Happy, but still do not see why our uteruses are continuously

[efhmc]

fodder for public laws and rules. Why are women's bodies a battleground for laws and regulations and not their own private responsibility?

[monmouth]

1. Just try to get Viagra removed from the market....n/t

[calimary]

4. I thnk we should. I think we should do EXACTLY that!

Start legislating the scrotum! If they can keep trying to jam Big Brother Government up into my uterus and ovaries and my doctor's office, turnabout is DEFINITELY fair play. They should know how it feels to have their own privates under seige!

Taste of their own medicine. See how they like it.

[pitohui]

50. have you taken a look at your local legislature lately?

how many politicians are men? how many women?

there can be no "turnabout" because women hold no power

[calimary]

59. Point well-taken! Sort of underscores it all.

At the moment what we have to do is try to motivate some of the women who ARE in office to take a leadership position on this. Maybe they need to start writing and proposing legislation like this. Start bringing it up. Start putting it out in the open for discussion. Start putting it in their faces. Force them to deal with it. Even the threat of legislation like this, for which they then should actively and relentlessly encourage all kinds of coverage, might make some of them pause. And it won't make them stop, but maybe it will slow them down.

And hey, who's to say it might not be an idea that starts catching on, to one extent or other?

Whatever impedes their progress is a VERY good thing.

[efhmc]

7. Let men have all the viagra they need and want. They

deserve whatever they need for their own bodies. I hope they understand that I would never vote for or want anything that violates their dominion over their own bodies.

[Nye Bevan]

10. Women who think Viagra only benefits men

obviously do not enjoy sex very much.

[Skittles]

2. it is still a man's world, efhmc

that's why it is so fucked

[efhmc]

24. I always love and respect your words of wisdom,

but please help me try to educate these new ones into the rights of the people. Somehow, they seem not to understand this means ALL the people, even those of us with vaginas. Thanks.

[Skittles]

28. I'VE HAD IT WITH MEN

LIKED IT TOO :D

I guess it's conservative men I cannot fucking stand!!!

[efhmc]

36. What I think is it is religion. It is used universally to degrade and

control women.

[pacalo]

3. I was phone-surveyed in the early evening today & told him abortion is between the woman

& her doctor only, in the tone of voice that would let him know that the question he'd just asked was beyond ignorant.

I asked my husband if he thought maybe the MS vote was based on females vs. males? It's possible.

[Yupster]

5. Why is it between a woman and her doctor?

Shouldn't it just be the woman's right period?

If a woman wants an abortion and te doctor says he/she doesn't believe in abortion should the woman therefore not have one?

I never get why people say it'sd a decision for a woman and her doctor.

I don't think people really mean that. I hope not anyway.

[jeff47]

6. Because the doctor can provide medical advice.

Many abortions are necessary due to medical reasons. Often need a doctor to analyze the situation and provide advice. If it's an elective abortion, then the doctor's advice doesn't matter.

[uppityperson]

11. same reason other medical treatments are between the patient and the doctor

It is the woman's right. The doctor, or nurse practitioner, helps them by doing the medical part.

[pacalo]

27. The doctor -- preferable to a wire hanger -- performs the abortion.

[pitohui]

51. they say that because sometimes the doctor has a reason to advise abortion

i can think of a case where the woman in question would not have gotten the abortion but the doctor felt her life was at risk -- the woman did not at first realize her health risks were life threatening

99% of the time the woman's decision is final but a doctor is in the business of saving a life and sometimes the decision is in the doctor's hands like it or not (woman is unconscious or otherwise not in a position to know all the facts)

[efhmc]

13. I hope not. I think there are many men who understand

the principle that women are people and as people they have dominion over their own bodies. Even if they don't believe that women have dominion over their own bodies when they are pregnant, I think they are still appalled that the women they love might be raped and be made to carry and reproduce their rapist's babies.

[RainDog]

16. sadly, there are women who argue that other women should have to give birth if raped

to me, anyone of any gender who would try to tell someone they could not have access to a morning-after pill because conception *might* have occurred in the case of rape is someone I think is too sick-minded to be a parent themselves.

[efhmc]

26. So agree.

[MedleyMisty]

8. Because the capitalists need cheap labor

They dress it up in religion to sell it to poor uneducated people, but it's all about labor. The babies that are forced to be born will make good fast food workers, or fruit pickers, or Wal-Mart cashiers, etc.

Same with LGBT issues. Same sex couples do not produce workers.

[Horse with no Name]

12. You forgot soldiers for their endless wars

which is the main reason for the dumbing down in the schools. Educated kids KNOW war isn't the answer-never has been and history is abundant in examples. Their solution?? Don't teach it.

[Horse with no Name]

9. I think that if THEY are allowed to decide our reproductive rights

that WE ought to be allowed to petition some of the low-life motherfuckers that should NOT be allowed to reproduce...

Personally, I throw all in for the ENTIRE Bush family. Enough of those evil fuckers already! Kill the line off.

[EFerrari]

14. Code Pink tweeted today that all wars are waged on the bodies of women.

That would include economic and ideological ones, I guess.

[efhmc]

22. I love Code Pink, but I think that wars are started on the egos

of men and supported by the life force, willingly or not, of women.

[DesertRat]

15. Because many men still want to control women

[efhmc]

17. But loads of men love their mothers and daughters and sisters

and friends and want the best for them. Not to mention the fact that loads of women will never let anyone, men or women put them in a place that categorize them as walking reproductive units and not as people.

[DesertRat]

19. I know, I am married to one of the good guys

But there are still too many of the ones who want to control us, and women who are vulnerable to being controlled. :(

[efhmc]

20. Sad to say it is so true but it is up to us good guys and gals to

show them the loving and supportive way to help all of us, no matter what kind of reproductive organs we have.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

34. I was married to a control freak that wanted me to get an abortion.

We had been married for a while and I got pregnant. I was thrilled and overjoyed. He told me to get an abortion and I said "Hell no!".

He said we couldn't afford it because all he cared about was money. He had a good job and good insurance. we later got a divorce because he was trying to nag me to death, because I had a beautiful healthy child. He almost succeeded in nagging me to death. He nagged me to the point that I ended up in the hospital sick from normal bacteria.

Therefore I had to be punished for that.

And by the way, I had to pay HIM child support for quite a few years. I told him that millions of couples would give everything they owned to have a healthy child, but he wouldn't listen. He was SOOO negative about everything. He thought that I did everything I did on purpose, just to piss him off, since he was so egotistical. I think he's a sociopath and a compulsive liar.

He spent about $40,000 or more on the divorce, dragging it out, and he also went after my elderly parents, and said my father was a "shyster" and tried to get my father's law license revoked by going to the State Bar and asking them if anyone had filed a grievance against him.

I never said an unkind word to this guy when I was married to him. What would he have acted like if I had been mean to him?? He was mean to me for no reason.


:shrug: :wtf:


On edit: He told the baby sitter that he was going to "destroy" my parents. Got him on tape. I told him that I was going to do what I wanted to because he didn't like anything I did anyway. I told him he lied in church when he said he would love me, comfort me, honor me and keep me because he did none of those things. He thinks he had to "correct" me and that I did not deserve respect, I had to "earn respect".

This is because nobody ever told me to stand up for myself and not be a doormat. Nobody I didn't have to put up with negative, horrible, emotionally abusive men.

My parents sat around and wondered why I put up with men that put me down, and it never occurred to them why.

So I have a beautiful grown daughter now, no thanks to him. He told me I was "lazy" because i was flat on my back in bed, after a C-section delivery! I had to be flat on my back for two days due to spinal anesthesia. He would not stay home and take care of me after the delivery either. I should have told him to go to hell. He was in the delivery room and saw them slice me open. He just used every opportunity to put me down. I cost his insurance company a lot of money because he nagged me so much I collapsed from stress. I was in and out of the hospital for five or six years.

His abuse of me cost him many thousands of dollars. He said I was bribing the doctor to put me in the hospital because I really wasn't sick. What a nutcase. Everyone else thinks he is a nice guy. I know what he is, and he is very sick.

[demigoddess]

35. even some good guys are mean for no reason. Mine is one

of the good ones but still yells whenever I do anything even a little wrong. Doesn't understand what he is doing. think he gets it from his father, who was a real control freak, and male chauvinist.

[efhmc]

38. It is hard to unlearn their childhood lessons.

[raccoon]

41. It's hard for me to unlearn mine too--but it can be done. nt

[efhmc]

44. If you can see them for what they are and have a strong desire

to change, it can be done. Most don't. But congratulations to you for accomplishing this.

[efhmc]

37. Good grief. I hope you are far away from him now. Blessings.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

46. Yep. He did things that were shocking and immoral but not illegal.

He was smart enough to never hit me. People were horrified when I told them about all the things he had done. I still have no idea why he did what he did, or why he married me when he didn't love me. He didn't buy me Christmas presents either. And then wondered why I sat there and cried for a couple of hours on Christmas day. I had to buy the Christmas tree. He wouldn't spend a dime on Christmas decorations.

I can only conclude that he was a golddigger. He also stopped having sex with me and refused to take showers to keep me from touching him, after I had the baby. He smelled like cutting oil. He would go off on weekends to ride dirt bikes with his macho buddies. He does not like women, although he has remarried.

Took me two and a half years to get a divorce. It was final in 1991 and I have a beautiful grown daughter.

He was the second husband.

The first one, in college, was abusive in a different way. He slept with seven of my girlfriends, flaunted it at the college he was going to, and drank and smoked pot and complained about everything. His parents screamed and yelled at me like I was not good enough for them. He was no prize.


However, he has since changed his act completely and became a minister.

[efhmc]

47. So sorry that you have had things so bad but thankfully you

have your daughter.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

48. Yes, she is the best thing I ever did.

Growing up I was only encouraged to study and be smart. I was supposed to suck up to men and protect their fragile egos, (snort) and be a doormat.

Motherhood gave me a balance that I needed. I didn't want my family to die off, basically.

Mom kept saying "Anyone can have a baby! Doesn't take any brains to reproduce!"

She missed the point. Of course after I had her, my parents were just as crazy about her as any normal grandparents.

Too bad my ex was so negative. So many angry men out there that are just a negative vortex of suck. Gotta get away from them.

It's especially bad here in the country where they all seem to think Jeebus tells em to control their familly.

My ex was an atheist.

[Romulox]

18. What about the War on Drugs? Full of involuntary tests of bodily fluids, mass incarcerations

and denial of ones right to do with ones body what one will.

[efhmc]

23. I see your point about dominion over ones' own body but cannot

see drug ingestion and conception as the same thing. Want to help me out with this concept. All people can use drugs but only females can conceive.

[Matariki]

21. ++++++1

indeed.

[Withywindle]

25. I had a long mental list of possible funny pro-choice answers

And they all kind of fell apart as compared to the raw question in your post. I can make jokes making fun of patriarchy all day...


but it really does come down to that. A very simple question.


WHY does anyone who doesn't actually have a female body feel like he has ANY right whatsoever to make pronouncements about what goes on in a female body?

Men, the "father of the baby deserves input" doesn't wash. if you want to keep control of the eventual fate of your sperm when having sex with a woman you don't want to commit to serious conversations with? Men have major decision-making responsibilities as well, but yours happens BEFORE conception. You have several choices:

(1 )Insist on using a condom at all times, no matter what. Men are equally capable of pronouncing the words "No glove, no love." If she says no to that, then you say no to her. Men are equally capable of pronouncing the word "no."

(2) If you don't trust condoms alone (and yes, they do break sometimes), then you might suggest to your partner that you do other acts beside PIV intercourse, that are much less likely to lead to pregnancy. There are a LOT of these. Many of them are, frankly, a lot more fun. Again, stick to these (many! awesome!) activities, and refuse the ONLY ONE that is likely to knock her up. If she pressures you, stick to your "no." You have as much right to have your "no" taken seriously as any woman, because you are a human being and all human beings deserve to have "no" respected. Use that power if you feel at all unsafe, reproductively speaking.

(3) If you are AT ALL concerned that your partner might "oops" you, or have an abortion against your wishes----DO NOT have sex with her, and seek counseling for couples if this lack of trust persists. Oh, you're not a couple on counseling-worthy level? Well then, it goes back to numbers 1 and 2.



In short: Anything you shoot into someone else's body, you have lost control of. It no longer belongs to you. You gave it up. If you shot it into someone you can't speak in multisyllabic words with, or discuss cervical mucus and diaper prices with, don't come cryin' to me when it doesn't go your way. Once it's in her body, it's IN HER BODY. If you don't want her making choices about what's IN HER BODY that affect you, then make sure your sperm doesn't wind up there.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

30. VERY well put, my dear Withywindle!

You have really said it perfectly.

I wish I could recommend your post...

Thank you!

[Withywindle]

33. Aw, thanks, dear CaliforniaPeggy.

:D


I might be dubious about abortion too if EVERYONE'S path to reproduction consisted of nothing more painful or risky than an orgasm in the right place at the right time, as it is for the men who feel free to shoot their mouths off on this topic.


But as long as ANYONE bears a risk of death or disfigurement or has their body viscerally changed and/or feels extreme pain in the process, as women do, then I'll oppose forced-birth for the same reason that I oppose armed robbery and the draft and torture--forcing anyone to risk their life and health (worst-case scenario) and/or feel agonizing pain (pretty much a given in childbirth, even if it goes perfectly well) against their will is NEVER OKAY AND NEVER WILL BE OKAY.


I really, really hate this idea of women as "natural" sexual gatekeepers. B-fucking-S.

[efhmc]

40. WOW!! I went to bed last night without reading this. An amazing.

truthful and helpful analysis. I wish you could post it on the front page. Thanks for your wisdom.

[Withywindle]

29. What it boils down to for me:

Death in childbirth still happens, even in the "first world" (which the US no longer is, if your'e poor or working-class). It still ranks high on leading causes of death for women in that age range. Even young and healthy women with money and insurance and all the other possible advantages can develop dangerous complications alarmingly quickly. I once almost lost a friend that way.


Any women who carries a pregnancy to term is risking her life or long-term health to some degree. Most women who have babies they want are aware of this, and choose to go ahead anyway because they have a strong desire for a baby....Which is as it should be. Having babies should be only for those who really want to do so, because it is painful and risky. It is not in any way a minor inconvenience. It should NEVER EVER EVER be involuntary.

I oppose forced-birth policies (which is what anti-choice policies really are) for the same reason I oppose a military draft for men. It is NEVER OKAY to force anyone to risk their life against their will.

[LadyHawkAZ]

31. It's a nice, distracting hot-button issue

great crowd control for ignorant conservatives who might otherwise notice what a lousy job their conservative masters are doing with everything else.

[efhmc]

45. But they have made chamges to the law in several states.

[krispos42]

32. You're such a Negative Nancy.

A hundred years ago, the government had 100% control over a woman's body! Now it's, what, 6 or seven percent? Uterus, ovaries, fallopian tubes, cervix, and vagina. Can't weigh more than 10 pounds or so, right?

If you weigh 150 pounds and the government declares sovereignty over only 10 pounds of it, that's only 6.7%!!!

Aren't you relieved by progress?












:sarcasm:

[efhmc]

42. Funny. Actually mother nature in the form of menopause has

had the last word over my own reproductive organs. Sorry right wing groups.

[justiceischeap]

39. It's ridiculous that politicians want to legislate how our bodies are treated

but we don't see laws being created to hold men accountable for knocking up women. If our uteri are subject to laws and regulations then a man's penis should as well. If you believe the Bible, only one woman in this world got pregnant without a man making her so (and technically that's not even true--God, being male made her pregnant and was a man but I digress).

[efhmc]

43. Good point.

Now I will digress. I found both forms of plural for uterus when I checked but I think you choice the better one.

[pitohui]

49. because women are property

i never thought the 21st century would be a world where for the overwhelming majority of women, the only way to wealth would be to fuck somebody, marry somebody, be beautiful and get on teevee so that a lot of other creeps could fantasize about fucking you -- it is the 15th century w. teevee sets, or at best the 18th century w. teevee sets

most of us have no value whatsoever, if we are neither beautiful nor well connected, our only value to this sick society is our ability to pop out babies

there is no equal rights for women in our usa constitution and i no longer believe there ever will be -- rights and opportunities are ONLY for the daughters of the wealthy, fuck all for the rest of us

we are not considered equal and we kid ourselves when we pretend that we are -- we lie to our daughters that they can be anything so a big corporate bank and a big college can profit from her indendured servitude to the student loans ...

if we were considered equal, nobody would have to have a referendum on whether or not i should be allowed to have an abortion to save my fucking life, but in america a large and hateful minority does not consider any woman as valuable as a clump of cells -- after all, there is always a chance that the clump of cells has male DNA...

and women aren't even fighting any more to be equal, they are fighting to sell themselves as strippers and beauty queens and who can blame them? there is more money and opportunity in being a "housewife of orange county" or a snookie than there is in working hard to get an education

[ismnotwasm]

52. no shit

I'm well and truly pissed. The whole so-called debate is just bizarre. As are these initiatives. Bizarre and in the cases where abortion is restricted, attempted murder. These anti-choice assholes like dramatic rhetoric? Let them understand that every time a woman is forced to continue a pregnancy, as far as I' m concerned it should be punishable by law, the charge attempted murder. If a woman is permanently injured in some way by being forced to carry a pregnancy to term, she should entitled to full recompense including pain and suffering.

[SoCalDem]

53. Because there are still a LOT of angry men

who have never gotten out of the "Mad Men" state-of-mind.


Deep down these angry men resent the fact that women are no longer baby-machines who stay at home cooking, baking, mending, doing laundry, ironing, and waxing the ceilings....and always at the ready to service "their man" at all times.

For most of humankind's existence on this planet, the female of the species tended to rearing the next generation, tending the home-place, and preparing meals, and lots of men wish it had never changed.

They cannot force women back into full-on servitude, so they tweak laws to make their new-found self-ownership as difficult as possible...and to remind women everywhere that their rights are always a pen-stroke away from being taken back.

[Yavin4]

54. Uteruses are Subject to Public Laws Because The 1% Need Wedge Issues

in order to get the poor to vote for the economic agenda. There are whole counties, congressional districts, and other large swaths of the electorate that only vote on abortion and/or guns.

The 1% gladly exploits these groups knowing that they will elect pols that will help their agenda at the expense of that same poor and/or working class voter.

The cruel irony is that the 1% never want the abortion nor the gun issue to ever go away.

[FiveGoodMen]

55. Nuke the pulpits and that'll clear most of it up.

[Ohio Joe]

56. Because repugs believe women are less then men

They want to control women in all ways. Fuckers.

[NMMNG]

57. Lysistrata

Seriously. If women told men they'd get no sex until birth control and abortion were freely available and affordable everywhere, this shit would come to an end.

[minavasht]

58. I'm divided

on this issue.
On one hand, yes, it's the woman's body and she has the right to chose what to do with it.
On the other hand, it is the life of a child, that was created by TWO people. So we have three people involved - mother, who has to carry the baby for 9 months, the baby, who has to live all it's live or die now and the father, who may or may not want to have that child.
On one side the woman can decide that she can terminate the pregnancy and claim that it is her right and the father does not have a say in the matter. On the other, once she decides to keep it, the father is on the hook for child support, even if he did not want the baby.
I know that being a man I am biased, but it just does not seem fair to me.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

60. Marriage won't make it wonderful.

I found that out the hard way.
The right wingers think that if you get married, that will make a guy love you, respect you and take care of you.

They think god gives a shit that you have a state issued screwing license.

They are fetishising a piece of paper. They think a marriage certificate is MAGIC.

That is not true. You can't make someone love you or respect you.

I was married but my ex thought he had the right to make me have an abortion.

He told people that I trapped him. I did not trap him. He was just very negative and couldn't understand the joy of a healthy child.

:banghead: :wtf:

Some grumpy conservative control freaks don't want women to have babies because that "ties them down" and costs them MONEY!! Money is more important than children! My sister was married to a grumpy guy who didn't like smart women. He was quite abusive to her.

Once a woman friend of mine came over to her house. The guest is a Rice University graduate and she is also an attorney. He was so mad! He retreated to the den and grunted. Very antisocial. He is now married to a little Chinese lady who is probably a mail-order bride. You know those guys. The ones that don't like uppity, educated American women.

:banghead: :wtf:

[minavasht]

61. I hear you!

I as just pointing out that the decision the woman makes affects at least 3 people.
If she decides to have an abortion, the father kinda does not have a choice.
And if she decides to keep the baby, the father still does not have a choice but gets to pay child support.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

62. In my case, I HAD TO PAY CHILD SUPPORT TO HIM.

He got custody and that was OK with me. I was quite ill for several years, due to his nagging and would have died had my doctor not washed my lungs out so I would not die of pneumonia.

Texas is a state with equal rights, due to the Spanish marital property law. We have community property and both parents are presumed to be equally fit.

Women pay child support too. I did.

[Karenina]

63. ANY MALE objecting to being "on the hook" for child support

might consider a VASECTOMY to preserve his choice BEFORE indulging in the "a stiff cock has no conscience" thang. PRO-CHOICE.

[JuniperLea]

64. They aren't, really

This is a ploy... an issue the Pubbies trot out every election cycle. It really means nothing. It's all smoke, mirrors, and faux outrage... nothing is going to change. The Pubbies will make sure that abortions remain legal in the USA, you can count on it. They need this issue to rile their idiot base up... if they really wanted to make abortions illegal, they would be. It could have been done during GWB's reign of terror... easily. Very easily. Yet it wasn't. They need this issue.