parents of AP students

[seabeyond]

i am curious how students are going thru their high school years taking their Pre AP and AP courses. i am finding after a year and half into high school, my son is having to drop to the normal classes in math; but, he is still taking AP and pre AP courses in science, english and history. i am thinking about pulling him out of the Pre Ap in science, too, after this year of chemistry. he really excels in languages and social science.

how did your children go thru the courses.

[TwilightGardener]

1. Neither of my kids are taking AP courses--I took them and found them to be

worthless (even though more challenging) in terms of college. My advice to them was to get as good grades as possible in regular classes.

[seabeyond]

8. that is what his cross country coach said this year, but he has a toe in it. college prep i read

recently said take the harder course with the lower grade.

[TwilightGardener]

17. I took AP English and History, got college credit for neither from the exams--

some of my friends were fellow AP geeks, some weren't--but it all ended up being a wash later, just depended on what one's plans were for college and career. If your son wants to get into a top rated school or to get into a competetive field, I think AP is helpful, since he will be compared to other kids who take AP courses (and it does show a willingness to be challenged and work harder). If he's planning to go to regular old State U...I don't know if it matters a great deal. It didn't in my case.

[seabeyond]

30. freshman yr son got a college credit in history. likin that. but i hear you.

it has always been relatively easy for him and not too much effort for any of the classes. even math, that is really really hard for him (so he says) was a high b, low a. lol. just this last yr with chemistry and algebra 2 has been hard. i dont see a reason. he does cross country and track... morning and evening practice, weekend meets. good grades (except this c). he is going to have to get a part time job to pay for gas, ect....

i agree with you. he took an psat and got 1750 his sophmore yr. that is college level.

thanks twilight.

[SoCalDem]

38. My youngest was a jock and did not have time for AP chem, so he took it at UCR

during the summer.. His friends thought he was nuts to "waste his summer" going to college summer school, but he got up every morning, took the bus ride to Riverside & spent most of the day in chem class/lab/studying.. I don't know if that's even allowed now (this was a while back) but it worked for him.. That one class cost a fortune though.. With books & labs I think it came in around $1200.00 (1996 dollars)

[JVS]

43. Does your district weight AP courses?

[seabeyond]

47. ?. help me out jvs. i am not sure what you are talking about.

they do give an extra 5 points per AD course taken that is added to the gpa.

[JVS]

51. Ok, that's what I mean.

Or in my area we had a 4.0 scale, but an A in AP was worth 5, a B 4, C=3, although I don't recall what D was and failing was still zero.

One of the things from my own experience having taken AP and then seeing how things are done in college is that the AP high school math course allows the learning to happen daily in a relatively uncrowded environment. The material taught in calc will appear in other science courses, particularly in Physics. If at all possible, I'd recommend that a student tough it out and learn it in the HS environment in which daily learning and being able to ask the teacher questions frequently helps with the task, because college calc students are usually left to their own devices.

[seabeyond]

53. thanks. i am glad i had this thread to listen to people. posters telling me sons choice

yes and no, but the purpose of the thread was to listen to others and what they had to say on the manner. doesnt hurt. what a parent does. i have gotten into a better place with this today, after listening to all that benefits son. a good thing about du

i had forgotten about that. we dont see it on the grade. it is added later. i talk to son this morning and he assured me it does raise the grade.

these courses really are much harder. i see the good they do. everything is generally so easy for son. to have a class that really challenges is excellent for him to learn what is needed in order to stay on top of it. i think the biggest chock for him, was he didnt get buy with a little studying for semester test, like he always does. has been a good experience. next year he has pre calc and physics i believe. i wonder if he wants to take the same year with what you say.

appreciate it. thanks

[Zywiec]

28. My kid got 19 credits from Penn State for a 5 on AP German

They certainly are not worthless in terms of college. She was already more than half way completed in her German minor before even starting her freshmen year.

Here is how one school handles the "worthless" AP courses:

http://admissions.psu.edu/academics/credit/ap/


edited to add Penn State link

[mcar]

2. 2 AP courses

but they were the only ones available at DS's high school at the time. He would have taken more if they'd been offered.

My upcoming HSer will have many more options available to him, as well as an IB school. However, I've been told that schools are now putting so many kids into the AP courses that they're being watered down.

[seabeyond]

15. these are tough courses, what i am seeing.

but i can also see it ending up what you say, too.

[Warpy]

3. They only started to offer AP classes my last year of high school

and the same 18 other geeks and I marched in lockstep from class to class, taking all AP classes.

[seabeyond]

16. same 18 other geeks ... ha ha. lol. nt

[mimitabby]

4. in my kids' school

if you wanted to learn something you were better off with AP classes. One of my sons was a bit lazy and he opted out of AP for a couple classes and found himself in bedlam. Tired unhappy teachers and noisy, inattentive (that's being nice) students.

[seabeyond]

9. that is what we have found. nt

[PBS Poll-435]

Got a grade of 71% in AP Gov't / Got a 5 on the test

:D

[seabeyond]

12. ah, yea. that is fun when you accomplish that. good for you. nt

[T Wolf]

5. Cannot really remember the details. Do know the quality of the teaching varies widely

and is not necessarily correlated with the overall quality of the school.

Unfortunately, many parents see it as a status thing as well as a way to boost their kid's GPA, so they pressure schools to allow their little darlings into classes that they may not really qualify for.

My daughters took them, but never scored high enough on the tests to get the college credits. So, I am not sure whether we made a mistake putting them into those classes.

Like everything in education (hell, like everything in everything), it really depends on the specific individuals involved.

I would say, investigate. talk to parents and teachers. Talk to you son. It is perfectly OK to not take a full AP load but concentrate on those courses he likes and excels at. That is what it was originally supposed to be.

[seabeyond]

11. freshman year he took the college test for his human geography and passed. we LOVED it. was

so much fun. i am definitely gonna allow math to be regular class, and haven't decided on science. he got his first ever "c" in chemistry this semester. i think it has been a good lesson on how much he did NOT study, and put that extra effort. will see. but what i am doing, listening to others.

[tammywammy]

6. I dropped out of AP English

It was worthless in my eyes, more memorization less actual knowledge. I was happy when I dropped to regular English. I took AP US History, Government and Economics, but I never tried to test out of those classes at college. I enjoyed the classes I did take that were AP, and I didn't find them any more challenging than I would have expected of a class in general. Also I would say while I enjoyed them in high school, those are important classes to also take in college, and I'm glad I did.

I never attempted AP math or science classes.

[seabeyond]

13. thanks tammy.

good stuff.

[gkhouston]

40. That's funny, because the year I took AP classes, it was just the opposite.

I attended three different high schools (we moved a lot), and only one offered advanced classes. We had less rote work, which was great. At the others, I mostly watched the paint dry, although there were a handful of good teachers who did their best to keep me engaged.

on edit: as for the OP, if you think your son would be happier in the regular track classes, screw the AP stuff. He will learn best at his own level and his own pace, not when he's stressed out or bored. I've got a 4th-grader who's swimming like a fish in the G/T program, for the moment, and gets bored at times. If that changes and I perceive that she's struggling and it's more than a transient difficulty, I'm not going to have any qualms about moving her into a different program. I don't give a crap about the G/T label. I think she's severely gifted and likely to stay that way, but if that's not the case, so the fuck what? It's more important that she be happy, well-adjusted, and learn to make the best use of the abilities she has.

[City Lights]

7. I have two kids who are taking different paths.

My eldest took AP Physics B and Pre-Calculus BC junior year, and AP Physics C, AP Chemistry, AP Calculus BC, AP Stats, and AP Micro/Macro Economics senior year. No AP English or History.

My youngest is currently a junior and is taking AP Physics B, AP English Language and Composition, and AP History. Senior year has yet to be planned.

FWIW, my eldest just finished her first trimester of college and, thanks to her AP credits, is now considered a sophomore.

[seabeyond]

18. isnt that so funny. lol. wow.

both my boys excel in the same subjects. opposite every other way though

[AngryAmish]

10. Didn't have AP classes at my hgh school

My wife had at hers. Was able to get so many AP credits she got a double major in three years of college.

But I drank a whole lot more beer.

[frazzled]

14. Perhaps let your son make the decision about what to take?

I can't remember exactly what my kids took: my son definitely took AP Calculus, Stats, Chemistry, etc. (he was a math/science guy). And I think French and U.S. History. It was enough for him to be able to complete college in 3 years because he'd earned enough credit. He's not sure he should have done that, in retrospect, but it did save a lot of money.

My daughter went to high school in another state, before we moved, and instead of AP she took International Baccalaureate courses (and got her IB diploma). It was an IB school. She was the opposite of my son: all language and writing and history, while math and science were hard for her. All in all, I felt the IB courses were more sophisticated than AP, and more valuable. Both are viewed equivalently by colleges.

But I say your son should decide because it is his education, after all. If he enjoys it, you shouldn't worry about grades. If he hates the classes, he shouldn't be made to take them. Despite what everyone tells you, grades are not the end-all of college acceptance (unless you are truly getting failing grades), if that is what you are worried about.

I'm so glad I don't have to worry about all this sort of stuff anymore.

[pnwmom]

27. Excellent idea! n/t

[seabeyond]

29. this is an odd kinda house. we gather info, and discuss, lol.

i preferred the IB too, but wasnt offered in my sons school. i felt that would fit him better, where he excels.

i wanted to hear from others. their experiences, how they felt, results. appreciate the info

[frazzled]

34. I'm sure you guys do ...

It just made it sound like it was your decision in the OP: I'm sure you'll all discuss what's best together. And whatever the decision, I'm sure it will be the right one!

I can safely say this from the distance of having my kids pretty much grown (mid to late twenties now, though you still always worry about them): whatever we tried to do to help them, and whatever decisions they'd made, they'd probably pretty much be the same people today. Enjoy your son while he's still home! (If that's entirely possible: my teenage son stayed in his room pretty much the last few years of high school, coming down only for dinner. He's more fun now!)

[seabeyond]

35. it is and it isnt.

he was in AP algebra 2. he wasnt getting a good grade and not aquiring the knowledge. got him a tutor and he still was not getting a grasp. told him, no sense in strugglin so, get into a regular class. he stayed in that class another month because it was a challenge and he wanted to succeed. i listened to him. allowed. and at a point said enough.

so, sometimes it is my decision, lol.

i dont buy, the kids will turn out the same regardless of paretning or not.

i agree, a certain time they spend more time alone. when he gets his license, i am gonna be sad we wont have the drives to chat. and hear ya, they get more fun when older.

thanks frazzle.

[TNDemo]

19. All my kids took AP.

My two daughters never scored high enough to get college credit (some laziness probably involved there). My son took everything AP. He even took AP for a course he never took and still got college credit. That was about his only non 5 score. When he ran out of available math courses (he was in an academic magnet - one of the top in the country so had a lot) they paid for him to attend Vanderbilt his senior year to pick up math and then went on to high school for the rest of the day. He went to Berkeley and was an engineering major and had no math left required for his major but still chose to take it "for fun." He and I have entirely different concepts of fun. So AP was great for my son (though didn't get the financial benefit of AP since he had a free ride - would have so appreciated that with my daughters, but I digress) and not as useful for my daughters. But I think AP is great but it's a very individual thing. My oldest daughter gave us some grief around junior high and high school and we kept thinking if we just changed her environment it would help, etc. We finally figured out she was just who she was (she's wonderful now) and would be almost anywhere we put her. A high achieving student is going to do well in most any school (unless there is real threat of violence, etc.). There is a teeny tiny county in my state that has zilch to offer anyone and probably had no AP offered yet one of their students had perfect SAT and ACT scores. So it's up to the individual.

[pnwmom]

20. AP classes are a joke. Just a money-maker for the College Board,

and a way for the high schools to get ranked highly on the annual Newsweek magazine ranking. If your school pushes them hard, it's probably because they're trying to stay high in those Newsweek rankings -- which count how many tests are taken each year at each school -- and nothing else. It doesn't even matter if the tests are passed or not, just how many students take them. Every year my district ranks in the top 50 of the country because our graduation requirement includes taking at least one AP class.

So what did I do? I ended up putting all my children into a private school where the emphasis is on learning -- not tests or test scores. They have done very well on the tests they have taken -- but they didn't need any canned AP classes.

The best colleges don't give credit for the tests anymore, because the work really isn't comparable to many college classes. Especially classes in science! No high school can offer an physics or chemistry class comparable to what you can get in college.

[PBS Poll-435]

21. I loved mine

And you aren't required to take or pay for the test.


When you go to a public school, AP classes seem to have less distraction and more meaningful participation, IMHO.


At least that was my experience.

[pnwmom]

24. You probably had great teachers. And they probably would have been

great teachers even if they weren't teaching a canned curriculum. And depending on how your school assigns students to classes, an AP class might just be filled with top students.

At the public school near me, where there was so much pressure on ALL students to take AP, 75% of the students in the statistics class were failing at the mid-term point. It's hard for me to see how that benefits anyone in the class.

[seabeyond]

32. i hear you on that. the 75% failing. that is why i was asking about it

that is why i am looking to pull in some of the courses.

[pnwmom]

36. If your student is hell bent on attending an Ivy or equivalent

(even though a better education is often obtained elsewhere), then he should take the hardest classes he can in everything and get all A's in them.

Otherwise, it makes sense to take AP's in the areas where he is strongest, or at least has the most interest.

But even if he's very interested in science, he shouldn't expect any high school class to be the equal of a good college lab class. And he should be aware that fewer colleges these days, especially top colleges, are offering credit for AP classes.

One other factor: if you're thinking about applying to your state universities, check into the admissions formulas they use. You need to know whether he is better off with a higher GPA with more non AP classes, or a lower GPA with more AP classes. Some Universities look strictly at GPA's. Others give extra weight to AP classes.

[seabeyond]

31. i am not finding aything that you state. kis started in private and found academics below par.

i find the AP classes to be challenging. and i have never had the schools pressure either kids to continue, stay in, or do AP for school recognition.

but thanks, lol

really

glad you found an environment you are happy with your children.

[pnwmom]

37. Our former superintendent was one of the first school leaders

in the country to require ALL students to take at least one AP class and test to graduate from high school. Instantly, our district, which spends about half the amount per child compared to good school districts in the Eastern part of the country, leapt to the top of the Newsweek rankings. Not because our kids were smarter or had learned more -- simply because they had taken more tests (and passed them or failed them -- that didn't matter to Newsweek magazine.)

Then more and more districts caught on, and our district had to work harder to keep its ranking. When we left the district for good, our superintendent had just proposed requiring ALL students to take a total of 5 AP classes/tests: one in math, science, English, history -- and a 5th class/test chosen by the student. At that point, the parents and teachers rebelled, and he backed down.

His next stop? He took a new job -- with the College Board, the makers of the AP test.

Don't let anyone tell you this isn't primarily a money-maker. If your district isn't requiring you to pay for these tests, then the district is paying for them. And the College Board is making lots of money.

[REP]

22. I took all AP in the early 80s; graduated early and entered college as a sophomore

Of course, the standards were different then; AP was actually college-level material.

[pnwmom]

25. Hard to believe that, in science, any high school AP class could be

equivalent to a good chemistry or physics lab in college.

[gkhouston]

41. Believe it. And the chem and physics I took in high school weren't even called AP. n/t

[Igel]

45. That's what they're designed to be.

But the best advice I've heard is this:

Do not use AP credit for classes in your major because each college packages different material in their freshmen classes: The AP course is generic, middle of the road, decent but not great and certainly not adapted to 100 different curricula. Use them to place out of classes that don't lead to other classes seriously important for your major. Then you take the "same" classes but have a far easier time.

That said, in my experience observing classes AP chemistry is not the same as the 1st year college chemistry. On the other hand, I was taking the course for majors, at a school that was specialized for science and engineering. My roomie pointed out that his AP chem and physics classes prepared him for college work; they were not a substitute, my 1st year chem course was a killer, and the topics usually encountered in "first year physics" extended over two years. However, AP chemistry being equivalent to "chemistry for non-majors" is likely. I also rather think that it's likely AP physics is sufficiently equivalent to a generic 1-year course. (This is all that's claimed for them, however.)

[REP]

52. Guess if you've never been in an AP class, it's hard to know what to expect

My AP chem was similar to the classroom at the university, but smaller.

[seabeyond]

33. they are now, too, rep. and that is good to hear. nt

[riderinthestorm]

44. My daughter did the same. In 2005. Entered as a sophomore

and graduated in 3 years with a double major.

She's just very academic and loves the challenge, while I loved the extra savings. In fact, I gave my daughter a generous cash graduation present since she'd saved us so much.

Seabeyond, you have to let your kids give you some guidance on this. If they believe they will excel in the AP classes, they will. If you hold them to a high standard for the regular classes, that's fine too. It will all work out for university.

[seabeyond]

48. shruggin....

you are right. he told me tonight he wanted to stay in the AP chemistry course. that he learned a good lesson. wants to prove he got it. so his to do. but i do appreciate hearing what everyone has to say. their own experiences. he felt awfully good receiving a college credit for his history class.

[truebrit71]

23. They wound up being a waste of money..the kid was smart enough anyway...

...and none of the credits transferred anyway because she didn't score high enough in the tests..the college she goes to kind of laughed about them to be honest..

[pnwmom]

26. Good colleges are less and less impressed by the AP's. n/t

[jillan]

39. Saved my daughter a complete semester of college.

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

42. my daughter's english teacher recommended that she

take AP classes. She did well, and, after it was all said and done, totally was worth it as far as college goes, but she (and I) found that 2 AP classes at a time was her absolute max. She had a very active high school life outside of academics. Our morning conversations ran like this:

Me: Tell me again why I am getting up 2 hours early to take you to school? Humor me, I'm old.

Daughter, loud and exasperated: BECAUSE I'M BAND PRESIDENT, MOM. I HAVE TO GET THERE EARLY.

4 years of that stuff, proud and happy she graduated last June.

[seabeyond]

49. that is absolutely a consideration i have. he has cross country and track

going to practice at 6:30 in morning and staying until 5 after school. add the homework, and he is working.

[AmandaMae]

46. I wish I would have taken more. I took 1 or 2 each year.

[seabeyond]

50. really? interesting

good to hear.

thanks

[trotsky]

54. My son is in middle school and is taking 3 Pre-AP courses.

This Pre-AP stuff is new to me - when I was in school there were only AP classes and I took English, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Government, and I can't remember what else. And there were very few kids that did it.

My son is in Pre-AP English, Science, and Social Studies but his school doesn't do Pre-AP Math. And it's very common to have these 6th graders taking them. It was all very confusing until I was told by my superintendent uncle that schools receive better scores for NCLB the more kids they have that just *take* the AP tests. So it behooves them to get as many kids as possible into the AP track to take those tests.

[Nevernose]

55. My kid's dropping pre-AP math in January

She just can't handle it. Crappy math teacher, too, but she's also already beyond any math I ever learned (I mostly bullshitted my way through high school and college math).

I almost wish she had problems in English. I'm a damn fine English teacher and I'm leaving in two minutes to go teach an AP Lit class.

[seabeyond]

56. what grade is she

my youngest dropped the middleschool pre ap. he really wanted to do it. they put two years in one so highschool ahead and only have three years math. texas is four by four. i could not imagine needing that to graduate. i didnt. they left me behond on the math a while ago. anyway, so regular math is so easy for the kid, he has an A. the pre AP teacher didnt feel he belonged and made damn sure it was ultimately hard for the kid.

my oldest is sophmore. was able to do the math until this year

and both excel in the english and ss classes.

so we are in your boat.

[surrealAmerican]

57. My son's taking five AP courses this year ...

... (he's a junior), and took two last year. One of his math classes this year is beyond what is offered as AP, so he gets credit for it through the local community college. He's done pretty well, although it is very demanding on his time. It definitely requires good time management skills on the student's part.

I'm not sure what you mean by "pre AP". Our high school doesn't call anything pre-AP.

[seabeyond]

58. ya. i get all confused on the pre stuff too. maybe the AP are college credit if pass test. pre AP

are the advance courses without the opportunity to get the college credit, but an accelerated course. what i haev learned from you all is to look at the courses offered, lol. i have handed it all over to son since about 8th grade, cause he is so responsible and future thinking. looking like others are being offered more than what i thought was out there. curious now.

[surrealAmerican]

59. Some high schools offer a lot more AP courses than others.

My son's school is huge, so they may well be able to offer classes that a smaller school wouldn't.