threats..

If he hasn't already gotten them.

And the death threats will be because he spoke out, not because he walked away.

[LynneSin]

33. +1

nuff said.

[LynneSin]

32. If it was any other crime I would buy into that theory

I really would. I am even ok that McQueary went to Paterno first instead of the police. But eventually McQueary should have forced them to go to the police. This wasn't steroid use or some petty crime - this was a minor being abused in the most vile way imaginable!

But how does one deal with the vision that they saw a grown adult have sex with a 10 year old and not have taken this to the police - that would be a vision that would haunt me for life unless I knew in my heart that I had done right by the child and reported this to the police.

At some point McQueary had to realize that the police would never be involved. It wasn't like this was a semester intern job he was doing - the guy ended up accepting a coaching job with the team, the same personal that swept this mess under the carpet and did nothing was the people that hired him as a coach. And he took that job knowing that no police was ever involved with bringing to justice the man who raped an underage child.

[MineralMan]

39. And some people know what they would have done.

I know myself and my own history. I know what I would have done. I don't care whether anyone believes me or not. It's not a requirement.

[robdogbucky]

34. Has it been mentioned in this thread that the local DA in 2002?

He disappeared and was later declared dead?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Gricar


Ray Frank Gricar (pronounced /ˈɡriːkɑr/; born October 9, 1945, missing April 15, 2005, declared legally dead July 25, 2011) is a missing person from Bellefonte, Pennsylvania, United States. At the time of his disappearance on April 15, 2005, he was the district attorney of Centre County, a post he had held since 1985 and which he had been planning to retire from later that year.

Born in Cleveland, Ohio, Gricar received his Juris Doctor degree from Case Western Reserve University School of Law and began his career as a prosecutor for Cuyahoga County. He moved to State College, Pennsylvania c. 1980 and after a brief stint as an assistant district attorney, Gricar was elected district attorney of Centre County in 1985. He was re-elected four times before announcing that he would not run for re-election in the 2005 campaign.

Gricar was reported missing to authorities after failing to return home from a road trip. His car was found in Lewisburg with his cell phone inside, and his laptop computer was found in the adjacent Susquehanna River; other than that, very little trace of Gricar has been found. After being missing for over six years with no trace of his whereabouts, Centre County authorities declared Gricar legally dead on July 25, 2011.

[RainDog]

35. power

women have known about this dynamic for a long time.

and denial...this "virtuous" person couldn't actually be someone who is exploiting children who are already at risk because of their circumstances.

I mean, that would make this person a low-down scum - it would upset the power structure.

and that's why things like this are allowed to happen to children... and to women.

[RobinA]

48. I Think the Reasoning

is: Only low down scum do that. Mr. Sandusky is not lowdown scum. Therefore, he's not really doing that.

I see this all the time in my field: Alcoholics are lowdown scum. I am not lowdown scum. therefore, I am not an alcoholic.

[joeybee12]

36. You're assuming he didn't...I did read anywhere where he did or didn't...nt

[MineralMan]

40. Yes, I am assuming that. Nobody was arrested at the time.

I don't find any reports of the rapist being hospitalized, either. So, yes, I'm assuming that nothing effective was done.

[fishwax]

42. according to the grand jury report, he left immediately

"The graduate assistant was shocked but noticed that both Victim 2 and Sandusky saw him. The graduate student left immediately, distraught."

[JohnnyLib2]

41. Ugly parts of human nature are brought to light.

Some of the dynamics are similar to incest and other forms of abuse..... difficult for those who encounter it AFTER the fact, let alone on the spot.

[RobinA]

49. Absolutely

Does anyone but me agonize over whether to call 911 in situations where you don't know for sure what is going on? Or you are having trouble processing what is going on, as was probably the case with grad assistant and janitor?

What if I'm wrong? What is really happening? Am I interpreting what I am seeing correctly? What if I am making a big mistake? Could I get someone in trouble who doesn't deserve to be in trouble? Will somebody make fun of me? Calling authorities has been shownn to not be as easy for many people as one might expect.

[davsand]

43. I can't ignore/abide victimization--no matter the target.

I've thought about this same point, MineralMan. No matter if that kid was 15 or 5, it is still a person of authority doing something that is clearly nor moral or ethical. I suppose some folks would/could rationalize it by thinking that a teen is capable of making their own decisions, but I honestly can't view it that way (maybe it is cause I have a 14 year old daughter.) I would have to intervene, even if it was to my own detriment. For those who think I am too reactionary, or "not a team player" please consider that even the law, in its infinite wisdom, sees that power imbalance as being an issue otherwise there would not be laws on the books regarding "statutory rape" or "age of consent."

That child was a victim. The adults who knew and did nothing about it not only broke the law, but they did something even worse, in my opinion, they let that kid down by allowing him to be victimized.


Laura

[MineralMan]

51. Thanks for your comment.

Some things truly are binary. They really are.

[RobinA]

44. It Has Nothing

to do with team loyalty. It's the hierarchy and it exists in almost all organizations. This guy was a grad assistant, i.e. nobody. Same with the janitors. Sandusky, although he was technically gone from PSU by then, was emeritus second in command. Very few people will bite the hand that feeds them to help someone else, especially some one they do not know. I wonder how many of the current pitchfork bearers would (or have) acted any differently.

[robdogbucky]

46. McQueary = another cult victim, MM = Puffery n/t

[MineralMan]

50. Thanks for your thoughtful analysis.

Really...

About some things there is no middle ground. You either act or are complicit. I would act in this situation. It is that simple. You can do as you see fit.