m$nbc--loughner put earplugs in before he committed mass murder

[spanone]

appears he was in a fairly cogent state of mind

he obviously didn't plan on dying



One video shows Loughner talking to a clerk while pointing to his ears to signal that he cannot hear, the sources said. Authorities believe he went into the store bathroom and put on earplugs before the shootings.
http://tucsoncitizen.com/arizona-news/2011/01/18/details-of-gabrielle-giffords-shooting-emerge-in-videos/

[NNN0LHI]

1. When the taxi got to the scene he ran into a store to get change for a $20

The fare was $15 and he wanted his change.

Don

[Frank Cannon]

22. That, to me, is very telling.

But then I have to keep in mind that he IS a right-winger. I'm surprised he didn't try to walk out on the entire fare.

[spanone]

2. unrec? really. just facts.

[DainBramaged]

3. The unrecing crew is a stealthy bunch, and they hate the DU

[spanone]

4. yea, i shouldn't have bitched about it...grrrrrr

[DainBramaged]

5. When I post, I can be assured of at least 5 instant unrecs

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. I agree. There is a group of people who are targeting certain poster.

They don't want us to sound too argumentative, I guess. Maybe we should see if there's a common denominator? I have seen the threads which I start that might criticize an Obama policy get higher unrecs.

[Matariki]

34. Honest to god, I think someone created an app.

It seems so automatic and immediate.

[WhiteTara]

6. okay, we're now on the greatest

:hi:

[H2O Man]

7. I think that

it can be viewed as a badge of honor sometimes.

[Johonny]

25. well it isn't just facts

it's a fact and a conclusion based on those facts. Reading the thread not everyone agrees with the conclusion. Does wearing ear plugs mean he didn't plan to kill himself... only the shooter know for sure.

[H2O Man]

8. Recommended.

I heard that reported last night. Curious, isn't it?

[spanone]

21. it could hurt his insanity plea....

[TorchTheWitch]

28. how? legally insane people are capable of planning

so how does using ear plugs hurt an insanity plea?

[H2O Man]

32. "Insane" is a

legal definition, of course. But in regard to those with a mental illness, certainly there is usually a capacity to plan. I suspect that the interest in this has to do with the sum total of evidence that showed this fellow not only planned the execution of Rep. Giffords and others, but was well aware that this was legally wrong. That is, generally speaking, the measure used for an insanity defense.

I suspect the next question may be,"But what does his using ear-plugs have to do with this?" And that's the type of question that those interested in if the suspect did know right from wrong need to consider.

[TorchTheWitch]

35. I haven't seen any evidence that he knew it was legally wrong

What evidence is this?

And yes, what does his apparently using ear plugs have to do with his knowing right from wrong? We don't know that he did use ear plugs or why he used them. We already know he planned the crime, and using ear plugs doesn't do anything but reaffirm that he planned it. SO WHAT? There is already ample evidence that he planned the crime, and his planning of the crime has NOTHING to do with whether or not he was legally insane. Whether or not he knew right from wrong and was legally insane when he committed the crime is going to be up to the psychiatrists as it ALWAYS is. And good thing too, because the armchair enthusiasts are clueless when it comes to understanding both legal insanity and a serious mental illness such is evident that he suffers from. IF he used ear plugs for all we know it was to attempt to shut up his auditory hallucinations which would point more to him being likely legally insane.

[H2O Man]

36. Since I did not

say there is anything that I think suggests that he was incapable of knowing right from wrong, I am not able to answer that for you. I'd suggest asking anyone who thinks that there is even a tiny chance he'll be deemed "legally insane." I'm not one of those people.

I suppose if one puts the ear-plugs in a context suggested by the notes this fellow left, the answer should be obvious.

[Deep13]

9. Safety first. nt

[stuntcat]

10. he did it so he could concentrate

NOT that I have that much clue about murderers }( but I do bet this was why.

[Deep13]

15. I know why I wear earplugs when shooting.

Guns are so load that they can give you Pete Townsend hearing. I do think his concern for his hearing shows presence of mind and purpose that will undermine an insanity defense.

[thereismore]

11. I see an insanity plea difficult to defend. nt

[TorchTheWitch]

29. I see a lot of people that don't understand legal insanity n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

12. Unreccing for all the "Carnac the Magnificent" mental health expert wannabes who think they know

what earplugs *MUST* mean!

[unblock]

13. up next, loughner brushed his teeth before he killed!

putting in earplugs before firing a gun is normal and routine for many people, so i don't think you can read much of anything into this.

[Maru Kitteh]

17. Not to mention, schizophrenia is much more often than not comorbid with other conditions

and many of those conditions involve adherence to routines and rituals. Routines and rituals are mechanisms by which the severely mentally ill can attempt to make sense of and operate in a world they are often increasingly disconnected from.

[cali]

16. wait- you actually think that putting earplugs in makes him cogent

and that it demonstrates that he didn't plan on dying? er, no.

[slackmaster]

18. Unrec for massive failure of logic

appears he was in a fairly cogent state of mind

he obviously didn't plan on dying

[spanone]

27. yea i guess he wanted to preserve his hearing for the afterlife

[Very_Boring_Name]

39. Or perhaps, more likely, he wanted to concentrate on shooting

perhaps his ears are sensitive and noise causes him pain? I don't understand how wearing earplugs automatically means he wanted to live.

[Monsoon]

19. And has anyone mentioned that Mark Kelly has

a shaved head? Coincidence? Hmmmmmm.

[spanone]

23. brilliant post

[Edweird]

20. I find the act of putting in earplugs before committng an act that could result in the death penalty

or his death during the commission of that act highly delusional - crazy even.

[arthritisR_US]

26. it goes to premeditation, imo. n/t

[TorchTheWitch]

31. premeditation doesn't exclude legal insanity

Legally insane people are very often capable of planning. We already have ample evidence that he planned the attack anyway. The definition of legal insanity is WHY the person committed the actions and whether or not they understood the wrongness of them.

[Edweird]

38. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm guessing 'premeditation' and 'crazy' aren't mutually exclusive.

I can't think of a reason for wearing earplugs in this situation that isn't 'crazy'. Can you?

[woodsprite]

24. Maybe he put them in to deafen any screams he would hear once the rampage started.

Either way, it sounds bad for his insanity plea.

[stuntcat]

33. this is what I first thought, he did that to ignore distraction

(is what he did insane? well duh I don't know, lemme think on it.. :crazy: :P )

[Vickers]

30. I heard he was clothed, too.

Wouldn't crazy people just go and shoot-em-up nekkid?

:shrug:

[Pancho Sanza]

37. I've noticed...crazy people never use earplugs.

:D