I don't give a fig if someone has 40 kids, its none of my

[quinnox]

business. Why is this story even in the freakin' news anyhow.

[Abin Sur]

1. As long as they aren't supported by the State, I agree.

[hlthe2b]

10. they do get $3700 in tax deductions for each of their soon to be 20 children...

That is quite an offset.....Just sayin....

[Abin Sur]

23. Fair point, but then I'm not in favor of having *any* deduction for children in the tax code.

[pipoman]

57. There is a standard deduction for every person

as it should be. It is unconscionable to tax necessities of life (including sales tax on necessities of life), this is what standard deductions are designed to cover.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

70. But a deduction and a subsidy are too separate things.

So many gay couples are fighting for equality under the law so that their family expenses aren't higher than those of hetero families. They aren't fighting a "gimme mine too" cause, they're fighting because having a family is expensive and they don't want to be put at a disadvantage over some arbitrary bias. And families of any stripe are at an economic disadvantage because they assume expenses childless couples do not.

In it's coldest, dispassionate economic terms the Duggar children will grow-up to be worker/taxpayers. Their productivity will feed the tax base as well as what they pay personally and I'll hazard a guess it will be more than $3,700/year per person. Children are, sorry for this, investments. That is why families, gay as well as straight, ought to be incentivized.

[MedicalAdmin]

25. They lay zero taxes federal or local.

That scamily incorporated as it's own church. No federal tax, no property tax. Plus they get support from the safety nets. And they take donations and there is the tv show.

They are basically bums.

[Cid_B]

51. Which safety nets are they using?

Also, if they are bums, with their own businesses, property and income then what does that make the millions of Americans with no job and no income of their own?

[MedicalAdmin]

55. I know this is hard to get if you've never owned a company or non profit...

And that wasn't a slam.

They don't own anything. Everything is placed in the name of the church which, on paper, owns the cars, house, property and everything. They then take a small meager living stipend which is below the federal cut off for taxes. And then they apply for WIC because they have 20 kids to feed dOntcha know?

It is admittedly a grey area but it is exploitable. Anders not forget the assistance that can be tapped into on the business side from SBA loans to establishing a charter school where they can get money for every home schooled kid and then also lease the building to the school district while foisting off operating costs to the district thus double dipping like mad.

Michele Bachmann did sort of the same thing by warehousing foster kids by the score while applying for farm subsidies and using the money fromthe kids to pay for home improvements.

I know you feel that it is a personal matter, but by gaming the tax system, popping out kids that they take credits and subsidies for, and then going public witha tv show they made the decision to become open to comment. I find them offensive on several levels. I have stated so and stated reasons. Why do you support them? Envy? Desire for slaves/wife/brood mare/future brood mare/tax dodging of your own? feel free to share.

[BR_Parkway]

59. Where can I find some links - a FB buddy was just preaching to me and I had

no clue they were doing all this crap. Would be nice to wipe that smug smirk off her keyboard :)

[MedicalAdmin]

60. It is impossible to say for sure because tax records are private....

... but the Duggars do home school with Jim Blob as the preacher and they also share with a few other families at another building that Jim Blob owns.


Ask your friend how many exemptions 20 kids is equal. Ask your friend how much could they afford to purchase or build / improve if they didn't have to pay property taxes on any of their properties. Ask your friend how well they could do if they could set up a church and funnel all their money through the church so they didn't have to pay taxes.

And if they keep preaching ask them point blank if they use birth control and if so why? And also ask them why they don't have 20 kids yet?

[BR_Parkway]

90. Thanks

[MedicalAdmin]

81. Perhaps bums wasn't the right term.

How about tax dodgers?And it makes those without jobs in need of our help and support.

[ehrnst]

67. I think that we need to care about the welfare of all children, even if their parents are morons

I think that caring for children is the best possible use of my tax dollars.

[Skittles]

2. overpopulation is none of your business?

alrighty then

[quinnox]

11. Nope,I can't do a damn thing about it

except by controlling my own choices regarding having children.

Unless we want to adopt an authoritarian/1984 system like China and limit people to two kids, we as a free country can't do a damn thing about it either.

[Matariki]

41. You can voice your opinion. Nothing wrong with that.

If the general consensus expressed is that having a kabillion kids is generally thought of as selfish, as opposed to rewarded with tv shows and celebrated, that may positively influence peoples' decisions.

[ehrnst]

69. The problem is consumption, not neccessarily the population numbers.

If all humans consumed like US residents, the earth would have been long gone.

[hamsterjill]

66. "Overpopulation is a myth"

Per Jim and Michelle Duggar on last night's show. I watched it just to educate myself a little more about these people. They were taking questions (carefully crafted questions, of course) from viewers and one of the questions had to do with why they were willing to have so many children in a world that is already overpopulated.

This was their answer.

So, I guess now that two religious fundies have decried this, we should simply ignore what all of what the facts indicate, right? (Sarcasm, of course).

Overpopulation is indeed a relevant issue to us all. We have only to look at China to see its effects.

[ehrnst]

68. When women are educated and active in society, birth rates go down. That's where we should be

putting our energy if we want to keep the consumptive habits of the human race at bay.

[Modern_Matthew]

3. I am 23 and I want resources here when I'm 70. It's kind of my business in that sense... nt

[Common Sense Party]

5. Good. Then those kids will be working to pay your Social Security.

We'll need them then.

[Matariki]

42. You can't eat Social Security.

At the rate the population is growing exponentially, All the Social Security in the world won't buy the scant amount of food available, clean water to drink, clean air to breathe, or fuel to keep warm with.

[OneGrassRoot]

84. Yep. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

6. The Duggar kids will be helping pay your Social Security when you retire. (nt)

[MedicalAdmin]

26. No they won't.

Papa is teaching them all how to scam the system and not pay taxes. They will never contribute.

[Nye Bevan]

30. How do you avoid SS taxes? (nt)

[MedicalAdmin]

34. Don't hold a salary or hourly job.

Get paid as a contractor and push off all expenses for living onto the church/ family/ home.

[Common Sense Party]

35. Independent contractors have to pay FICA as well.

I'm not sure how they would get away with not paying it.

So, yes, those kids will be paying your benefits checks--assuming SS still exists when you're 70, and Congress doesn't vote it out of existence before then.

[Major Nikon]

43. Not necessarily

If they establish a business, incorporate, and collect all (or most) of their earnings as dividends, they can avoid all or at least most FICA taxes legally. Millions of people are doing this already.

[MedicalAdmin]

54. Yup. I do the same thing.

Of course my company sonpays lots of other taxes such as sales, biz, etc. I realize that means no SS for me but I'll be dead for health reasons before then anyway. I've often thought of doing as Jim blob does and set up my own church and skip taxes altogether, but then I remember that I have a conscience and th fucker won't shut up - one day I'm going to gas that little cricket.

Seriously - Duggar = no taxes. None. Scammers!

[pipi_k]

63. And I've known a few...

Who worked "under the table"...avoiding paying taxes...while they were ON Social Security for "disabilities".

So yes...lots and lots of people are getting around the system...

[joeglow3]

75. So, you break the law.

Nice.

[LadyHawkAZ]

46. Only the boys will even be working

the girls, having been heavily indoctrinated, will likely be home having kids.

[Kahuna]

7. Wow...

:wow:

[Gregorian]

12. Don't feel badly. Some of us are conscious.

As if social security is a reason to allow a breeding free for all. Shame.

Edit- Let me add that I'm 55, and childless. We aren't all pigs.

[Cid_B]

52. Interesting to see what you would "allow"

Reproductive "rights" only go one way I see...

[pipi_k]

64. Being able to spawn

indiscriminately shouldn't even be a "right".

Really...what gives people the right to inflict their own problems and issues on innocent children?

Kids don't have rights? Like the right to have parents who are there for them, financially, physically, and emotionally?

Kids don't have the right to have parents who are not alcoholics or drug addicts?

There are people out there who should NOT have the "right" to propagate. People have to take training and be tested in order to have a driver's license, but the most important job in the world...that of being a parent...should be open to anybody with viable eggs or sperm, regardless of how the child will live or be treated?

Seriously?

[Cid_B]

83. Maybe you should form a committee...

It could decide who has the most desirable traits to pass on and also determine who has reached their max limit of children or who shouldn't propagate at all.

I wonder where you could find examples of such a thing. Hmmm...

[ehrnst]

72. Depends on what you mean by resources. If we consume fewer of those resources per capita

then the earth can be saved.

A child born in the US consumes 500 times the resources of a child born in a third world country.


All the birth control in the world won't stop the ravaging of the earth if we in the US consume at our current rate.

It makes more sense to reduce our consumption before telling someone else not to have kids.

[riderinthestorm]

4. The Duggars have injected themselves, their lifestyle, and their choices into our public

conversation by pimping themselves and their children on a teevee show. They have created themselves as public personas and thus have opened the door to critique and scrutiny.

[shanti]

18. that's it

in a nutshell.

[tabatha]

8. If they had their own planet it would not matter.

[stuntcat]

76. +1

ty

[Gregorian]

9. I'll bet you care if someone drives drunk.

The consequences of breeding are far greater than most people seem to be able to comprehend.

Our economic meltdown pales in comparison to the damage world population is doing. We need to regulate banking, yet few seem to think we should regulate breeding.

Yes, it's an isolated instance, and most people are not having huge families. But the same goes for drunk driving. But it wouldn't be if we relaxed driving regulations.

[Philosopher King]

19. Regulating breeding...?

Based on what criteria? Age, IQ, gender, race...as in the master race?

[Gregorian]

27. It's academic. You figure it out.

[Common Sense Party]

37. No, you figure it out. It's your proposal.

Tell us how it will work.

[Gregorian]

44. OK. Since we live on a planet with essentially a fixed supply of resources.

And since humans are growing and using those resources in an exponential manner due to growth, unless one is delusional, it only makes sense to put limits on the growth of humans. There are ways to do it without being too irrational. One obvious way is to set it up so that people pay for what they use. That is sort of how it is now, except that we ignore the cost of adding new people to the planet. It didn't used to matter. We used to be on the horizontal portion of the exponential curve. Now we're on the vertical portion. I don't know if you understand that. But it means that instead of just thinking about "me", we have to think in terms of "we" whenever we do things now. Anything we do is magnified so much that growth is massive now. Whereas it didn't used to be that way. Paying some kind of tax for having children is not draconian. But what is happening due to overpopulation is far worse than anything we could do to prevent it from happening.

edit- I feel like I've wasted my time. I doubt you even care. Why else would you have to ask for an explanation.

[Philosopher King]

50. Oh, I have figured it out....

(Control--as in control freak)

[ehrnst]

73. It's not the breeding - it's the consumption of those in the US that is the threat.

Yes, the Duggars kids will consume 500 times that of an equal number of kids born into a third world country.

Regulating consumption - and changin our lifestyles will make far more difference to the future of the planet than hijacking individual women's reproductive freedome.

And when you educate women and make them a valued part of society, the birth rates go down. Empowering women, not restricting them, is the way to go.

The Duggars are a case in point - their religion devalues women and views their highest function as Breeders.

Viewing women in terms of Breeding is contrary to solving the problems of human consumption.

[mike_c]

13. if you live on the same planet they live on it's your business....

Please read this: The Tragedy of the Commons, by Garrett Hardin, http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.124.3859%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&ei=ZeG5TuOpAYWIiALj_b32BA&usg=AFQjCNFCiuh54GR_54yKK6jrZgwbaWQ1KQ

[Horse with no Name]

14. That is the thing about choice

I don't have to like theirs, they don't have to like mine.

We just have to respect that each of us has a right to our OWN choice and leave it at that.

And let us be honest here...seriously, for every Duggar child, there are multitudes of abortions done that can offset the balance of damage to the earth.

I personally would rather have 20 abortions than 20 kids.


But, that is MY choice.

Let's just keep our eye on the prize. Preserve choice for ALL!

[Gregorian]

17. We are reaching a point where our choices do affect each other.

When you have an abortion, it doesn't affect other people. When you breed, it does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-0vnRmej0Q

[HughBeaumont]

15. Even if, at this point, Jim Blob's putting the mom and fetus in danger?

Her last delivery was three months premature due to pre-eclampsia. Josie weighed 1.6 pounds at birth. This woman has spent over half of her life pregnant.

COME on.

Beliefs, business, whatever . . . This HAS to stop. We DON'T have the resources.

This manifest plan behind the quiverful movement is fucking stupid. Taking back America in Christ's name . . . great, so we're going to have a bunch of breeders breeding more breeders believing that dinosaurs were large horses for humans and the Earth is 6,000 years old.

The women of this movement don't even KNOW they're hostages.

[kestrel91316]

16. The Duggars forced themselves into the public eye of their own free will

in the pursuit of MONEY, i.e. that idiotic tv show of theirs.

[quinnox]

20. I didn't know about a tv show

So that is why this is newsworthy. Well, why these folks were given a show in the first place is bizarre to begin with.

[riderinthestorm]

22. Yes, a "reality" show that pimps the theory that women belong in the home, barefoot and preggers

that men make all the decisions. That public education is eeevvvilll. That the only righteous household is one where Gawd is everpresent (a Christian gawd of course).

You don't see why they'd be given a teevee show? Really? The Rethug owners of mass media are selling a social movement they'd LOVE to see perpetuated on women all over the US.

[musette_sf]

31. ALL of the recent programming of random breeders

is for "selling a social movement they'd LOVE to see perpetuated on women all over the US".

Just as the plethora of jail/crime programming is intended to desensitize the American public to living in a police state, the plethora of breeder glorification programming is intended to desensitize the American public to living in a theocratic misogynistic patriarchy.

[riderinthestorm]

32. Yup. I agree 100000%.

I didn't know about JimBob's little tax dodges before Medical Admin came on this thread. Beyond the disgusting theocratic patriarchy, JimBob's tax scams are another reason to care about the Duggar Family Trademark On Teevee

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Read on quiverful and realize that's what they

Want for the country. It is part of a fringe movement that wishes theocracy on the us. Otherwise, they are irrelevant.

[kestrel91316]

89. TLC. 19 Kids and Counting.

http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/tv/19-kids-and-counting

[Philosopher King]

21. As long as I'm not paying for, or changing the diapers, it is indeed, none of my business.

[MedicalAdmin]

28. You are paying for it. Jimbo isnt. he's a tax dodger. N/t

[Cid_B]

85. Is one a tax dodger if one operates entirely within the law?

Is it realistic to expect anyone, anywhere to pay more to the government than they absolutely have to? If you don't like the law then talk to the politicians that put it into place or work to change it.

or are you claiming that the Duggars are committing some form of fraud etc..?

[ljm2002]

80. As long as they are on TV and in the news...

...it is our business, since it has been put forward for our consideration by the news organizations and by the Duggars themselves.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

29. Yeah, let's have ten or twenty billion people on earth

cut down every rain forest, bulldoze every mountain, blacktop every meadow, exploit and profit from every single natural resource available without restraint, and exterminate every wild species because it's none of anyone's business.

[Gregorian]

33. Strange how making a public nuisance is our business. Smoking pot is our business.

Yet doing something that has more impact than any other activity is none of our business.

You might like this-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-0vnRmej0Q

[Romulox]

36. Let's be real for 1 second: it's just fucking gross. nt

[spanone]

38. the story the morning fluff shows just adore.....

[Book Lover]

39. Rec'd to zero

So glad to know DU is ready to judge a woman when she doesn't behave they way they want her to. Can't you just *smell* the freedom!

[Wait Wut]

79. Judgment is natural.

I said this in another thread, if it weren't for us being judgmental, this site wouldn't exist. When people decide to become public spectacles, they are fair targets for judgment.

It is their right to have a million children. It is my right to judge them and say they disgust me.

[JI7]

40. They have a TV show and they announce they are having more kids on Today Show

so people will comment.

[eridani]

45. You have no right to stop her, but you still have a right to an opinion n/t

[cutlassmama]

47. the clown car is preggers again...oh wow, how many more can

she shoot out?

[timtom]

48. I recommended this

but the tally is still at zero.

There is an errant moralism rampant here among a vociferous klatch of DUers. They impose their moralistic certitudes with abandon, at the same time decrying others imposing a moralistic will upon them. Of course, this is a perception on my part. It may be anecdotal. Or not.

Sorry, quinnox. Sometimes the voice of reason doesn't prevail here.

[harun]

58. +1

[backtoblue]

62. + 2

Immediately after the rec, it went back down to zero. :shrug:

Anyway, it's not my business how many children a woman has - or chooses not to have.

[Le Taz Hot]

49. A point I was trying to make

but (not at all unexpectedly) was creamed for (won't be the first time on DU and it won't be the last). For the learning impaired: A WOMAN EXERCISING HER RIGHT TO CHOICE IS NO ONE'S BUSINESS. It was amusing watching the "neo liberals" try to defend conditions on an absolute right.

[whistler162]

56. Of course it isn't unless you don't like the choice she made

or her polititcal/religious affiliation<SARCASM>.

[eShirl]

53. ALL Reality TV shows, and the personal lives of their "stars," are news now.

the Cardassians*, various talent shows, etc etc ad nauseum

(*intentionally misspelled)

[Blue_Tires]

61. I think the outrage (at least in my case) is more directed at the culture

of media and reality TV viewership that encourages this...No matter how fundie the Duggars are in their beliefs, you can't convince me they would've still had 20 kids (or even 10) if there were no cameras, freebies and they actually had to WORK for a living...

[Shagbark Hickory]

65. Too many babies. Not enough honest ways to make a living.

As it is, college graduates aren't finding work.

Why the fuck do people still keep having kids?

100 years ago, people lived off the land. Families supported themselves. It doesn't work that way anymore. People are dependent on relatively high paying jobs and get trapped in a consumer culture where they're slaves to their homes and their other living expenses.

Our growth rate is not only unsustainable, it's totally out of control.

We don't have a healthcare system, we have a retirement system that's on the verge of being dismantled, we have corruption at every level of our government, we let dirty industries run rampant and destroy the planet in an effort to satisfy our appetite for objects and energy, and while there's a never ending supply of junk food, we're overfishing our waters and harming the planet with cattle farms. Schools are going broke as it is.

Something should be done about this.
Oh, I know. Let's encourage people to have more babies. GOOD IDEA! :sarcasm:

[ehrnst]

74. Too much consumption per person, even with lower birth rates.

The thirst for oil and personal electronics is the problem.

[Shagbark Hickory]

78. Just one of many problems.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

71. yum. figs.

tasty :9

[snort]

77. Tax them.

[Gregorian]

82. And folks, here we have a good summation of the arguments on this thread.

All of those words. When just two suffice.

:)

[slackmaster]

87. I thought you were referring to "snort" rather than "Tax them."

Either way works for me.

[pitohui]

86. it's my business when they're costing me money

tax deductions for multiple children should be cut off after 2

these people are plain out stealing from the public and they are taking an unfair cut of the earth's resources

we need to use peer pressure to discourage big honking stealing selfish pigs from acting like pigs, otherwise the behavior continues

if you want a world where religious hysterics can profit and push their agenda on teevee by popping out more than their fair of children, then pretend it isn't your business

people having too many children and raising those children in religious ignorance DOES impact me, since i am a woman, it does great harm to me and all women who come after me

[snooper2]

88. Good for jokes?

It stinks being the middle child, but it really stinks when you’re one of 18 of them.

It’s okay to have 20 kids, but only if you’re running an orphanage.

One more kid and they have blackjack!

You know you have a lot of kids when you have enough for your own Occupy Wall Street protest.

:rofl: