Teacher loses tenure for calling her 1st grade students "future criminals"

[apples and oranges]

NEWARK, N.J. -- A New Jersey administrative law judge has ruled that a first-grade teacher who wrote that she was a "warden for future criminals" on Facebook earlier this year should lose her tenured job.

The state education commissioner now has 45 days to accept, reject or modify the decision regarding Jennifer O'Brien.

The Paterson teacher posted her remark to 333 friends on March 28. But it was forwarded and several parents saw it.

But the judge called O'Brien's conduct "inexcusable."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/jennifer-obrien-new-jerse_n_1083947.html

Was the punishment too harsh?

[Tikki]

1. NO

Tikki

[Donnachaidh]

2. Not at all.

With that sort of attitude no parent can expect this woman to do anything other than act like a high-paid babysitter.

[apples and oranges]

11. That sounds about right

We're talking about 6 and 7 year old kids here. I can't imagine someone giving up on children that young! It sucks though, to lose a job over a facebook post. I'm torn.

[Donnachaidh]

13. I'm torn too -- but I actually had to deal with the 3rd grade teacher from hell

she was another one who was there for the paycheck, hated teaching, and spent just about all the time on parent teacher meetings bragging about her upcoming *wedding*.

These sorts don't deserve respect or tenure. They deserve a boot out the door.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. The punishement was uncalled for.

[Ian David]

4. In her defense, she WAS teaching a Gifted and Criminal class. n/t

[dkf]

5. It's dangerous to crack what you think is a joke nowadays.

[backtoblue]

44. +1

This is one reason why I do not have a Facebook anymore. Way too easy to post what's on your mind. Sometimes its best to keep your humor to yourself or in the company of close friends-not on a public social media.

[southernyankeebelle]

75. I don't have one any longer either. We seemed to be monitored by big brother

even if you aren't on facebook. It is unnerving to know that they can track your cellphone even when it is turned off and you know they are monitoring websites and comments people make. I know I have used curse words I wouldn't be to proud of. What ever happen to freedoms we are all losing in the name of terrorism.

[tabatha]

6. She should not even teach.

[truebrit71]

7. Stupid on her part, but the punishment is waaaaaaaaaay over the top...

...What was inexcusable exactly, that on a personal webpage someone said something that hurt someone else's feelings? Isn't that free speech?

If she said it in school, or on the school website, or during a parent-teacher conference, that would be something else entirely...but she didn't...

The judge is way off base on this one IMHO...

[whathehell]

19. What do you know about Newark, Truebrit 71?

It's about 98% Black and Latino...Labelling

minority kids of such a young age smacks of racism.

Her biased attitude can't do her kids any good.

[truebrit71]

39. I don't care if it's comprised of 100% green-striped people...

..what she said was for her circle of friends, on HER FB page...if she'd done it in a venue where she was being a representative of her school, then it would be another matter entirely...

What I say on my FB page is none of my employers business...just like what I say on my cell phone, or in my personal e-mail is none of their damned business either...

You choose to see racism, that may very well be the case, but at home, on her computer, she should be free to be as racist, or non-racist, or stupid or non-stupid as she pleases...

I agree, her attitude, if she actually feels that way, and approaches her job that way, will do her kids no good at all, but that's not the question here becuase she didn't say those things in the classroom, or on/with school property. She said them as private citizen.

Big difference.

[whathehell]

43. As many here have pointed out, the internet isn't "private"

Deal with it.:eyes:

[truebrit71]

52. Whether it was on the internet, at the ball park, in the shower, or in the fucking bus...

...it doesn't matter...You cannot be fired for something you say when you aren't working???

Holy fuck, if that was the case, NO-ONE would ever be able to keep their jobs!!!

[Hassin Bin Sober]

57. Your opinion doesn't come close to matching reality.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[entanglement]

72. Could a teacher with avowed contempt for the children she teaches be effective?

Could she possibly harm these children in some way if allowed to continue her employment?
Do racialists have any business teaching in taxpayer-funded public schools?

I'd answer no, yes and no, in that order. Ergo, it was reasonable to terminate her employment with the school.

The second issue is particularly troubling. Racialist and proto-racialist white women avoid contact with minorities as far as possible. They may hate and despise minorities, but few of them wish to be continually confronted with "triggers" for their hate at that stage. So why did this woman want to teach or have anything at all to do with minority kids?

In any case, there are many liberal private schools with overwhelmingly white demographics that would be more suitable for her.

ed. Paragraph 3

[truebrit71]

79. Wow, you must be some athlete because you are jumping to some pretty amazing conclusions there...

You have been able to deduce that this teacher is a racialist or proto-racialist simply from her FB post and the usual DU flying-off-the-handle-with-outrage brigade??

I am impressed.

What I read was that someone said something that in hindsight was probably not the best thing to have posted on the internet possibly winding up severely damaging her career because some busy-body somewhere decided to drop the dime on her.

[LanternWaste]

81. It is, by definition, the business of anyone who sees or reads it.

"What I say on my FB page is none of my employers business..."

It is, by definition, the business of anyone who sees or reads it. No more and no less than a highway billboard... :shrug:

[oberliner]

46. She doesn't teach in Newark

According to the article, she teaches in Paterson.

[whathehell]

49. Paterson's demographics are similar.

[pampango]

22. You are right. Saying something to your friends, away from the school environment

is different from saying something to students, parents, etc. That doesn't make it a smart thing to say or post, but it is not a fireable offense. Some punishment or at least warning and training is appropriate, but not firing.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

37. She said it in public and that's good enough.

Everyone knows one doesn't have first amendment right as it pertains to your employer. You have the right to voice your opinion but that doesn't mean the EMPLOYER can't sanction you.

Now, it gets a little tricky(er) when the government is ALSO your employer. Government employees are afforded MUCH MORE 1st amendment rights regarding their employer (the government) but that doesn't mean the entire employer/employee relationship gets tossed out the window either.

Pickering v. Board of Education lays ground rules for the government employee and free speech rights. In short, the school board can fire if the board feels her views/actions impede the teacher's proper performance of his daily duties in the classroom.

The teacher fails miserably on Pickering tests:

http://www.rbs2.com/afree2.htm

The opinion in Pickering lists several intertwined factors that judges are to consider during this balancing test:

1.) Are "the statements ... directed toward any person with whom would normally be in contact in the course of his daily work as a teacher"? The Court mentioned that "personal loyalty and confidence" are necessary for "close working relationships", but not for the relationship between teacher and either the Board of Education or the superintendent of the schools. 391 U.S. at 569-570, also n.3.

Yes. She has contact with the students (criminals)she shows disdain for and their parents.

2.) Is there an issue of "maintaining either discipline by immediate supervisors or harmony among coworkers"? 391 U.S. at 570.

Yes.

3.) Did plaintiff's statement's have a "detrimental" effect or impact on the "actual operation of the schools"? 391 U.S. at 570-571, 573, also n.1 at 580.

Yes.

4.5) Is the issue on which plaintiff spoke "a matter of legitimate public concern"? 391 U.S. at 571. "This Court has also indicated ... that statements by public officials on matters of public concern must be accorded First Amendment protection despite the fact that the statements are directed at their nominal superiors." 391 U.S. at 574.

No, unless you consider her student's possible future as prisoners a legitimate matter for public discussion.

5.) Did plaintiff's public statements "impede the teacher's proper performance of his daily duties in the classroom"? 391 U.S. at 572-573, also n.5.

Yes.

6.) Did the plaintiff's speech include "false statements knowingly or recklessly made by him"? 391 U.S. at 569, 573-574 (citing the libel standard in New York Times v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254 (1964) and its progeny).


Maybe. But I think this pertains to actual defamation. You can't defame a group.

[truebrit71]

40. Nope. You can say, publicly, whatever the hell you want about your employer...

...or have you never been out for drinks with co-workers before?

What I do/see/eat/fuck/drink/read/say/watch when I'm off the clock is no-one's business but mine. My employer can go spit.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

42. You can say whatever you like. And your employer can fire you for it. End of story. No recourse.

(absent any union contracts. Contracts that certainly won't cover calling your students criminals)

Of course, the rules may be different in jolly old England - I don't know.

[truebrit71]

51. They cannot fire me for something I say...

...when I am not working...

FYI, I'm not in Jolly Old...

[Hassin Bin Sober]

54. Go post on FaceBook that the company you work for is a shit-hole and all your customers are assholes...

Send the link to your employer and a several customers and get back to us with the results. Maybe we will take up a collection for you :rofl:

[truebrit71]

78. Yeah, because that's EXACTLY what happened here isn't it...

:rofl::eyes:

[alphafemale]

59. You really think that if your boss was nearby and overheard you calling him/her an asshole.

...that they couldn't fire you.

That this is somehow a part of your Bill of Rights.

Yeah.

Go ahead and believe that.

[truebrit71]

80. Off the clock, not at work? You bet your ass I believe that...

...

[Hassin Bin Sober]

82. That just makes you woefully ignorant. Good luck with that.

While you are afforded SOME protection regarding "airing grievances" about working conditions you certainly have no rights to bad mouth customers, personally insult co-workers and superiors, or in the above case, students.

Teachers have some 1st amendment protections because the employer is the government but private "at will" employers can fire you for just about anything.

[truebrit71]

83. "at will" employers can fire you because they don't like the way you look...

...Doesn't mean I don't have the absolute right to say what I want, about whomever I want...

[Hassin Bin Sober]

84. Sure you have the "right." No one is disputing that. Employer has the "right" to fire you.

That's the concept you can't seem to grasp.

[truebrit71]

85. In an 'at will' scenario sure...

...this particular case is dealing with a tenured teacher who said something, off the clock, away from school, to a circle of friends...they don't get to fire you for that...

[Hassin Bin Sober]

86. The supreme court says differently. They laid out the guidelines. I posted them.

[HopeHoops]

8. That's a tough call. I don't approve of the suppression of her opinion, but it was in a rather....

...public forum likely to be viewed by parents and she should certainly post an apology. That also isn't a particularly good attitude for a teacher to have. Think about it - "A is for Arson...B is for Burglary...C is for Capital Punishment...D is for Defenestration...E is for Eviscerate..."

I think she should get a public hearing with an opportunity to field grievances from parents and make her own decision. Live with it or not.

[Mz Pip]

9. I have always made a point

of never posting anything on FB that I would be uncomfortable having the general public reading.

It was a pretty dumb comment to make on a public site. Maybe she'd had a bad day and was just being hyperbolic. The problem with email and posts is that the reader doesn't get to see the emotion behind it. Was she serious? Was she joking? Hard to tell.

[JuniperLea]

12. Yep, yep, and yep...

There's an unwritten PR rule that says never say anything in public you don't want to hear on the evening news or read in the morning paper. I take this very seriously!

I've never thought it a good idea to broadcast every little thought. Sometimes we humans think or say things we wouldn't approve of from others... nature of the beast.

You can't put the toothpaste back into the tube. Anyone who teaches impressionable youth should be doubly cautious!

[alphafemale]

60. Yep. Anything posted to FB might as well be shouted on a corner.

It's not private. Not in ANY way.

[JVS]

10. Touched a nerve, huh?

[Spirochete]

14. Not a very funny joke

but I dunno about losing her job over it. Maybe a suspension and some keeping-one's-foot-out-of-one's-mouth classes...

[whathehell]

15. No, not at all....How dare she "profile" six year olds that way?...Terrible. n/t

She was especially dumb to post it on FB.

[unblock]

16. she should know not to use the word "future" in that context.

but seriously, the judge should look up the word "tenure".

[Donald Ian Rankin]

17. Unless there's more to it than in the OP, this seems massively excessive.

[whathehell]

24. Newark NJ is about 98% Black and Latino

That's what you might not be getting in the OP..She's

"profiling" these very young minority kids as "coming to no good".

Terrible bias to project on kids that young.

[oberliner]

47. The story has nothing to do with Newark

The school in question is neither in nor near Newark.

It is in Paterson.

[whathehell]

50. Since you posted the same information to me twice,

guess I should give you the same answer twice: The demographics are similar.

[oberliner]

55. Well you did mention Newark twice

I just wanted to get the correct information out there to those who might have seen either of your posts mentioning Newark.

Also, I do not agree with your assessment of the demographics of Paterson.

[whathehell]

67. To different people, I believe.

[oberliner]

74. Didn't mean any rudeness/disrespect

I just know that people aren't always careful readers and might have been confused.

No offense intended.

In terms of the actual story, do you know the race/ethnicity of the teacher?

Would that be relevant to your hypothesis do you think?

[whathehell]

76. Okay.

I don't know the race or ethnicity of the teacher

and I don't know that's it's relevant.

[marmar]

69. Actually, the Paterson school district is 90 percent Latino & African American

The Paterson Public School District is a diverse, urban school district located in northern New Jersey. The third largest school district in New Jersey, the Paterson Public School District enrolls 28,400 students in preschool to grade 12. The population in the Paterson Public School District mirrors the demographic trend of urban communities in New Jersey: 60 percent of all students are of Hispanic origin; 30 percent are African-American; and approximately 9 percent are of Caucasian, Middle Eastern or Asian descent. Nearly 50 percent of all students in Paterson speak a primary language other than English, with a total of 37 languages spoken in district schools.

http://www.paterson.k12.nj.us/departments/superintendent/Paterson_history.html

[oberliner]

73. Very different demographics than Newark

Paterson, as your link indicates, is majority Hispanic.

Newark, on the other hand, is majority African-American.

[marmar]

91. But the effect of calling a student body that's 90 percent minority "future criminals".....

.... is the same.

[Bok_Tukalo]

18. Future?

<OPE>

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

20. It depends on the context

Was it expressed in jest? Was she writing about some of the unruly things her students did and playfully calling them little future criminals? Parents often joke about their own kids and call them little monsters. They usually don't really mean it. I can't stand the ultra conservative authoritarian zero tolerant policies of institutions in today's society. If a reasonable person could tell that the teacher was joking and wasn't being mean-spirited, then I disagree with the decision. But if it's clear that she hates her job and hates dealing with children, then I would probably support some kind of penalty.

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. +1.

In general: she has some 'splainin to do.

[WI_DEM]

21. It's dangerous to post anything these days regarding your work

it is something she could have gotten away with joking about individually (perhaps) with friends, but not posting it. That said I'm not sure she should lose tenure. Perhaps some less severe punishment. I'd have to know what her overall record is before endorsing such a thing. She could have had a very bad day and posted something very stupid on her facebook page out of frustration. Should perhaps years of good work with her students be ignored? I don't know.

[Pale Blue Dot]

23. As a teacher of inner-city students, about 70% free and reduced lunch, I say,

Hell no, the punishment wasn't too harsh. IMO, this person should never be allowed to teach again.

If you don't believe in your students and the power of your profession, then why the hell are you teaching?

[dkf]

28. I'm glad you feel that way.

It's very demoralizing when teachers post how little they can do for kids who have been dealt a rough hand.

[Pale Blue Dot]

30. It's not easy, and I hate when non-educators pretend there is an "easy" solution.

However, that doesn't mean I don't believe in my students, myself, or my profession.

[dkf]

56. Yup, not easy at all.

But believing is half the battle. Without it, what chance does a kid have?

Thank you for not giving up on kids. It takes a whole lot of patience I imagine.

[w8liftinglady]

53. My partner felt the same way

99% of his 5th graders live below the poverty level.

"I have to assume the best,and grab on to that"- his quote,not mine.

He had an 87% success rate on standardized tests last year- awesome for the school he teaches for.

[YvonneCa]

62. As a former teacher of inner-city students...

...about 99% free/reduced lunch, I agree with you. Teachers must model high standards...in addition, posting something like that on Facebook shows very poor judgment.

[Donnachaidh]

70. BRAVO!

Teachers who CARE are a joy to deal with. I speak as a parent who is still in touch with the good ones who taught my kid.

[Taverner]

25. So much for the RW myth that tenured teachers are "unfireable"

[coyote]

26. Start an illegal war based on lies, kill millions of civilians....get off scott free...

but say something on facebook which is not politically correct....then lets burn the bitch, fire her, and never allow her to work in her field again.

Yeah sounds fair.

[Pale Blue Dot]

29. False dichotomy

Of course all of those other things were wrong and should have been punished. However, it's a logical fallacy to make the leap that because they weren't, we should ignore what this woman did. As an educator, I am appalled at what this "teacher" wrote, and I wouldn't want her anywhere near my students. She deserved to be fired.

Oh, and Bush & Co. should be punished too, but that's completely irrelevant here.

[coyote]

35. Stupid comment....yes

but to lose her job over it...totally over the top. People get frustrated and she chose the wrong avenue to express them. She should have been reprimanded at most. However, I have no doubt that this has finished her career as a teacher.....a very harsh punishment for 1 stupid comment.

[truebrit71]

41. Not quite apples to apples, but I hear what you're saying...

...doesn't really seem fair...

[hughee99]

48. If * and company aren't going to go to jail for what they did, then NO ONE

should get in trouble for anything. I, for one, would be excited to know that my child's teacher thinks of them as a future criminal. I'd tell them every day, "Now just remember, you want to be the kind of criminal that makes a lot of money because THEY don't go to jail, so study hard for your teacher."

[Xithras]

27. Context is everything but...

...tenure is a tool to protect good teachers from bad administrators. It should never be used as a tool to protect bad teachers from termination.

If the teacher genuinely saw her students as future criminals, then no, the punishment fits. A person with those views has no business teaching. If it was a joke, then the punishment is over the top.

There isn't enough information here to determine which is which. Did she have a history of such comments? What was her classroom repertoire with her students? We need context to determine whether or not this is justified.

[JoePhilly]

31. Facebook is the root of all evil ...

Sure, set up a Facebook page. Enjoy how the people you know make fools of themselves.

And feel free to post pictures of your dog, or of your vacation to Disney.

Post stories about how funny it was when your daughter caught you leaving money as the tooth fairy, but then how she then mmediately asked ... "but can I still KEEP the money?"

But ... never ... Never ... NEVER ... post anything meaningful on Facebook.

Do not post your political views. Do not talk about the neighbors.

And NEVER ... under no circumstances, should you VENT about the various frustrations at your job. Unless you want to get fired ... and have potential future employers see what you posted.

The most controversial thing you should post on facebook is along the lines of this ...

"I wish slower moving traffic would try to stay in the right lane during rush hour".

This has been a public service announcement.

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. Sounds like she didn't like her job very much

[Gabi Hayes]

38. curious, here: what's the context of that picture you posted?

+

-

?

[Freddie Stubbs]

88. I support President Obama and his education policies

[Bucky]

33. If it was an isolated incident, obviously it's too harsh. You can't lose seniority over two words.

Something tells me this wasn't an isolated incident, however.

[Poll_Blind]

34. I still cannot fathom why anyone would want to use FaceBook or any of that.

It turns everyone into a politician as far as having to defend remarks or the context of remarks made sometimes years ago!

Years and years ago when FaceBook came out there was no way I was going to use it because it was Web 2.0- which nowdays FB has eclipsed beyond all imagination. I use NoScript for Firefox and about 20-30 percent of all the sites I go onto are cross-scripting or otherwise communicating with FaceBook.

Seriously, I doubt there are many people who can use something like FaceBook and NOT get fucked over somehow, information-wise.

PB

[Octafish]

36. I've been to Newark.

Truly great and wonderful people I met there -- including the cops.

[oberliner]

45. The story has nothing to do with Newark

The teacher teaches in Paterson.

[Octafish]

63. Dateline said 'NEWARK.'

Sorry, I don't know anyone in Paterson.

I DO have a lot of friends in Roebling.

[oberliner]

64. I'm guessing that's where the NJ state education commission is based

Where the administrative law judge made the ruling.

You got a lot of friends!

[NoGOPZone]

89. and great Portuguese and Brazilian food nt

[Blue_Tires]

58. wow...some "friends"

"Hey parents!! Look at what the teacher thinks about your kids!!"

Yeah, she was dumb for posting it, but I don't understand what kind of friend would knowingly get another friend fired...

[alphafemale]

61. Yeah Friendship is more important where children are concerned. Ask Joe Paterno, nt

[athenasatanjesus]

65. I'd have to see her facial expression while she said that before I can judge.

It could have been a harmless joke.

[midnight]

68. K&R...

[NYC_SKP]

71. Put simply, I want my kids' teachers to be a hell of a lot smarter than that.

And better paid, too.

x(

[oberliner]

77. She claims that one of her students hit her

O'Brien has previously claimed she wrote the post in exasperation after several students disrupted her lessons, and after one boy had hit her.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57321666-504083/first-grade-teacher-should-lose-job-over-facebook-post-rules-n.j-judge/

[Hassin Bin Sober]

87. That's a pretty slick maneuver - if it works.

Tying her comments to "working conditions" MAY give her some legal cover. Maybe.