I swear if one more person defends him because he report it to his boss - I'm gonna scream

[LynneSin]

What if that was your child in the shower?

What if that was your lil brother or sister?

What if that was you?

And especially what if that was your kid in 2005 who was molested - 3 years AFTER the powers to be at Penn State including Joe Paterno were well aware that Sandusky was a pedophile. As a parent how would you have felt that this could have been prevented had someone called the police years earlier.

Anyone who claims this 'Oh Paterno did what he was suppose to do and reported it to his superior'

What he was suppose to do was call the cops. He should have done it or encouraged someone in that gang to have called.

Mike McQueary witnessed the molestation and he didn't call the police
McQueary told his father what happened and the father didn't call the police
McQueary called Paterno and Paterno didn't call the Police
Paterno called Curley, the PSU Athletic Director, and he didn't call the police
Curley called Spanier, the PSU President, and he didn't call the police.

So tell me, how did that fucked up chain of command benefit those kids?

You see a child being molested you call the police. Had Paterno and the others called the police back then they would have been heros. Today they are zeros.

[FarLeftFist]

1. Thank You! This is ridiculous all around. He should MAKE SURE their is a follow-up.

This isn't a petty little crime. This is disgusting and sickening beyond epic proportions.

[LynneSin]

6. I wouldn't have cared if it wasn't him that made the call as long as it was one of them

it's that simple.

[rhett o rick]

79. It's appropriate to follow the chain of command as long as something is done.

When nothing is done, then each was responsible. I feel that those they know about abuse w/o speaking out are as guilty as the abuser. And that includes parents that allow their spouses to abuse the children.

[Old_Ed_inVN]

160. Chain of command

There is no chain of command when a real human sees a crime being committed. If I see a kid or anyone being raped, I do not walk away & call for advice and then stroll over to tell my boss.
Heck, I am only semi-human & I wouldn't do that.

[rhett o rick]

81. And another point. I see a double standard. Society seems to take abuse of boys less seriously than

girls. IMO if it had been a girl in the shower, all hell would have broken loose as it should in either case.

Thanks for the post.

[JDPriestly]

100. Very true, and so the generations of abusers regenerate themselves.

[freshwest]

125. +1

[catrose]

133. Would it?

Many girls and women in the 90s came out and talked about being abused, including me. We were called deranged liars and other less polite terms. Then around 2000 the Catholic Church scandals started, with a majority of the publicized victims being male. There was wailing and gnashing of teeth over the boys' trauma--and no one called them liars, that I heard. It was pretty painful. So I'm not sure a girl would have been more quickly defended, but I realize I'm just going on my own experience.

[rhett o rick]

142. i am sorry for you ordeal, but I think society accepts abuse of boys more. The Catholic Church is

a good example. Decades and more have seen this and yet still a very minor public concern.

[janet118]

156. I believe you are right . . .

at least in regards to the Catholic Church. The abuse of women and girls is still pretty much a protected secret there. I don't find the shower analogy useful for too many reasons to list. I would hope that anyone who witnessed an adult having sex with a child would report it immediately. I do believe that male "clubs" or cultures are more likely to protect each other's secrets from the eyes of women and non-members. There's a long history of secret societies among powerful men. Among women, not so much.

[roguevalley]

136. they just announced that this asshat won't be in the game

Saturday because of death threats and violence threats. THEY ARE GIVING A PEDOPHILE ENABLER MORE PROTECTION THAN THE BABIES! FUCK PSU!

[City Lights]

2. K&R...thank you for saying it!

:thumbsup:

[WinkyDink]

3. And moreover, PA Public Education law mandates reporting to the POLICE.

[Critters2]

102. That's what I figured. In Illinois, mandated reporters--including all educators--

are to report to either the police or the Department of Children and Family Services. After that, if you want to tell your boss, too, well, good on ya! But your first call must be to the state or the police. I assumed it was the same in most states.

[Critters2]

103. I like to think that my first act would have been to intervene to stop the rape. nt

[Critters2]

164. Delete. Wrong place. nt

[pnwmom]

146. You are being misinformed about PA law. It's not the same as in most states.

PA is one of a handful of states that allows people to report to their superiors instead of the police. Only the people at the top of an organization are required to report to the police.

[Old_Ed_inVN]

161. For a moment, forget the law.

WWJD ? Or maybe a real person. I hope that I am never in a position to help you if you are attacked. Sooner or later, I will report it to someone.

[rucognizant]

135. Jesus...............

I would have stepped into that shower stall & stopped him myself!

[pnwmom]

144. No, it actually doesn't. Not in PA.

Only the people at the top have the obligation to report to the police.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/penn-stat...


When Joe Paterno, the ousted Penn State football coach, was confronted with a possible case of child rape, he notified his bosses rather than call the police or the child-abuse hotline. That was all Pennsylvania law required him to do, yet in most other states the failure to call could be a crime.

In more than 40 states, the prevailing policy is that such reports must be made to police or child-protection authorities swiftly and directly, with no option for delegating the task to others and then not following through.

Already, the Penn State scandal has sparked calls for Pennsylvania to toughen its law. State Rep. Kevin Boyle says he will introduce a bill that would require mandated reporters — including school and hospital employees — to notify police themselves rather than pass their information on to superiors at work.

“It is clear that a loophole exists in our law,” Boyle said. “My legislation would close that loophole by requiring those who are aware of the abuse to report it to law enforcement authorities, rather than simply following an in-house chain of command.”

A review by The Associated Press of the abuse-reporting laws of all 50 states showed that Pennsylvania is one of only about a half-dozen states where the protocol for staff members of schools, hospitals and other institutions is to notify the person in charge in the event of suspected child abuse. That superior is then legally obliged to report to the authorities.

SNIP

[malaise]

4. +1,000

I would have intervened if I saw that man molesting that child. Then I would have called the police

[LynneSin]

7. I don't know how I would have reacted had I witnessed that scene in the shower

I'd like to say "oh I'd kick the shit out of Sandusky blah blah blah" but our minds don't work that way when confronted in a suprising situation.

But what I do know that at some point that night SOMEONE would have called the police. McQueary must have been promised something big to keep his mouth shut - maybe that's how he got a coaching job at PSU.

[JuniperLea]

45. I would be in jail...

With my bare hands... anyone who hurts a child best not do it around me.

I hate war, violence, etc... I consider myself a pacifist, but by God as my witness, I could easily kill with my own hands if I were to ever witness such a thing.

[malaise]

53. I have intervened in public spaces when I saw a parent

hitting a child and more than once. There is no way I was watching a 60 year old man with a naked ten year old in a shower and not intervening.

[Rainbowreflect]

60. His balls would be tightly in my hands until he either ran away

without them or the police forced me to let them go.

[JuniperLea]

63. Me too...

It would take days to stop screaming AFTER putting myself between that sick fuck and that kid.

And everyone who turned a bind eye and kept quiet is a sick fuck too.

[roguevalley]

137. +google

[shanti]

74. check out what happened to the DA

when he decided to take this on :eyes:

[October]

80. As I understand it, the DA decided to not press charges. /nt

[shanti]

82. he disappeared

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sports/ncaafootball/questions-on-sandusky-wrapped-in-2005-gricar-mystery.html?_r=3

[csziggy]

111. He disappeared YEARS after he decided not to prosecute

On the first allegation of molestation of a minor. The first allegation was in 1998. Ray Gricar disppeared in 2005 and was only this year declared dead. His disappearance was either a suicide or a planned disappearance. He made sure that any information on his county issued laptop was completely destroyed - the harddrive was taken out of the laptop case and even the company that recovered data from the Challenger drives could not recover data from that one.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

126. Yeah the missing DA and his wiped HD haunt me. I suppose it's possible his

disappearance had nothing to do with this, but I don't really believe that at this point.

It really wouldn't surprise me if there are more than one dead body involved with this story.

[October]

119. I know, and I read the NY Times piece.

I understood that he disappeared AFTER he had already decided NOT to prosecute.

[CoffeeCat]

158. And I think this point can't be made often enough...

That EVERY SINGLE person in that chain of command--from Coach Paterno--all the way up to the
President of Penn State--knew that NOTHING had been done and that Sandusky had gotten
away with raping a ten-year-old boy.

They were all well aware that the police had never been called and that no help
EVER came to that boy who was raped in plain sight.

The argument that Joe Paterno "did what he was required to do" is a joke. Part
of following a chain of command--is to ensure that SOMETHING IS DONE, NOT THAT
SOMETHING IS HIDDEN.

Give me a break with these people who say that Joe did nothing wrong! He knew
the chain of command did NOTHING and that there was a victim out there who
did not get justice!

[ChoppinBroccoli]

38. Did He Actually Witness It?

I don't know the details of the story. But my take on it is that if you actually witness something like that, you MUST call the police. If someone tells you about it second- or third-hand, your responsibility is to report it to your superiors (as Paterno did) AND to encourage the witness to call the police. Because, really, if you think about it, I wouldn't want to be the one calling the police telling them things I had no evidence to back up. That opens you up to all kinds of liability. Plus, what if the rumors aren't even true?

Maybe Paterno didn't do ENOUGH (reporting it to your superior and then washing your hands of it probably doesn't rise to the standard of responsibility necessary in this case), but I think it's wrong to say that he should have called the police. I don't think I would have either if someone had come to me with what amounted to nothing more than a rumor.

[JanMichael]

40. yes, he witnessed it

the description he gave is nothing short of disgusting. I totally agree with LynnSin on this issue.

[LibertyLover]

54. Question? From your post, it sounds like

you are saying that Joe Paterno personally witnessed a 2002 incident with Sandusky and the minor child? If that is the case, can you please provide a link or evidence that backs up same? A friend of mine graduated from PSU with a PhD in Materials Science about 25 years ago. I used to go visit him in State College and have fond memories of the town and the university, so I've been following this story with interest. If I understand your assertion correctly, it is the first time that I've heard Joe Paterno is alleged to have actually witnessed Sandusky molesting a minor child.

[BReisen]

104. McQueary was the witness, not Paterno

Childhood friend of Sandusky's kids, PSU player, grad assistant at the time of the incident, currently assistant coach. Not one person in the chain tried to help this kid - I don't think they even know who he is to this day! If you have any questions about how bad this was, the grand jury report is available in multiple places online. Here's one link: http://www.wgal.com/pdf/29737452/detail.html Be prepared, some of the descriptions are graphic in nature.

[LibertyLover]

108. Thank you

That's what I thought. The post I was querying seemed to indicate that Paterno had witnessed an incident with Sandusky. I have heard how graphic the Grand Jury testimony is. As the mother of a 9 year old girl, I know I should at least review it so as to protect her, but I just can't bring myself to. A failing on my part no doubt. There are just times when the brain says "enough garbage already" and demands to see photos of cute puppies and baby horses in order to recover some sense of equilibrium.

[BReisen]

114. Me too

Meaning I'm the mother of daughers, too (a little older) and I agree that it's sometimes tough to see some of what is out there. Suffice it to say - really impress upon your child that she owns her body and is allowed to set to boundaries, that no one can touch her in any way that makes her uncomforatlbe, and that it's okay to tell you anything.

[roguevalley]

139. consider this, paterno knew he was a pedophile and he saw the

kids that sandusky would bring to games. he had to know what would happen and because of this, yes, he did 'see' it.

[seabeyond]

5. i want to know what du adult would knowing allow a man who fucks children to continue be around kids

this is not a tough one for me. it is that simple.

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. Correct. Resorting to the patronage chain of command is not enough.

[NYC_SKP]

9. But he's a hero and he helped so many people become good citizens.... yada yada yada...

...makes me sick.

:puke:

I'm with you.

Every damn person in the chain of command is to blame for not bringing down the whole damned stinking circle of evil.

Dammit.

[kickysnana]

10. I am not defending him but I wish life were that easy...

Tremendous power difference there and it may be that the guy thought that nobody would believe him and there are negative repercussions for the victims in being revealed when they are not ready not to mention having to go through a trial. I am saying the system is wrong. It doubly abuses kids.

Unless you have reported every suspicious thing you ever saw and that in itself can make life a problem you have to believe he did what was right under the circumstances. Face it, when it is someone you know and admire you hope that exposure will end it if it didn't we should lock up people forever for their first mistake.

I am sickened by the whole thing but don't throw the whistle blower to the wolves. He could have turned a blind eye so nobody would could ever hate him for being there.

[LynneSin]

12. But it wasn't a borderline questionable thing that the witness saw Sandusky doing

Two naked people in the shower having sex with one looking clearly like a minor is pretty much a clear cut call to the Police right away.

Maybe if McQueary just saw two fully clothed people perhaps doing something questionable like a hand on a leg or close contact between the two that might have said 'let's keep this quiet for now'

But it was clear cut molestation that was occuring. You call the cops.

[kickysnana]

33. You mean the cop that ran a stop sign and tried to run me and my kids down in the crosswalk in 1980?

The ones who could not find the brother's that severely beat my youngest the last Day of 6th grade even with an address?

The ones who came to our house accusing my kid of assault being in a gang because a kid took it upon himself to get on my kid's bus and jump him in his Sophomore year with a steel lock in his hand. Kid was white, as I am, and felt my mixed kid had "dissed him". He would have been charged had not another white mother on that corner witnessed what happened. My son hit the kid once after trying to just get away for him for a couple minutes.

The ones who followed my 19 year old son home from his job as a Parts Manager that he used to pay for his beater, college and personal expenses, EVERY NIGHT through the 2 miles from the Freeway in a suburb directly North to the City Limits every night for "Driving While Black?"

You obviously do not watch Law & Order SVU and I have had my fill of armchair juries on DU this week. The truth is that in America for as long as I can remember you never really know what is going to happen when you call the police. You might get officer Bologna. He did what he thought was best and it was not enough but calling the police may have been worse.

[LynneSin]

37. In 2002 in the state of Pennsylvania you are required to report cases of Child Molestation

I realize that the police are not perfect and I'm sure there are many other stories similiar to the ones you just shared.

You cannot just let something like this slide though - the police had to be called.

[npk]

85. Agree. You put in the hands of the Cops

Now if the Cops fail to investigate or get involved in the cover-up themselves, then that is on the CIOPS. All Paterno needed to do was follow up after informing his superiors. Then if he felt that nothing was going to be done, he should have gone to police. I know that in a lot of states the person reporting the abuse can remain anonymous at the point of the initial complaint. Paterno would have only been mentioned as the person responsible for notifying the police, after Sandusky was subsequently charged and arrested. So even of Paterno didn't want to ruin a man's career based solely off a complaint, he still could have done the honorable thing.

[Zoeisright]

55. If he didn't trust the police (which I very much doubt), his LEGAL DUTY

was to report this to child protective services. There are very good people working in those departments who will MAKE SURE something is done.

My husband was the director of a women's shelter and they did this kind of thing all the time. They did NOT LET UP until the police addressed the situation.

Sorry, your "argument" is a total failure.

[Ruby the Liberal]

64. I don't downplay what happened to your kids and am sorry that happened,

however, kids beating up other kids is a far cry from a 28 year old witnessing a 60 year old ass raping a 10 year old in a facility shower.

[MH1]

58. I totally agree about McQueary. My one question about Paterno:

WHAT, exactly, did McQueary tell Paterno? Maybe it's in the docs somewhere, I only got to the part that said what McQueary now says that HE (McQueary) saw. I understand that he said something to Paterno. What? It's hard to imagine anything that would fully excuse Paterno, but I guess I'm not ready to drop the guillotine (figuratively) until I know how ambiguous (or not) was the conversation between McQueary and Paterno. I guess I can't really know that, but if I KNEW that McQueary told it to Paterno exactly like he put it to the grand jury, I'd have to drop that guillotine pretty quick.

What I REALLY want to know is, why didn't MCQUEARY call the police, as he was the actual witness?

[spooky3]

59. there are many cases of what you and I would consider clear cut wrongdoing

where the system and the buddies in it protect each other, including police departments. It's not a matter of clear cut evidence. It's a matter of power, unethical people in power, and broken systems.

[frylock]

92. that's what CPS is for, and if they drop the ball you contact the state attorney..

i cannot believe the litany of excuses being run out in defense of this shit.

[MedicalAdmin]

155. In most states except Penn. apparently ...

... A mandated reporter is required to report it and then follow up and make sure it is investigated and if they feel it wasn't for any reason to report it up the food chain until something is done : supervisor, boss, police, CPS, DA, state police, Feds....

You are not supposed to stop until you are sure it has been handled. And most laws I have seen shield the reporter from retaliation.

[spooky3]

162. the laws may shield on paper, but there are many instances where the reality

differs, and the reporter DOES experience retaliation, or is ignored altogether.

[MedicalAdmin]

163. Good point.

I know that some states have a mechanism in place that allows for anonymous reporting.

My gut feeling on this is that you donwhat you must to stop the abuse. This means different things for different people depending on circumstances and their power/safety. But I would hope that others wouldn't dodge that responsibility if faced with a similar situation.

[jberryhill]

15. An "ass coverer" is not a "whistle blower"

And anally raping a 10 year old is not a "suspicious thing".

[Ruby the Liberal]

65. Good point in that it was a school locker room - there should have been at least one whistle

laying around. If not, a loud "WTF are you doing??" would have worked.

McQueary chose neither. He looked at that kid (his grand jury testimony stated both Sandusky and the kid looked at him when he caught them) and his immediate reaction was to call his daddy. Big, strong, 6'4" 28 year old Quarterback and he didn't stop shit. He called his daddy. A Pediatrician. Who told his son to call the coach in the morning. No rush, it isn't like a 10 year old is in danger, needs our help, or is even MORE terrified because he saw someone he thought could help just walk away and let it continue...

Please though, do continue with your devil's advocate role and try to convince us that the worship (and protection) of a sport is more important than child rape - because THAT is what this is all about. Priorities.

[kath]

124. The fact that a *PEDIATRICIAN*, McQueary Sr, didn't see to it that CPS was notified (or notify them

himself) is utterly unconscionable. The PA Medical Board should yank his fuckin' license, or at the very least censure him strongly.
And no way in hell would I take my kids to such a piece of shit doc. Jeebus.

[Hepburn]

11. Hell, yes...call the cops. Bullshit on the rest. n/t

[shraby]

13. The man wouldn't have walked out of that shower except

a lot of lumps all over his body if a member of my family had witnessed it. Then the cops and ambulance would have been called.

[jberryhill]

17. +1

They'd have to take him out on wheels.

[6000eliot]

14. It wasn't neglect on their part either.

Everything they did (or rather didn't do) was all about protecting the reputation of their football program and nothing else. They are far worse than zeros. They are fucking evil scumbags.

[JuniperLea]

48. Because "Yay Team" mentality is what it's all about to them...

It will be the death of us all. Allowing a child to be hurt in this most heinous way to protect a sports team is so far beyond the pale it hurts my brain to think about it.

Heartless fucking evil scumbags... they are all Karma's bitches now... and I hope she doubles down on the freak with them.

[Fumesucker]

16. I have read several times now that McQueary knew Sandusky from childhood..

I don't know for sure that this is true but it could explain much.

[LynneSin]

22. I doubt it was that

McQueary grew up near State College so he was engrained with the PSU cult worshipping.

But McQueary was a quarterback whereas Sandusky was a defensive coach. Also Sandusky's charity worked mainly with foster boys but McQueary came from a regular home.

[Fumesucker]

25. Regular home?

His dad told him to report a child rape to a coach..

Doesn't seem all that "regular" to me..

[LynneSin]

26. McQueary wasn't from a foster home, I guess I worded that wrong

but I know what you're saying.

[Ruby the Liberal]

66. McQueary's dad is a pediatrician

and a big wig in State College. McQueary played HS football a mere 1.5 miles from Penn State.

[Fumesucker]

67. Hmm, a pediatrician would be a mandated reporter, I have little doubt of that..

No excuse whatsoever for him, eh?

[Ruby the Liberal]

76. One would think his professional ethics/training would have instinctively

kicked in while advising his son before said son left the locker room/scene of the crime - while the abuse was still happening...

[RobinA]

88. Maybe Some

of the armchair child advocates on here should READ the law about mandated reporting in PA. Then they should see the damage that reporting false allegations can do. Then they should be faced with being told second, third or fourth hand that abuse is occuring and have to decide what to do. Let's see how long the certitude lasts.

[Fumesucker]

91. I read the other day that the average molested child tells six adults before he/she is believed..

Agreed about the damage of false accusations but there is a hell of a lot of damage caused by ignoring true allegations also.

Speaking as a molestation victim myself I never told anyone until more than twenty five years later.

[frylock]

96. armchair child advocates..

fuck you. mcquery saw WITH HIS OWN TWO EYES that sandusky was raping that kid.

[LynneSin]

132. If you actually see a naked 60 year old man in a shower raping a 10 year old boy -

that's pretty clear cut call to police/cps.

You know about 30 years ago after my father died, I had an relative who was kinda creepy to me. He never did anything sexual towards me, but he was just excessively 'huggy-touchy' that creeped me out.

My mother even saw him get 'huggy-touchy' with me and agreed it seemed borderline bad but not abusive. I told her I said I felt uncomfortable when he did that and she made it a point that she was around anytime he was there. Never had any future issue with the guy.

Point is this - there was no need for calling cops or CPS on this relative, we dealt with it on our own and never had another issue nor had anyone else in the family felt there was an issue with him. That would have been damaging if we did call the cops since it was a hunch and not actual sexual molestation.

But naked 10 year old with naked man in a shower with flapping noises - there is no question what should have been done.

[fishwax]

101. I think he's a phsycian assistant and a CEO, rather than a pediatrician

"McQueary’s parents, John and Anne, moved the family to State College when Mike was 6 and immediately bought season tickets for Nittany Lions football games. A former medical corpsman with the Navy’s special warfare operations, John became a physician assistant, and later, the chief operating officer of a large medical and surgical group in State College. He was also a renowned coach in the State College area himself in youth sports. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/10/sports/ncaafootball/aspiring-coach-in-middle-of-colleges-scandal.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

[justiceischeap]

52. Which, if true, means McQueary could have very well been a victim of Sandusky himself.

I posted before that either McQueary was a survivor of molestation (and therefore shocked/scared/denial about what he saw) or as some who are molested, turn into molesters themselves and that's why he didn't do what the rest of us would consider the right/normal thing to do.

[Fumesucker]

57. That's certainly a possible implication.. n/t

[fishwax]

61. all the victims we know of came from broken/disadvantage homes

and Sandusky met them through his Second Mile charity he established to work with such kids. It's a pretty common pattern for abusers: they find kids who are vulnerable and who are less likely to have strong relationships with other adults that they can use as a defense against the abuse. That's not to say such abuse never happens to kids from middle-class homes, of course, but it doesn't seem to fit Sandusky's pattern.

[RobinA]

90. What the Rest

of "us" would consider the normal thing to do while sitting in front of "our" computers is not necessarily what would actually be the normal thing to do. You might want to look up studies on the percentage of people who report crimes versus the number of people who SAY they would report crimes. Also interesting is the number of people who would harm other people versus the number of people who SAY they would harm other people.

[OhioChick]

18. This story is absolutely disgusting.

Apparently, college football is more important than the molestation of children.

:puke:

[MineralMan]

19. Precisely.

There was a right thing to do, and none of those people did it. No sympathies for them. They all deserve whatever punishment they receive.

Sadly, none of that punishment will help the victims who came later than the incident that should have been reported immediately. Nothing. That is the true result of their inaction. A pox on them all.

[closeupready]

24. 'punishment will not help the victims' - correct. They were robbed of their innocence.

Not to sound Victorian or anything, but getting raped in the back door can be very traumatic for fully-grown adults. Can you imagine what that does to a child's body? And mind? :nuke: :mad: PTSD would be only the beginning.

[MineralMan]

29. No, I can't really imagine it at all. It's too horrible to contemplate.

I cannot imagine any adult doing such a thing. It's completely beyond my comprehension. That's why I cannot forgive or pardon anyone who does such a thing or is complicit in allowing it to happen. Whatever Joe Paterno's good points may be, they are overshadowed by his actions in this matter.

I'll never meet the man. If I did, I would tell him what I thought of him, and in no uncertain terms.

[JuniperLea]

49. This is the part that really chaps my hide...

Those poor kids... all of them. But those that were hurt after the discovery were hurt directly by the inaction, and I feel those evil bastards are as culpable as if they had done the freakishly evil deed themselves.

Edited to say... I'm in shock at the actions of the students... they are sick people. Sick and twisted if they don't see that the lives of those boys are worth more than a sports team!

Idiots all. I'm so disgusted.

[Tatiana]

20. I think, by law, Paterno was a mandated reporter. He should have called the POLICE FIRST.

Then he should have notified his supervisor (if he felt the need to... don't think this is required by law, you can report anonymously).

He knew and he covered it up. Riots my a$$. He needed to go, along with all people who participated in the cover up.

[onenote]

117. he should have, but he was not a mandated reporter under the law

http://law.onecle.com/pennsylvania/domestic-relations/00.063.011.000.html

[Zoeisright]

120. Wrong.

Mandatory reporting includes the duty of “Teachers & other school personnel” to report. Statutes also allow for “permissive reporting” – wherein a citizen is not mandated to report, but does so out of moral & ethical conscience. “A report must be made when the reporter, in his or her official capacity, suspects or has reasons to believe that a child has been abused or neglected.”

http://getbigideas.blogspot.com/2011/11/occupy-child-abuse-mandatory-reporting.html

http://www.connecttristates.com/news/story.aspx?id=684644#.TrxbHvHiPY0

[onenote]

121. Did you read the law?

“when a person, who in the course of employment, occupation, or practice of a profession, comes into contact with children, has reasonable cause to suspect, on the basis of medical, professional, or other training and experience, that a child is a victim of child abuse.”

Mr. Paterno did not come into contact with children in the course of his employment or profession. He worked at a university. The focus of the law is on children. If the law had been intended to require anyone who observes sexual abuse while they are at work to be required to notify the authorities, it would have been written much more broadly. As someone pointed out in an article I read, if employee of a law school where the author was a professor brought their child to school one day for a "bring your kid to work" event or if the school had a day care center and that professor, whose job did not include working in the day care center, observed someone abusing the child on school property, the professor would have a moral duty, but a legal one, to report the matter to the authorities. School employees whose job involved working in the day care center would have a legal obligation because what they come into contact with kids in the course of their employment.

I fully agree (as I thought was clear from my original post) that Paterno had a moral obligation to report what he had learned from the grad student to the authorities (and to demand that the grad student also contact the legal authorities).

[pnwmom]

148. You are incorrect. In Pennsylvania, it is sufficient to report to your superior.

Pennsylvania is one of a handful of states where this is true.


Only the people at the top have the obligation to report to the police.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/penn-stat ...


When Joe Paterno, the ousted Penn State football coach, was confronted with a possible case of child rape, he notified his bosses rather than call the police or the child-abuse hotline. That was all Pennsylvania law required him to do, yet in most other states the failure to call could be a crime.

In more than 40 states, the prevailing policy is that such reports must be made to police or child-protection authorities swiftly and directly, with no option for delegating the task to others and then not following through.

Already, the Penn State scandal has sparked calls for Pennsylvania to toughen its law. State Rep. Kevin Boyle says he will introduce a bill that would require mandated reporters — including school and hospital employees — to notify police themselves rather than pass their information on to superiors at work.

“It is clear that a loophole exists in our law,” Boyle said. “My legislation would close that loophole by requiring those who are aware of the abuse to report it to law enforcement authorities, rather than simply following an in-house chain of command.”

A review by The Associated Press of the abuse-reporting laws of all 50 states showed that Pennsylvania is one of only about a half-dozen states where the protocol for staff members of schools, hospitals and other institutions is to notify the person in charge in the event of suspected child abuse. That superior is then legally obliged to report to the authorities.

SNIP

[pnwmom]

147. By PA law, Paterno was NOT a mandated reporter.

He fulfilled his legal obligation under PA law by reporting to his superior.

[MerryBlooms]

21. I just finished reading the 22 pg Grand Jury Report

Link -
http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/sandusky-grand-jury-presentment.pdf

warning: it will make you sick to your stomach

[trumad]

23. Yep

Hey remember--they have him admitting that he showered with a 10 year old boy back in 1998.

Cops let him go for that.

[LynneSin]

28. I made it to page #2 and had to close the document

It was when I tried to watch "The Human Centipede". Five minutes into that movie I realized the only thing I'd be watching was the sick notion of seeing people eat other people's crap. I turned it off even before the victims were kidnapped.

I realized by page 2 I would be bascially reading child pornography if I continued on and I just couldn't do that either.

[MerryBlooms]

30. I forced myself to read it through

After reading so many trying to excuse Paterno's action/lack of, I figured they must have read the report and I was just in the dark. No way is that the case, so now I'm back to wondering why/how people are defending a man who was clearly complicit in these horrendous crimes.

Honestly, it was one of the most disgusting thing I've ever had the displeasure of reading. I couldn't get all the way through without crying.

[Marrah_G]

41. omg i had to shut that one off too

[Withywindle]

71. And at least you had the comfort of knowing that "Human Centipede" was fiction.

Fake. Not real. Made up. Special effects. Never happened. I call that up and think that when movies upset me.


This horror right here is ALL REAL. There's no refuge in reality - the reality itself is the horror.

[OhioChick]

32. That is one sick bastard....

:puke:

[Bombero1956]

27. apparently he was a great coach

but couldn't figure out how to call the police and report a child molester. I couldn't understand his supporters protesting last night. It seems you can get away with just about anything so long as your team wins. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees.

[LynneSin]

35. He was a legendary coach that created a team that was held to a higher standard

Paterno refused to put the names of the players on the jersey because he felt that it was a team that won games and not individuals. Penn State had one of the best graduation rates of their football players because education was very important to Joe Paterno. He realized that only a few would ever manage to make it to the NFL and for the rest they deserved to graduate with a degree so they had a chance to be successful in life. Never did Penn State get scrutinized for things like illegal college recruiting or steroid abuse.

There was a very genuine sense of pride that our team held these things as important which made us feel (and yes I was from that area, I was part of it) that Penn State was heads taller than any other NCAA Division I Football team.

And honestly all of that, 46 years of hard work by Joe Paterno, came crashing down because not one of those 6 men who knew what happened - not the witness, not the witness's father, not the coach, not the athletic director, not the campus police and not the university president felt that it was important to call the real police officers and report the crime.

[seabeyond]

44. this is what i was emphasising this morning with son. it really sounds like this man did so much i

preach to my kids. the kind of role model i teach my kids to admire and respect. so it was very hard for him to see, that this ONE action... ONE action took away all this.

it doesnt take away maybe, but it will be what he is remembered for. it will be against what he always stands for. adn he failed in this.

[LynneSin]

46. In life it won't be all the good choices that will be remembered by...

but that one moment in time where we made choices that were just totally wrong.

[Withywindle]

73. We all make mistakes, but this was a BIG one.

The kind of mistake you don't recover from, and shouldn't be excused for.


It's the kind of thing that really DOES make people wonder if all the good things weren't a sham, because if you claim to have lived your life and done everything you did for the good of young people...and then you fail to decisively act to protect children who are being raped, well...after that, who the fuck cares how many kids you taught to throw a football?


I'm sick of the Old Boys Club protecting rapists and pedophiles and other predators. I'm sick of the idea that talent in sports has ANY correlation whatsoever to moral virtue. I'm sick of sports-hero "platitudes" being used to sucker people when the truth is, it's all about MONEY and a culture of winning-at-any-cost that would make Ayn Rand blush.


I think it's better for kids to look up to heavy metal Satanists and thug-life gangsta rappers, because at least they do not CLAIM to be appropriate moral guides. The sense of pernicious, smarmy self-congratulation isn't there.

[seabeyond]

75. i hear now this rapist adopted boys and fostered boys. these coaches KNEW he was doing this

as the KNEW he was fucking boys at the school.

they said nothing. they did nothing.

did they go home to wife and say that old... whomever... is not only raping the kids at the school, bought having them brought home for him

stupid man

and shrug

[snagglepuss]

Hear Hear.

[snagglepuss]

134. Hear Hear.

[Prometheus Bound]

154. From 2002-08, 46 of his players faced 163 criminal charges; 27 were convicted on 45 counts.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=3504915

[DURHAM D]

31. I think he would have immediately stopped Sandusky if the victim was female.

But only because everyone knows girls don't belong in the men's locker room.

[pitohui]

130. if the victim was female there would be no news or police report to this very day

you may trust me on this

use your common sense, why would a grown man NOT call the police when he sees another grown man raping a 10 year old boy? why would he only kvetch to the boss? you know why in your heart...it's because there is a culture of rape at that institution and finally, FINALLY, after witnessing or knowing about how many people raping how many women and men and teens, FINALLy seeing a 10 year old get it, then he starts to wonder, gee have we crossed a line here? s hould we do something about this?

that's the only reason he would react like that

a normal, non criminal, non culture of rape person...they see a 10 year old being raped, they phone the police not their boss

this guy must have seen many and many a rape and certainly the rape of adult females, by important sports figures, would be considered just part of the compensation in this culture...

[SidDithers]

34. I was sympathetic toward McQueary, at first...

but now that I've had more time to think about it, I agree that he's just as responsible as the rest of them. If you see a child being assaulted by an adult, you don't sneak away and tell the adult's boss. You fucking stop the assault and call the police.

McQueary initiated the cover-up, by reporting the incident to people who could make it go away, instead of reporting it to the police.

Sid

[LynneSin]

36. And that includes his father - who told McQueary to report it to Joe first

I still question if there was any reason as to why this kid got a coaching job at PSU - did he earn the position or was it a condition to keep his mouth shut about what he saw.

[Aerows]

43. Good question

and very good point.

[fishwax]

62. "reporting the incident to people who could make it go away, instead of reporting it to the police"

a good point.

[NewJeffCT]

97. All McQueary had to do

was cough, whistle, clear his throat, something, if he didn't want to directly confront Sandusky.

I think McQ is going to end up being just as guilty as Paterno in the end.

[Patiod]

39. K&R from a Nittany Lion

So sickening, so disappointing.

As I've said elsewhere, I can only hope that this sparks lots of conversations between parents and kids about speaking up, and about how no job and no institution is more important than protecting the vulnerable.

[LynneSin]

70. It's a good university and it will rebound

I suspect that at the end of the season the entire coaching staff will be fired - all of them. It's just with 3 games left and a potential Bowl bid the Board of Trustees want to salvage what the can for the sake of the players, who did nothing wrong, and the money, which is going to dry up real soon when the lawsuits hit.

I believe ever single coach will be gone after the season ends because at this point any of them left will just be a vile reminder of what happened at the school.

And if they are smart they'll redo the locker room so that the current tainted showers are removed. I would not want to shower someplace where I know that THAT happened there. Would creep me out like buying a house where you knew a gruesome murdered had occured.

[bluedigger]

127. I wouldn't bet on that bowl bid.

cars.com has already pulled their advertising for Penn State's last two games. It will take a pretty desperate bowl sponsor to get a bid.

[Aerows]

42. A Janitor caught him on a second occasion

Orally assaulting a boy in the shower. He reported it to his boss, and discussed it with his co-workers and they were afraid of getting fired. That guy can't testify now because he's in a nursing home and not competent to testify.

That should tell you the sort of environment they were working in.

[seabeyond]

47. this is the one my husband heard. told me last night. said janitor said, only giving kid bj

told him, you erally think the man wasnt getting satisfied somewhere along the way.

gotta make people think this shit thru.

thanks. hadnt heard anywhere else about janitor. but hubby

[Aerows]

50. Grand Jury report

States that the janitor said at the time "I went through the Korean War, and saw blood and guts and it wasn't anywhere near as bad as what I saw in there." Report states that several people were afraid the man was going to have a heart attack he was so upset about it.

Link to full Grand Jury Report - not for the faint of heart, but it completely illustrates the lengths they went to cover this up:

http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/sandusky-grand-jury-presentment.pdf

[seabeyond]

51. wow. just so sad. nt

[closeupready]

68. Yeah, as if Vietnam was a positive, edifying experience. Sheez.

I have relative who almost died over there. I don't think they would wish that on their kids. :mad:

[femrap]

56. I'll join you.

Priorities in this culture are upside down.

[noiretextatique]

69. i used to work at a school for disturbed kids...as an accountant

all employees, even admin staff, were required to report suspected child abuse to the police, not to management.

[pnwmom]

150. The law in PA doesn't require that. Most states have stronger laws. nt

[Whisp]

72. thanks.

many like to distance themselves from those kids, like they aren't real, and the sport and U are more real and worth defending.

not enough vomit for this

[KurtNYC]

77. I suspect there is a culture of cover up -- steroids, grade fixing, etc.

and it got extended to this serial rapist.

What is it with football? OJ Simpson, Michael Vick, and many others seem to be evaluated on a cost versus benefits (how well they play football) system that is at odds with morality.

[bobthedrummer]

78. Yep. Thanks Lynne Sin. K&R#100

RECALL SCOTT WALKER!

[MissDeeds]

83. Thank you

K&R

[GeorgeGist]

84. Just an average Joe ...

in the top 1%.

[Stinky The Clown]

86. Amen! I am amazed (yet again) by how some defend Paterno or at least try to excuse him.

He (and the others you named) are accessories after the fact. They knowingly covered up for Sandusky. There is no other way to look at it. They knew the story would hurt their precious fucking football bizniss.

Fuck 'em all. Fuck Paterno the most cuz he's the leader. Yeah, I know, technically he isn't. But the fact is, a guy like him IS the top dog. I blame him the most.

[Rex]

87. You are correct, that is no excuse for ongoing criminal acitivity.

I hope they all end up in jail.

[seabeyond]

89. hey... btw lynnsin. did i hear the scream? lol. nt

[atreides1]

93. You know what

Life is full of "What if".

[WCGreen]

94. Exactly!

[Xtraneous]

95. If you've ever worked in a university, you know it's more political than

what the nasty immature republican nutjobs dish out. It's amazing the system supports some incredible teachers and, in this case, coaches, when they can't function very well outside of that system. Not to make excuses for Paterno, but it's a deep systemic problem.

[JDPriestly]

98. You see a child being molested you call the police

You see a child being abused in any way, you call the police.

There are courts and social workers to handle these situations.

Watch out for children left outside at night this winter.

Watch out for children who might visit your home and who have belt-thrashing scares on their legs or backs.

[kenfrequed]

99. I think you are right

But I unrec most posts that are not political issues that are posted here.

Again though, I think you are right.

Unrec.

[Major Hogwash]

105. It's really hard to believe . . .

that there wasn't an adult amongst any one of them.
It's incredible, and it defies logic.
The entire system broke down and not one of those men are what I would call men.

[snagglepuss]

113. And how could all these bastards continue to work with the creep? Are any of them

pedos? I really have to wonder whether any or all of them share his inclinations.

[pitohui]

131. you know they were all rapists/harassers they took it as their due

there's no way a normal man reports the rape of a 10 year old to someone he knows will cover it up...unless he has a reason to cover it up

i doubt they're all pedos, but you can bet your ass that every single one of them felt it a "perk" of the job that they could force sex on whoever they liked...a person who wasn't guilty of harassment/rape
wouldn't report it to "the person who can make it all go away," in another poster's apt phrase

no one will ever know or care about the raped adults but if some pervs go away for raping the kids, it's better than nothing

[WoodyM90]

106. The biggest play in his life

and Joe fumbled the ball.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. He reported...I kid I kid

I agree.

[montanto]

109. Educators know, and those outside of education may not,

that they are required to report child abuse/endangerment/sexual assault directly to the police. If a teacher witness, or hear from a victim about any of those things, including "consensual" sexual activity that involves minors, s/he reports it directly to the police. Not to superiors, not to counselors, not to deans, not to campus police, not to parking attendants, not to garbage collectors, post deliverers, dog catchers, etc. Child abuse gets reported to the police. There is a reason for this: To avoid this very situation. You keep a copy of the report you file for your own protection, and then you walk away from it. If a teacher or other (mandated reporter) employee of a learning institution doesn't report it to the police, they are either criminally negligent, attempting to cover up someone else's crime, or just plain evil. Granted, there are some borderline occurrences that make the mandated reporter wonder whether they should report or not, but watching a kid get a%&-raped in a shower is not one of them. That you report to the police every time. All who saw, knew, reported to the wrong person, didn't report what they knew when they knew it, or didn't report at all, should go down. It's not even a matter of "shoulda known better," as it is completely unbelievable that a person involved in education at any level doesn't know this stuff. When you deal with youngsters reporting abuse to the police is rule 1.

[stockholmer]

110. PSU = Paedo State University, I hope Sandusky, Paterno, et al. rot in a cell

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZXRXMOp7L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

A real book

http://www.amazon.com/Touched-Jerry-Sandusky-Story/dp/1582613575/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top




227 of 262 people found the following review helpful:
1.0 out of 5 stars To his credit... he's an expert!, November 7, 2011
By G. Fawkes - See all my reviewsThis review is from: Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story (Paperback)
When it comes to touching, there's nobody I know of that can better call upon 40 years experience of bad touch than one Jerry Sandusky.

Stay hard Jerry.

You sick piece of excrement. JoPa you aren't clean either buddy. Help other customers find the most helpful reviews
Was this review helpful to you? Yes No Report abuse | Permalink
Comment Comment



283 of 331 people found the following review helpful:
1.0 out of 5 stars Seriously? What a slap in the face to all of his victims! A book titled "Touched" written by a pedophile., November 5, 2011
By M. Munson "Nobody Special" (Near Venus) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME) This review is from: Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story (Paperback)
Mr. Sandusky is both a genius and a narcissist, which makes him the perfect predator. At no time was his narcissim more apparent than when he titled his book "Touched". I guarantee this coward will "off" himself, before he ever spends a day with the general prison population. I, for one, would like to see him spend the rest of his life locked up with the general prison population; then, perhaps he can write the sequel entitled "Touched II: Predator Becomes Prey".

"Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story" is a fantastic read and I cannot wait to see the upcoming motion picture adaptation by Roman Polanski. A+ FIVE STARS!!!!"

[sandyj999]

112. He should have taken it all the way.

[DeSwiss]

115. K&R n/t

[ladyVet]

116. exactly, LynneSin!

I've got three sons. If that had been one of my boys, and I found out all those people knew and did nothing, well, let's just say that there wouldn't be two bricks left connected anywhere on that campus. I'd tear that place apart with my bare hands.

[matt819]

118. Absolutely. Also. . .

Yeah, yeah, I know. Innocent until proven guilty. But I would bet that everyone in that chain - McQueary, Paterno, Curely, Spanier - knew all about Uncle Jerry and his inclinations and chalked it up to "ol' Jerry's at it again." As this story unfolds, we're going to find that Sandusky has been at this for years, that everyone knew about it, and that he used his non-profit as a hunting ground.

[MsPithy]

122. Boofuckinghoo!

A (presumably) good man's (Paterno) reputation is ruined by one failure in judgement. So-be-it! Character is measured by making decisions that are hard or dangerous. Paterno and every other man involved in ignoring child rape, did not.

And, as far as I'm concerned, punishing the rapist and preventing the rape of more children in the future, is a no-brainer. They are all lucky they're not in jail!

[democrank]

123. It`s an absolutely sickening example of enabling.

I`m stunned by the number of people who were willing...then and now...to look the other way. McQueary told his father THE NEXT MORNING. Not the night before when it happened, but the next morning. Guess he had to sleep on it to see if it was really worth mentioning.Nobody called the police.

Now I`ve heard it all.People are actually making excuses for Paterno. If his don`t-make-waves-bullshit wasn`t the height of moral bankruptcy, I don`t know what was.

You witness a grown man molesting a little child, you call the police, not your father and not some athletic director. These were innocent little children, and take it from someone who knows....they will never be the same. Ever.

[tblue37]

149. No, he called his father right after he left the scene, and his

father told him to report it to Paterno the next morning, and that's what he did--he waited until the next morning to tell Paterno, and then did nothing more.

[pitohui]

128. you don't report to your boss, you report rape to the police

the only reason to report rape to the boss is BECAUSE you know that rape is being covered up at that place of business and you want to "play ball" with the status quo

the guy who reported child rape to his boss instead of phoning 911 needs to be in prison with the rest of these fucktards because the ONLY reason you'd go to the boss first with this is because you KNOW there's a cover up going on and you want to check out how far you're supposed to go with the cover up

how many adults did he see being raped? how many 14 year olds? finally a 10 year old is raped and he's so squicked...he just reports to his boss instead of the cops...

fuck the dude, he's as much a rapist as the guy who did the physical deed, he must have enabled dozens if not hundreds of rapes over the years until he met the rape he didn't like...



the fact that the rape of a 10 year old was being covered up at this late date in our history, when child rape is the great hysteria of the time, tells me all i need to know about how much things HAVEN'T changed since i was a victim of harassment

think about it, they were raping TEN YEAR OLDS and letting it go by, since most folks don't have an interest in a child's body, this HAS to be mean that adults were raped by the bushel...but most people don't give a fuck when it's an adult's life that is destroyed

you have to be pretty and cute and a child and even then probably nobody will give a fuck but if you're not pretty and cute and a child YOU WILL NEVER SEE JUSTICE EVER

very disgusted in humanity

[alp227]

129. thank you again, the hearsay argument doesn't matter

and the district attorney can investigate the claims anyway and interview the witness and then come to a conclusion objectively.

[DirkGently]

138. Yes. You intervene & stop it. Then you go to the cops. Period.

[girl_interrupted]

140. What I don't understand is McQueary not stopping the rape right there and then

How could anyone see that and make no effort to stop it? This was a child being raped by an adult, not consensual sex between two adults. And you allow it to go on? You have to run home to ask your father's advice? Absolutely McQeary should have called police, forget about going to his father, but to allow a rape to continue and make no effort to stop it, to intervene on the child's behalf? I don't understand that at all. Whole thing makes me sick.

[LynneSin]

143. I have to believe there is a level of shock involved that may have stunned him

It's easy for any of us to post here what we would have done. But to stumble upon it there is no way to know how we would react until we've been thru it and god forbid I hope that none of us ever will.

But I hope that once the shock has worn off that there will be a phone call to the police.

[pnwmom]

151. I agree. That's why I blame the higher-ups more than the 20'something

who witnessed the event. He was in a state of shock, while they were cold-bloodly pushing the matter under the rug.

[Chorophyll]

141. K to the freaking R. nt

[Go Vols]

145. maybe

I am a little to the right on this,but,he wouldnt have walked out from where he was.

Some things dont deserve speculation.You fuck a kid,I will beat you severely,or ....

[jtuck004]

152. If there is no mandated reporting of rape, then maybe there's no mandated

reporting of, say, someone shooting people randomly in the locker room?

But if that was going on people would be under tables with a cell phone screaming for intervention from 911.

Even if someone just told them they "heard" people were being shot, I would bet a thousand bucks the response would not be
"Well, I will call the Pres's office - now lets get out on that field and practice. I'm sure they will do what's right".

So just because it was some 10 year old kid, whose name these bastards don't even know - because they weren't personally being hurt, they think it is ok to hide behind the stupidest of defenses, policy.

Maybe you ought to change the school motto to "Stinking Cowards".

Whatever pain is coming to you, know it is nothing compared to what that kid felt, and may still be feeling today.

[OneBlueSky]

153. here here . . . in every instance, the adults in this catastrophe . . .

placed the interests of the institution above the welfare of the children who were being abused . . . in that respect it mirrors the actions of the Catholic Church, whose hierarchy kept transferring predator priests from one parish to another without ever contacting law enforcement . . . protecting the institution was more important to them than helping the victims -- it was disgraceful when the church did it, and it's disgraceful when Penn State did it . . .

I can't for the life of me understand why McQuery didn't step in and tell the molester to get off the kid and wait there while he called the police . . . granted he was a mere graduate assistant, and the predator was the former defensive coordinator under Paterno, but there are some situations that simply call for immediate action regardless of the status of those involved . . . this was most assuredly one of them . . .

[SemperEadem]

157. if anyone can give a pass to this, then they have also given a pass to priests

who've done the same. They probably think it's no big deal: it wasn't them or theirs, so who gives a fuck? Anyone who means anything to them wasn't involved, so as far as they are concerned, no harm, no foul. Let's play some football!!! The kid was probably asking for it and liked it, as far as they are concerned.

This whole thing is shining a light on those who truly believe that children are worthless... they aren't worth protecting. Jobs, school reputations and football are worth far more than a child's safety and protection from a known pedophile.

[n2doc]

159. Oh they all knew well before 2002

They knew at least as far back as the 1998 incident where the DA chose not to do anything. Sandusky 'retired' in the prime of his career- to 'work with kids'. One of the supposedly 'great' defensive coaches suddenly retires from a very lucrative profession just after being caught on phone apologizing about molesting kids? And they kept on letting him be around kids until at least 2009 on campus. And he was on campus working out in the team weight room last week. And Paterno, as head coach/local deity, knew and allowed all of this to happen in his program.

Anyone who wants to put this all on one incident has blinders on and is deliberately deceiving themselves and trying to deceive others.