Brutal, Brutal Mr. Fish Toon (warning graphic)

[n2doc]

[GliderGuider]

1. Just in time for November 11.

We don't honor men who beat their children with the assumption that the beatings will "teach them to respect him."
Why on earth should we honor men who kill other people with the assumption that peace will somehow magically spring from murder?

Well done, Mr. Fish.

[RC]

13. Excellent

I am so stealing that. (With attribution of course.)

[GliderGuider]

24. Steal away, mon vieux!

I'm glad you liked it. :hi:

[Bok_Tukalo]

2. At least the artist had the decency to say "we"

... allowing that he is also culpable in the actions taken to express the political will of the citizens of the United States of America.

Although I find his graphic argument against volunteering for the military of this nation repugnant; loyalty, duty, and service to your nation and the people for whom you act is always honorable regardless of the dental plan.

Our volunteer service acts on civilian orders. Change the civilian political dynamic and leave the soldier out of it. He is doing his duty.


This image is disgusting.

[Bake]

3. You hit the mail on the head!

Don't blame the soldiers. Blame the civilians who give the orders, including our own Democratic President.

Bake

[lunatica]

6. Where does it blame the soldier?

It looks to me like it includes the soldier as one of the victims.

[tomp]

34. every human being is responsible for his or her actions.

there is specific military code against following an illegal order and there are rules of war.

there is also the history of the united states' military actions.

there are many ways to serve one's country without joining an OBVIOUSLY imperialist military system.

one of them is NOT joining the military.

[lunatica]

4. This cartoon isn't against the soldier

Look at it. It shows a soldier with missing and bloody limbs and in agony. It makes a point about everyone being victims of warmongers.

[metalbot]

9. It's very disparaging to soldiers

"Don't join the army expecting to find honor - join for the shitty dental plan..."

[rhett o rick]

30. You got it backwards. It's deparaging the USofFuckingA.

The soldiers can be honorable but their mission isnt. Dont join looking for honor when we kill indiscriminately.

[rhett o rick]

31. Duplicate post. nm

[JackDragna]

5. "I was just following orders."

..is not an acceptable dodge of moral culpability. If you know your government is unjust and you willingly take up arms in defense of its aims, then you're no better than a civilian who gives you the order to kill.

[lunatica]

8. The soldier isn't being depicted as the bad guy. Warmongers are.

[jeff47]

10. The soldier is being depicted as a useful idiot. (nt)

[jeff47]

11. Private Smith had no way to refute W's claims about WMDs in Iraq

Private Thompson really thought the war in Afghanistan was to root out al Queda.

Private Jones thought it was about stopping Serbian genocide.

Private Johnson really thought the war was about liberating Kuwait.

And so on.

Knowing your orders are "unjust" happens only in very rare cases. Usually, soldiers only find out what the real situation was long after the fact.

[Bok_Tukalo]

12. This image is not about unlawful orders

It is an admission of political impotence and the inability to convince his fellow citizens to agree with his philosophy on the use of our military. Failing politically, he directs his attention to those who would serve and tells them their service is not honorable and tells those who do serve (and die and are maimed) that what they do is not honorable.

I think Shakespeare covered this in Henry V.

But we are the King:

Bates Ay, or more than we should seek after; for we know
enough, if we know we are the kings subjects: if
his cause be wrong, our obedience to the king wipes
the crime of it out of us.

Williams But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath 1980
a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and
arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join
together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at
such a place;' some swearing, some crying for a
surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind 1985
them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their
children rawly left. I am afeard there are few die
well that die in a battle; for how can they
charitably dispose of any thing, when blood is their
argument? Now, if these men do not die well, it 1990
will be a black matter for the king that led them to
it; whom to disobey were against all proportion of
subjection.

[GliderGuider]

17. I personally agree with this part:

I do in fact "direct my attention to those who would serve and tell them their service is not honorable and tell those who do serve (and die and are maimed) that what they do is not honorable."

That is exactly my opinion: Military service is a dishonourable profession.

[Bok_Tukalo]

19. Take up the White Man’s burden

And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better
The hate of those ye guard—

[GliderGuider]

21. "...I don't know, I've never Kippled"

I'm a fairly radical pacifist, as well as an anti-hierarchical anarchist. I've been working on both positions for the last 60 years. You may sue me if you wish.

[Bok_Tukalo]

22. I would but unfortunately, anarchy has eliminated a way to adjudicate disputes

<POE>

[GliderGuider]

23. And pacifism eliminated trial by combat.

I guess we'll just have to agree to get along! :hi:

[westerebus]

43. That's not been my reality.

Then, I'm not a pacifist.

[dixiegrrrrl]

41. which is why you are on my buddy list.

:hi:

[GliderGuider]

52. Cool! Thanks.

:hug:

[zeemike]

48. Yes indeed those were the good old days

When kings ruled by absolute authority and obedience to the orders from on high were required or you would be killed.
But there is some security in that that allows the criminal use of things like torture and such to the ones that actually do it....they were just following orders....
But we learned the lesson with Fascism...where the leader had that absolute power to ask his people to do any crime and they would do it knowing that they were "blameless" by virtue of there agreement to blindly obey....or at least I thought we learned.
But evil seems to have found a way around the findings of Nuemburg...first make the soldier into a hero then decry anyone who speaks out when our hero's commit crimes in the name of keeping us free....that is the story and they will stick with it.

[greytdemocrat]

14. Yes, it is disgusting and uncalled for. n/t

[Javaman]

16. Yes, it is disgusting that the US does all that and it's uncalled for for soldiers...

to carry out those orders.

[rhett o rick]

32. I would like to know why you think it's uncalled for? nm

[inna]

50. Yes, it is disgusting that the US does all that and it's uncalled for for soldiers...

... to carry out those orders.


So accurate and concise, it had to be repeated - especially for those who don't get it yet.

[frustrated_lefty]

45. Equally disgusting

is the fact that our government was and is willing to misrepresent and falsify evidence to be used as propaganda to build support for an unjustified war. I'd also argue that representations of military service in advertisements and by recruiters are blatantly false, and free video game centers supported by the DoD to attract youth are fucking abominations. These tools are used to draw in the wide-eyed and bushy-tailed youth who are full of hope and aspiration, eager to pursue honor and meaningful action. That eagerness, the very willingness to pursue honorable action is a noble intent, and I think it's entirely reasonable for individuals like Mr Fish to use what tools are available to them to warn these youth against the possibility of misplacing their hope and aspirations.

If every ad on tv makes it look like every member of the armed services is going to play the lead role in Top Gun, it doesn't strike me as that imbalanced for a cartoonist to say "Hey....you might also get fucking blown up for no good goddamn reason."

[OwnedByFerrets]

47. Bullshit

[inna]

49. "Disgusting?" Odd choice of words. It's realistic. It's the system that is "disgusting".

[xchrom]

7. recommend

[qb]

15. Oh, and the student loan repayment is only 2/3 of what they promise

(after taxes)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. Well, the dental plan wasn't all that great either. K&R

[sufrommich]

20. Hey, let's call our soldiers murderers and useful idiots. Surely

that will win the hearts and minds of our fellow americans and not contribute at all to the anti american label that the media tries to pin on liberals 24 hours a day.

[tomp]

36. are you saying each member of the military...

...has a personal responsibility for the actions of the whole (as opposed to being "useful idiots")?

[HughBeaumont]

25. K For later.

[mwrguy]

26. Sums it up perfectly.

K&R

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. kick

[indepat]

28. And the beat goes on and on; only the drummers change

:patriot:

[Arugula Latte]

29. This is the truth. "Fighting for Freedom" is a lie. People who sign up for this

military really should know they are not fighting to defend this country, they are going on the offense for U.S. corporations.

[napoleon_in_rags]

33. I don't like it. Feels a little like foreign propaganda....

like : "If you join the army this will happen to YOU!". I hear them on the policy point, but they should pass on the Cannibal Corpse album cover stuff: The over the top imagery never is really that impactful, like the anti-abortion people who stand around with the giant dead fetus signs in town here, people just leave disgusted at the protesters.

[cyrakitty]

35. Wow

very impressive - and moving

[GliderGuider]

37. I invite everyone try a simple empathy exercise, and see where it takes you.

It works like this:

Sit comfortably in a chair.
Place your feet flat on the floor.
Rest your hands in your lap.
Close your eyes.
Relax.
Take several deep, cleansing breaths.

Now feel yourself becoming the soldier in the image.

Look at your missing hand.
Feel the the wound in your belly.
See the world going dim and beginning to whirl around you.

Now think of all the people who love you - your parents, your brothers and sisters, your children, your wife or husband, your girlfriend or boyfriend.

Remember how much you needed to kill "the enemy" just a moment ago.
Think of what that means now.

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.

[FreeBillClinton]

38. Is this really accurate?

When have US troops fought in Italy since WWII?

[jerseyjack]

39. Back to General Smedley Butler.......

[tavalon]

40. Fuck, that is brutal

Unfortunately, too true, as well.

[dixiegrrrrl]

42. kicking!

[Abonides]

44. potent

Nice post, a very potent message. The image and the posts remind me of Tolstoy's "On civil disobedience", still relevant today.

[OwnedByFerrets]

46. K and R sometimes, the truth IS brutal

[inna]

51. Too late to rec - but I just gained new appreciation for Mr. Fish.

Brutal - and much needed doze of reality, esp. considering all pro-military-industrial-complex propaganda.

[GliderGuider]

53. A reflection on self-sacrifice for November 11

The word "sacrifice" comes from the Latin roots 'sacer' which means "sacred", and 'facere' which means "to make".
The term 'self-sacrifice' literally means "to make oneself sacred".

What roads do we travel to accomplish that personal apotheosis in our own lives?

[Rex]

54. It is a shitty dental plan.

But the GI bill ain't all bad...just not worth your life imo.