What the Bible really says about gays

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/ontiveros/8174971-452/what-the-bible-really-says-about-gays.html

sue ontiveros [e-mail] October 16, 2011 10:41AM

If something is repeated often enough, it can become, well, gospel truth.

Countless times people have told me that as “good Christians” they cannot accept homosexuality because it’s against their faith. “It’s in the Bible,” they’ll explain.

I found it hard to believe that the same Christianity that preaches “love thy neighbor” could single out gays for exclusion. Yet I couldn’t argue because I’m not much of a Bible reader. I figured they knew what they were talking about.

I was wrong.

[Crazy Dave]

1. I've heard the same three sermons over and over all my life

No matter which church or denomination the only three things they ever preach about is:

1. Being gay is evil.

2. Pre-marital sex is evil.

3. Not giving 10% or more of your gross income is evil.

I've yet to hear a "Don't abuse or cheat on your wife" sermon yet.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. There Are Open And Affirming Churches

I know a UCC minister who has married gay couples.

[Crazy Dave]

5. I know

I should clarify that I was being general with my post but if you turn on the TV that's the main and usually only three sermons you'll ever hear.

[Brother Buzz]

8. dupe

[Brother Buzz]

9. Glich?

[LynnTTT]

6. Try the Unitarians.

You won't hear any of that at a Unitarian Universalist church. below are their 7 principles. I personally could live without the drumming circles that have gotten so popular :-) but otherwise it's agreat congregation.

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
Unitarian Universalism (UU) draws from many sources:

Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit;
Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

[unblock]

7. gotta figure there'd be gay orgies in the pews every night if it weren't for the constant warnings.

they spend so much time reminding themselves and their constituency not to have gay sex, you gotta figure the temptation must be so strong for them.

[abelenkpe]

2. Wish it actually listed the passages and what they really mean

but guess I'll watch the movie to find out. :)

My catholic tea pot mother is convinced the bible supports her bigotry.

[TheWraith]

10. It's fairly straightforward.

The most common one cited is Leviticus 18:22. "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." (KJV)

First off, let's note that this is listed as "abomination," while the next passage (Lev 18:23) says of having sex with animals "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion."

It's also touched on again in Leviticus 20:13. "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Let's also note that this says nothing about women not lying with women. Apparently, lesbianism is okay.

But while Lev 18:22 and 20:13 are fairly straightforward, they're also massively archaic. Exodus and Leviticus contain vast numbers of similar laws of the ancient Hebrews which nobody takes seriously today. For instance, bans on wearing clothes made out of two kinds of thread, or planting different crops side by side, or touching the skin of a pig.

The other most commonly cited story is the story of Sodom, where the word "sodomy" comes from. In very short, two foreigners show up in town, and go into the home of a resident alien named Lot. A group of men from the town show up and demand that Lot give them the two strangers so they can "know" them. This is generally interpreted as an intention to gang-rape them, possibly followed by execution. Twisted, but a not uncommon behavior back then as a means of basically threatening outsiders and foreigners to stay away, so as not to be seen as an easy target for invasion.

Notably in Judaism, where the story comes from, the "sin of Sodom" is regarded as inhospitality towards strangers, not anything sexual. This is actually repeated by Jesus, citing Sodom as an example of inhospitality. Hospitality rules have historically been very important in the Middle East--when you live in an arid or desert climate, turning away a traveler could mean that person's death.

That brings us to the New Testament. The only real mentions of homosexuality in the New Testament are the writings and opinions of Paul. You may remember him as the guy who also endorsed the owning of slaves, and pretty much the owning of women. So not exactly what you'd call a great source with universally applicable views in the modern era. Even so, he only referred to homosexuality directly twice. Once in Romans 1:26-27, "Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

The second time, listing among people God didn't like "arsenokoitēs." Technically this isn't the common ancient Greek word for homosexuals, and nobody's entirely sure what it means, although it's usually translated as "sodomites." It's also used elsewhere in Greek writing though to refer to temple prostitution, and later in Christian writings by John of Constantinople to describe something else, "many men commit the sin of arsenokoitia with their wives." In the context, good money says it's probably referencing non-procreative sex acts, possibly anal sex.

[snooper2]

13. "they're also massively archaic."

Whatever,

You don't get to pick and choose the happy parts of the bible to follow.

That's why fundamentalist Muslims are a greater danger then fundie Xtians, they actually follow their holy book.

When's the last time you shot your neighbor in the face for working on a Sunday? :rofl:

[TheWraith]

21. That's absurd.

"You don't get to pick and choose the happy parts of the bible to follow."

On the contrary, ANYONE who claims to derive anything at all from the Bible does exactly that. Otherwise, you're going to spend your life trying to reconcile a shitload of archaic and often contradictory rules, none of which have any real-world practicality in this day and age. Even the fundies do the same thing, even though they bullshit themselves into believing that they're taking the entire Bible as the literal word of God.

[snooper2]

24. Isn't the Bible supposed to be the word of god?

That's what everyone says...plus about a thousand websites out there. Not absurd at all, if you want to believe in fairy tales you should go ahead and believe it all. If you want to believe Jack and the Beanstalk, you can't just believe in Jack. You have to believe in the ogre's as well.

Like I said, Xtians don't really follow their holy book. I guess you can say the Phelps try to, they are pretty close. I still don't think they have ever gone around smiting their neighbors for working on a Sunday :rofl:


Go do a google search on "is the bible the word of god" - Jesus fixed it so it will auto-fill for you :)


http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibletru.html

God has revealed Himself in the Bible without error. The Bible itself claims this inerrancy (2 Timothy 3:16-17 (4); Matthew 5:18 (5); etc.). Let's look at some of the proofs for the Bible's claim to be the infallible word of God.

Archaeological evidenceThe first proof we have testifying to the reliability of the Bible is the archaeological evidence. Nelson Glueck, a respected Jewish archaeologist claims: "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever contradicted a biblical reference." (6) The liberals made wild claims against the Bible a hundred years ago but now they are silent. This is not true of other religions. The Mormon claim for inspiration of the Book of Mormon has been categorically condemned by the Smithsonian Institute because of the fallacies shown by archaeology; this is not so with the Bible. A.N. Sherwin-White, a respected classical historian at Oxford says, "For Acts the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming...", although, not being a Christian, he still regarded it as being "propaganda."(7)

[ismnotwasm]

18. It's my understanding that those are political passages

Kind of.
Especially in the case of Paul and the NT there were still religions around that used sex in certain rituals, and this was an expanding time for Christians. Didn't want to lose converts. I forget what cults I'd have to go look it up. I think Elaine Pagles covers that topic in her books as do other scholars. I think there is evidence of actual misinterpretation in the OT as well.

So it's all bullshit. I'm not a bit religious but I have friends who are Gay Christians, and they have the same right to be 'saved' as anybody else who believes in the Christian faith. Besides, I always figured, if it was that important, why did Jesus stay quiet on the topic?

[abelenkpe]

20. Thank you!

This is great information. I will research it a bit more and watch the movie. It will help a lot next time I visit my family back east ;)

[TheWraith]

22. You're welcome.

The most important part to remember is, basically, that 99% of the "rules" laid down in the Bible are ones nobody adheres to anymore, not even the fundies. It's said, with equal authority to the passages condemning homosexuality, that slavery is acceptable, polygamy is permitted, cursing your parents results in stoning, and that a rapist can buy his previously virginal victim to make her his wife. Yes, seriously. Deuteronomy 22:28-29. The newer versions try to whitewash that by saying if a man "entices" a virgin, but the original text pretty much says that no matter how he has her, he can buy her for the "bride price" of 50 pieces of silver.

I really doubt many people support the idea of rapists being able to buy virgins, yet that is treated in the Bible as being law, just as much as the Old Testament prohibitions against homosexuality.

[closeupready]

4. I can't be bothered with all these religious wackos anymore. I just cut them out of my life.

End of story. They are too often mentally ill and twisted by the demands of their supernatural sky deities.

[MuseRider]

11. Oooh thank you!

I just downloaded it from Netflix. This could be very helpful since I have all but given up talking to the Bible quoters. I don't know enough Bible to talk with them and they see that right away. I am sick of being hounded by it all. Thank you so much!

[GeorgeGist]

12. If they dared eat from the tree of knowledge ...

they wouldn't depend on The Bible to tell them right from wrong.

[Arugula Latte]

14. Sad anyone puts any stock in this book other than as a cultural artifact.

[Major Nikon]

16. One of the reasons slavery lasted for so long is because people said the bible sanctioned it

Years later people used the bible as justification for Jim Crow laws.

There's nothing new about the bible being used for bigotry and oppression.

[Arugula Latte]

19. And also for justification for raping and plundering the Earth.

"dominion over the animals..." and so on. Remember when Reagan's asshat of an Interior Secretary, James Watt, said we didn't need to worry about protecting the environment because Jesus was coming back soon? :eyes:

[RainDog]

23. or patriarchal laws that give women second-class status

this has been a constant of too many religions because they arose from unenlightened cultures. to fail to understand cultural constraints of the thinking of those from the past is... just stupidity.

literalism fails over and over and is selectively applied to uphold prejudices.

[progressoid]

15. link to the film website:

http://www.fishoutofwaterfilm.com/

[Kurmudgeon]

17. Christ loved everyone, said "judge not lest ye be judged" He didn't hate gays.

Too many have used The Bible for their own purposes. Even if you don't believe, read so you know when it's being misquoted against you.