Obama raised taxes on the poor while lowering them for the rich.

[coti]

Why WOULDN'T he cut Social Security?

[SpartanDem]

1. When did he raise taxes on the poor?

[coti]

3. Just a few weeks ago, when he signed the bill that got rid of the Making Work Pay tax

credit, and the FICA reduction didn't make up for it enough for people making less than $20K a year.

Poor people's taxes went up for 2011.

[BzaDem]

30. Actually, the "bill" did not end the Making Work Pay credit. The credit was already going to end

since it was a credit in the stimulus bill with an expiration date. The fact that he didn't have 60 votes to extend part of his stimulus bill is not his fault, and does not mean he signed a bill getting rid of anything.

[Dawgs]

41. Why not make it part of the deal with Republicans?

He had no problem caving in on tax cuts for the rich; why not fight for continued tax breaks for the poor.

Your argument is pretty weak.

[coti]

62. Why WOULDN'T those tax credits be considered during the tax talks? I'm sure they were. nt

[hfojvt]

63. Why fight, when unconditional surrender is so much easier

and when you can just lie to the masses about your fantastic deal? http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/138

[bluestate10]

87. In some dreams, Obama not getting the poor $10 back for every $1 the poor pay

in taxes is a failure on Obama's part. People that have that view should sit and review tax tables for the last 70 years, the poor do not pay much in taxes, but such is fair because the poor need all of their earnings to pay for life's expenses. The honor of carrying the nation's tax burden has historically fell profoundly on the shoulders of the middle class and upper middle class.

[coti]

92. To you, it's apparently cool to raise taxes on the poor while giving FURTHER tax cuts to everyone

else.

If you don't see the problem with that, there's something wrong with you.

[UrbScotty]

2. Proof? (nt)

[coti]

4. Would you like to compare my pay stubs?

My FICA went down, but my federal withholding went way up- farther than the FICA went down.

I'm taking home less money now.

[JDPriestly]

10. I predicted this, and people said it would not happen.

Of course, if you earn more than a certain amount, your withholding goes up. The cut to the Social Security taxes is just a transfer of money from the Social Security trust fund to the general fund. That's what it is. Not all of the money in the payroll tax holiday will go to the general fund, but a large enough portion of it will.

Thanks for your post.

[hfojvt]

64. I showed it mathematically

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/135

Although I thought they had already adjusted the withholding, because there was that earlier fuss about the lower withholding that was part of the stimulus bill and sunsetted after a year.

[Obamanaut]

37. Adjust the federal withholding amount. nt

[northzax]

72. way up?

if you get paid once a month, your withholding went up $33.33. twice a month, $16.67. and it was a reversal of a credit from two years ago. is that really 'way' up?

[Bluebear]

82. True that.

[FreeJoe]

84. Too complicated

I tried to figure out how mine changed, but there are too many variables. Comparing my last all 2010 paystub to my first all 2011 paystub shows a small drop in federal income taxes and medicare taxes and a huge leap in OASDI. The former is probably due to some changes in before tax deductions. The latter is because they only take out OASDI for part of the year.

When I compare first 2010 paystub to first 2011 paystub, it is still confusing. My federal income taxes are way down. My OASDI dropped by about a third.

I really wish that we had a nice, simple tax system. Not a flat tax. That would be stupid. I'd like a simple, progressive tax with a few brackets and essentially no deductions for anything.

[bluestate10]

90. Put your pay stubs on the web as proof.

For one thing, if you are paid as little as you claim to earn, you are unlikely to get a reduction in FICA taxes. The rate decrease in FICA taxes impacts people that are paying the maximum rate of 6.5%. Second, if you earn as little as you claim, the amount that you claim to pay more in income taxes may amount to enough to buy a sandwich at the end of the month, that is before you get the refund check at the end of the year that will make up for the lost sandwiches plus plenty of other sandwiches unknown. I call BS.

[coti]

93. Everything you said is wrong and I'm not posting any of my financial information

online.

[bluestateguy]

5. This is false

[coti]

6. No, it is not. There are countless reports on it, and I also invite anyone

who makes less than $20K per year to chime in on this thread about what they see on their pay stubs.

Federal withholding went up because of the expiration of the Making Work Pay tax credit, which was more than the 2% FICA cut seen by those who make less than $20K per year.

[coti]

7. Here is, also, just the first article I found on taxes going UP for people making under $20K:

http://www.fivecentnickel.com/2011/01/07/did-your-federal-income-tax-withholding-increase-heres-why/

Check the comments, too.

[Freddie Stubbs]

54. Those taxes were scheduled to go up in Obama and Congress did not act

[coti]

59. ??? Obama worked out the deal with Republicans. A LOT of taxes were scheduled to go up. nt

[bluestate10]

89. I am a bit slow today. Let me read what you wrote s l o w l y so that

I understand. So according to your rationale the poor did not get the taxes that they do pay increased because of Obama's compromise, so the poor pay more in taxes after Obama's compromise? Ok, issues are clear now, up is down and down is up, and sideways is backwards.

[coti]

94. You must be drunk because you're not following the conversation well.

I have no idea what you're saying.

[leftstreet]

8. Actually it's true

It's a royal screwing

Approx 1 in 3 workers makes less than 20k, so it's a nice little revenue stream for the Ruling Class

[TacticalPeek]

9. No, sir - it is sadly true for tens of millions of earning < 20K.

http://money.msn.com/tax-tips/post.aspx?post=ffd7328b-cbe6-4f21-aba4-1e1f176d4696


Although you are certainly entitled to your own opinion about it,etc etc etc, apologies Senator Moynihan.

;)

[coti]

97. Kick nt

[Major Hogwash]

11. No shit! How many times have we debunked this right here at DU?

5 times, a dozen times, 15 times?

It's like people can't read here.

[Electric Monk]

12. Read the other replies to post #5 above yours, and here's Mr. Fish

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x224301

...while we're on this subject...

[Major Hogwash]

16. Seriously, a cartoon is YOUR source of reality?

Check in to the nearest cartoon factory and have your ink checked.

[Electric Monk]

17. That's all you got out of my post? Try again. nt

[RegieRocker]

38. What are you talking about Willis?

cartoons are a mainstay in this place!

[coti]

14. Oh, it's been debunked! Why didn't you tell my paycheck, which went down?

Why didn't you tell the MATH that says a 2% FICA cut for incomes less than $20K will not equal the $400 lost by the expiration of that tax credit?


0.02 times $20,000 = $400 FICA reduction

Anything less than that, and you don't break even on the $400 tax credit loss.


The loyalists won't even admit to it when the proof is right in front of their face.

[Statistical]

45. The $400 making work pay credit was already going to expire.

[coti]

56. How does that make the slightest difference? The tax credit was a part of tax policy, and the deal

he made left its renewal out.

As a result, taxes went up for those who most needed their money.

[coti]

65. In other words, all of the tax cuts were already going to expire. Why was the one that most

affected the poor, as compared to everyone else, allowed to?

[kath]

96. yeah, and the Bush tax cuts for the rich were "already going to expire"

but- somehow they didn't...

[TacticalPeek]

15. Can't read? Please look at this "Percentage Change in Aftertax Income" column

Please look at this "Percentage Change in Aftertax Income" column and explain to us how you read it?

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?Docid=2878

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RegieRocker]

39. They can read their check so obviously you haven't debunked

shit with your smoke and mirrors.

[Richard Steele]

36. No it isn't. I earned 14k last year, and it's very real to me. nm

[Statistical]

47. The making work pay credit was always intended to be temporary.

You paycheck is still larger than it was in 2007 (assuming the same income). Obama cut your taxes, just not as much as you would like.

[coti]

61. So were the rest of the tax cuts that were extended. Why wasn't the one for POOR PEOPLE extended?

Everyone else's was! In fact, everyone else was given FURTHER tax cuts, while poor people's taxes went up.

That's raising taxes on poor people, while cutting them for everyone else.

[jtown1123]

69. ding ding ding!

[Richard Steele]

85. Damn right. Not to mention the 'unofficial' taxes like the cost of food and gasoline....

The last time I paid $3.25 a gallon for regular gas,
B*SH was claiming that the Iraq invasion had caused
fuel prices to spike.

What's Obama's excuse?

[bighart]

55. Depends on what the definition of "is" is.

[subterranean]

13. Well, someone has to pay for those tax cuts for the rich.

[TheWraith]

18. Because he isn't a reptilian alien from the planet Xenu?

The bullshit people on DU will believe just astounds me.

[Fumesucker]

19. Did or did not Obama sign a tax increase for poor Americans?

Yes or no..

[northzax]

74. no, actually

he signed a bill two years ago giving a two year tax credit, for stimulus purposes. when that credit expired, it expired.

think of it this way. in 2009 most taxpayers got a $250 stimulus check from the IRS. in 2010, I didn't get one (did you?) does that mean that Obama signed a revenue bill (for 2010) that raised taxes on poor Americans?

[coti]

20. Which is probably also why he wouldn't raise taxes on people making less than $20K per year, while

lowering them for everyone else, right?

Which is a fact. Yes, he did that.

[TheWraith]

21. I pity everyone under $20k the extra $75 a year they'll lose.

Because clearly, to have offended you so badly, Obama had to have personally punched you in the face, taken the money out of your wallet, and grabbed your daughter's ass on the way out the door, if you're SO SURE that he personally hates you. :eyes:

[Fumesucker]

23. It's clear that he doesn't give a damn about those of us who are struggling..

Else he wouldn't have taken the money out of our threadbare pockets and given it to the haves and have mores, his base.

Edited for phrasing.

[WCGreen]

24. 75 bucks or 7,500 bucks....

A tax hike is a tax hike...

[coti]

25. And I'm sure you'll show that same pity when he cuts Social Security. nt

[democracy1st]

27. Yes 75 bucks and social programs being cut!

[RegieRocker]

40. Grow up and quit being nonsensical

[jbnow]

22. True but SO misleading. Taxes are slightly higher for some

lower income earners because the payroll tax cut is less for them than the expired workers tax credit in the stimulus bill offered. That went into effect almost immediately after stimulus bill passed as withholding were lowered. (It was that tax cut that polls show Americans didn't notice they got.)

But it was hardly a disregard for the lower income people. They did get extended or increased for the full two years the Earned Income Credit. It mostly benefits lower income parents of course (or VERY low income childless workers) but the income level it helps to is higher, the increase for additional children is higher as well as the base credit. A few thousand dollars extra a year can make a HUGE difference

The increased child tax credit and tuition credit is for the two years as well.

Even Dems in Senate had talked about there was no way they would extend the tax credit in stimulus because we couldn't afford it, saying that almost as soon as stimulus passed and I recall how angry that made me... but that is another story.

I don't know how many people noticed or commented on the increase in their pay checks that started spring 2009 but it's funny that Obama is getting blame here when he didn't get the credit then...

There are so many things Obama has done that bother me but this is just a misleading accusation. Yes, the pay went down slightly for some but it would have gone down a great deal more without the deal people are mad about.

[coti]

26. No, not misleading at all. The take-home pay of poor people- those who MOST NEED

their money- went down, while that of better-off people- everyone else- went up.

What, exactly, is misleading about that? I think it illustrates his priorities very well.

[jbnow]

29. It went up slightly compared to 2010. It is still lower than

the day he took office
And it is much better than it would have been if the deal had not been made
So what time line are we using?

Some of the expanded credits that continued also became refundable so lower income people who owe no taxes can still take advantage of them and get money sent to them, like the American Opportunity Credit and Child Tax credit. Making it refundable specifically benefits the low income earner as does the expanded earned income credit. Those changes don't benefit the better off at all.
(We could throw in that those on unemployment could be considered lower income and it has to be great relief not to face threat or reality of being cut off every month or two)

(And it is only those with payroll taxes employment that had income go up, which is not the same as everyone. Those with just unearned income and social security etc didn't have income go up or down per this deal.)
All workers got the payroll tax cut and that is obviously higher as you earn more, up to $106,800 when it flat lines. To the extent that this is higher than the 400/800 of expired work tax credit that is the higher take home pay for better off people. There is no special cuts for the better off.

I realize republicans were misleading calling possible expiration of bush tax cuts as a tax increase
So now are we doing the same thing regarding the tax credit that couldn't get renewed?

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Erose999]

42. Yeah, most people making under 20k live paycheck to paycheck. This will certainly effect them

even if its just a couple dollars per check. That's someone's morning coffee, or post-work beer that just got taken away.

[Erose999]

43. On the other hand I just checked my stub and I am bringing home $3.30 more per check. But I make

around 25k.

[Obamanaut]

48. Many, if not most, of the tax filers in those lower income brackets will

have no federal income tax burden at all, and may even qualify for the earned income tax credit - getting a check for all of their monies withheld during the year, plus more as a result of EITC.

With that in mind, they could adjust the amount being withheld from the paycheck to a zero amount, and with no federal income tax liability the weekly check goes up immediately. They just won't have IRS holding a tidbit for a refund at tax time.

[coti]

58. I do. I pay taxes. nt

[Obamanaut]

68. I am speaking of federal income tax only. Everyone pays sales tax on

most purchases, property tax, fees (tax) for licenses, etc. I am speaking only of federal income tax, for which many of lower income workers have no liability (burden) by virtue of the lower income and various allowances when they file in April.

Many are eligible for the earned income tax credit. If any monies are withheld from their checks and they GET EVERY CENT back when they file with the IRS in April, they have NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX LIABILITY (burden), and by virtue of the aforementioned tax credit get more in their refund check than they paid in during the year.

Miz O does taxes for many low income families every year (she doesn't charge anything), and we've seen this many times.

But many people don't understand the difference between NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX BURDEN and not paying taxes at all. Everyone pays the taxes listed earlier in the message block, even undocumented workers every time they go to the store.

[coti]

78. I'm telling you I pay federal income taxes. I just completed them for 2010,

and did not get all of my money back.

[Obamanaut]

79. Did you see the form for the Making Work Pay credit? Since we are

doing the taxes for 2010, is it not still in effect?

[coti]

80. Can you follow me here? Yeah, taking the credit, I still paid federal income taxes in 2010.

NOW, in 2011, I'm taking home even LESS because THAT tax credit wasn't extended- though everyone else's taxes got lowered.

[Obamanaut]

81. Gee, I merely asked if it is not true that the MWP is still in effect, and did you

see the form.

Take a breath.

[Major Hogwash]

83. Didn't you see the headline? It's Obama's fault. Obama bad, bad, bad.

And tomorrow Obama will strangle little kittens on tv!!!

[bighart]

76. And what to the ones that do pay income taxes?

Too bad for them I guess.

[Obamanaut]

77. Adjust their withholding such that their is nothing withheld from their

pay checks. It is easy to do. Why let the gov hold those weekly/bi weekly dollars until the end of the year. That money doesn't accrue any interest.

[Marr]

71. Well, you haven't considered the slogans and the chess moves, of course!

It's all very complicated! Much too complex for plebes to understand.

[Mimosa]

75. "Together We Thrive"

Somebody's thriving. And it isn't the working poor or the hanging on by our fingernails middle class. While both of these groups are holding on the ledge by our fingers the neo-robber barons and their vassals, the politicians, would love to stomp our hands and watch us fall.

[ipaint]

31. Yes, poor folks take it up the ass again for the middle class and rich.

What are we up to now 2-3 near future cuts to desperately needed funds in the food stamp program, a tax increase while the middle class and rich get cuts. Yup the old oft repeated liberal elite whine "It's the best we could do, wah, wah, wah..." falls way short of the mark again.

Can't wait to see what the elites are going to do with social security. It will definitely increase an already growing number of homeless poor over the age of 65. But when you have a president who can't choke out the word poverty because the term "middle class" needs to be repeated 20 times every 60 seconds what do you expect. Must pander and stroke the perpetually comfortable.

[trayNTP]

32. Everyone with a brain knows this.

If you make less than $20,000 a year ($40,000 for couples) your taxes went up under the tax deal.

All one has to do is get your information from more sources than the establisment news media (TV).

Another thing you didn't hear come out of most of the Democrats' mouths, including President Pushover, is everyone would have gotten a tax cut if the cut off point was $250,000, because everyone would have seen a tax cut on their first $250,000 including those who make more than that. This fact alone proves that it was all about giving millionaires what they wanted.

[Unvanguard]

34. By "raised taxes on the poor", you mean "let a stimulus program expire", right?

And by "lowering them for the rich", you mean "accepted a tax cut extension for the rich as part of the price of extending and increasing tax cuts for everyone else (including the poor)"?

[trayNTP]

35. whatever it takes...by any means necessary

[coti]

57. He didn't renew the tax credit that was so important to the poor, and their taxes went up.

Why would it make a difference when or by what means they were given the tax credit?

The deal he made resulted in increased taxes for poor folks, while cutting them even compared to 2010 for everyone else. That's what happened, and I'm sure it wasn't just an accident.

[Statistical]

44. He didn't. The making work tax credit would have expired anyways.

People are comparing money they were never going to get anyways as if it was going to be there in 2011 if mean ole Obama hadn't robbed them.

[katnapped]

50. Ah yes

That "Well that's the best he could do" excuse. Never gets old...

So what shall we expect for an encore next year? Turn over our bank accounts for the privelege of being allowed to live here?

[Statistical]

52. You taxes are lower under Obama than under Bush (which were lower than under Clinton)

Obviously not as low as you would like but it is false to claim Obama raised your taxes.

The only people who actually saw their taxes raised under Obama are the very rich (HCR bill included 3 new taxes on high earners).

[coti]

60. He definitely raised taxes on the poor from 2010 to 2011. nt

[phleshdef]

46. He prevented an increase that was actually substantial. Congress failed to renew MWP.

And its really not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

[ipaint]

49. Except if you scrounge around for pennies to buy toilet paper and soap.

But the comfortable liberal class is so far removed from that way of life they are literally clueless as to the damage their "but, but , but, we tried, we are powerless" whine inflicts on the working poor and terminally unemployed in this neverending depression.

[phleshdef]

51. If he hadn't signed this bill, scrounging for toilet paper and soap would be least of worries.

A 50% tax increase on the working poor's taxes without this bill or one like it having passed.

And calling this a depression is an insult to people that actually lived through a real depression. Things are not great, but give me a break.

[ipaint]

66. Maybe he could have actually taken a stand a insisted that under NO circumstances

would the rich and the middle class continue to enjoy a tax cut while the working poor did not. He could have demanded that the tax credit be extended to prevent the a tax increase on the poorest citizens.

But... no. The tax increase was allowed to happen without a peep from democrats or the president and the usual false framing of the whole fiasco, "it's our ONLY choice" was repeated ad nauseum as if there where no other choices and no way this president and democrats could have prevented a tax increase on the poorest americans.

It was their only choice because they defined it as such.

So the middle class and above get their tax cuts and the poor are told to eat it, it could have been worse. Typical liberal class war on the poor. And in their arrogance they huff and puff wondering how the lower classes could ever not support a democrat.

Comfortable class fools.

[ipaint]

67. No the real insult is a democrat ignoring the fact that millions of people are in a depression.

Raising taxes on the poor and tax breaks for everyone else, brilliant. It doesn't get much clearer than that.

Ignore at your own peril. The rot is creeping upward. It has been for 30 years, nothing stopping it now especially when democrats refuse to lift a finger to halt it.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bighart]

70. Just wondering how many of those defending the administration

on this actually make $20k or less per year, or $40k or less if you are married? I personally don't but have a daughter that graduated from college last year and can't get work in her field so she is working 2 part time jobs to get by and only making about $18k and I know for her in small changes in take home pay are a huge deal. I pay some of her bills just so she has some breathing room and doesn't have to spend literally every penny she makes on bills, food or gas to get to and from work.

[katnapped]

73. Very few, I'd imagine

That's how they can poo-pooh this off as nothing...doesn't affect them.

[bluestate10]

88. Good old class warfare.

The nuclear weapon of wingnuts and liberals. Don't confuse a person making more than 20k per year if single with those people not caring. I am confident that all regular contributors to DU care about the poor as much as the poor care about the poor. The fact is, Obama did NOT raise taxes for people making less than 20k per year. Obama's compromises does result in more pay for higher paid workers via the FICA tax reduction. But why does one think people that get the benefit and don't want or need the money are not giving it to charities? While your post causes tears for some, it is factually sterile and does nothing to push toward truly equitable tax policy.

[coti]

95. "The fact is, Obama did NOT raise taxes for people making less than 20k per year." Uh- yes, he did.

Find someone you know who makes less than 20k and ask to compare their paychecks.

Or just look at one of the many articles posted upthread.

You don't want it to be true, but it is. It's what happened. It's what he did.

[bluestate10]

86. Untrue.

The tax bill encoded important gains for middle class and poor americans. The rich has paid less as a percentage of their total pay since the founding of income tax. What makes one think that Obama can change that in one negotiation? Any such expectation is immeasurably unrealistic and counterproductive.

Unemployment benefits were dead in the water before Obama's compromise. Why do you not give Obama credit for delivering social benefits that even liberal heroes like Bernie sanders and Dennis Kucinich could not sniff at getting approved. Oh, revisionism, how great the world would be if it was what some insist it is.

[coti]

91. It's an irrefutable fact. It isn't "untrue" just because you don't want it to be true. nt