Ahhhh, the gender wars are back. WooHoo!

[Cerridwen]

My father explained that the world requires men only to be responsible and accountable for their thoughts, their feelings and their actions. Women, he suggested, are always permitted to blame others for what they think and feel and do. My mother, he explained, would maintain her belief that I had "made her hit me first" and would insist that I needed to change so that "she wouldn't have to yell at me or hit me ever again."

I remember saying that I did not think that was fair. My father explained that fairness is a male value which most women do not understand or appreciate.

During my apology to my mother, as my father had predicted, she demanded that I acknowledge that I had caused her to hit me, that her violence was my fault. My father had advised me not to argue that point even though, objectively speaking, it is not true.

He explained I could use logic and rationality to devise an acceptable response to her demand without having to lie to her by falsely admitting that I thought her violence was my fault. He advised me to keep my logic to myself, explaining that women do not highly value logic at the best of times and that they detest it when they are emotionally upset. (I told you that much of our discussion was not politically correct.)

The title of the piece from which I excerpted above is "The Last Time I Hit A Woman". Google it. I'm not providing a link.

The full definition of the Dworkin-MacKinnon Ordinance of pornography is at this link and looks a damned sight different than what was reported in our oh-so-objective and non-spinning media; or did you think the western media only lies about other countries?

A snippet:

1. "Pornography" means the graphic sexually explicit subordination of women through pictures and/or words that also includes one or more of the following:

a. women are presented dehumanized as sexual objects, things or commodities; or

b. women are presented as sexual objects who enjoy humiliation or pain; or

c. women are presented as sexual objects experiencing sexual pleasure in rape, incest, or other sexual assault; or

Much more at link above. The western media reported the definition as: "'Pornography' means the graphic sexually explicit subordination of women through pictures and/or words" and a whole lotta people bought it.

Welcome to the world of accepted knowledge, common knowledge and conventional wisdom as created by our illustrious media.

I bet you think feminists are all radical and hairy, too. BTW, look up definitions of radical. There are several.

[cliffordu]

1. Well.....

:popcorn:

[Cerridwen]

6. Don't bother. This won't get enough traction to keep you in salt much less butter. n/t

[cliffordu]

10. I tried to read the whole thing -

It seems wildly psychotic, in a non- pornographic sense - which, according to THAT author, seems like an impossibility.....

because, EVERYTHING is pornography.

I always thought it was in the eye of the beholder.

I'll watch wild rutting by loving couples in their amateur films on "youporn"

But I will NEVER watch a human slap or strangle another human for 'sexual' purposes.

Your mileage, as usual, may vary.

[Cerridwen]

15. I would argue, I have argued, that the US is a sexually sick and toxic society.

Since I don't feel like writing a dissertation length post right now (and the audience breathed a sigh of relief), I'll just leave it at that.

We can't get to "there" from "here" since "here" is so beyond...you should pardon the pun, fucked up.

[cliffordu]

18. I completely agree that we are fucked up sexually....

But considering the vast numbers of people arrested worldwide for child porn, I dunno who is any better off, psychologically.....

[Cerridwen]

19. I agree.

There is a segment of the human population who... Well, this is a liberal/progressive/Democratic/democratic board and so I won't finish the rest of that sentence.

Our gene pool(s) needs copious amounts of bleach.

[cliffordu]

20. Yep.

Touch a kid, die in the street.

[Swede]

2. Where does gay porn fit in this little scenario?

[Cerridwen]

3. Read the definition at the link provided. That may answer your question.

There is a 4 paragraph limit when quoting other sources. I would have loved to include the entire definition but chose to err on the side of being conservative. *snort*

[saras]

25. For the participants, replace 'woman' with 'bottom' or 'sub'. If there isn't one, no problem.

If the gay relationship isn't defined by a dominance component, then it's not an issue, same as if a heterosexual relationship appears to be between equals.

People who have a taste for S&M have a deep, fundamental problem with that definition, though, no matter their gender identification or preference.


Personally I see it like I see abortion. I have no desire to ban S&M, but I do want a world where it is desired by almost no one, and resorted to in emergencies. Whatever we do culturally to confuse sexuality and consent, I want us to stop doing it. On the other hand, some people seem to see the struggle for dominance as a human universal, the primary component of nearly all relationships everywhere.

[daleanime]

4. No, I don't think feminists are all radical and hairy...

I do accept personnel checks.



And I do believe that we all too damaged to have an honest discussion about sex.O8)

[Cerridwen]

5. I just drugged my inner grammar/spelling-nazi. You're welcome.

There's a reason I'm not "well liked." I just gave one example.

Two more words for your list; rhetorical and irreverent.

And there's another reason.

[daleanime]

7. No problem....

I'm trying hard to only worry about either one person likes me or not, and that's myself.O8)

[NBachers]

8. My ex-wife's great insult:

"There you go, being logical again!"

[Cerridwen]

9. We should set her up with my ex.

His insult was, "I didn't mean THAT independent."

[Tunkamerica]

11. I must be dense.

Are you responding to someone? A little context would help out a lot.

I'm unsure of your point or the point at which we (as readers) are entering into the conversation.

[Cerridwen]

12. There are many instances in the media, in politics, and yes, even here at DU

in which there is evidence of pitting man against woman against man against woman against man... and so on.

It was a comment about today's (as in the current time regardless of exact date) climate of divide and conquer.

[Tunkamerica]

21. Just in general? Why the link to the pornography "definitions"?

Again I feel like I'm missing the original post or something because I still don't understand the point without some context. It seems like a specific response to something, but you're beating around the bush and not telling us why you decided to post these semi-related thoughts and links. Clarity, please, for those of us who need such things.

[Cerridwen]

22. The general climate is one in which we're discussing pornography, sexual

assault, pedophilia, definitions of each and so on.

If you need a specific, I'm afraid you won't get it here. It's a miasma of "sexual" discussions.

[Tunkamerica]

23. Sorry I didn't realize we were all discussing all of that.

That being said, I have no idea what your point was.

[Cerridwen]

24. Ok.

[provis99]

13. there are millions of feminists in America.

Yet I constantly see reference to Dworkin and MacKinnon, as they were the only two people that represent feminism.

[Cerridwen]

16. Always look for the extremes. They make the best fodder for the media.

See examples of Muslims, OWS, r/w, l/w, and on and on.

The media works to make the exceptional into the mundane.

[Lionessa]

14. Very similar advise was given me to justify my father's abusiveness.

I think that it isn't gender wars, it's just really bad parenting on both parents part. One enjoys the violence but doesn't want the blame, the other enjoys the violence and doesn't want the blame.

And it's such a hard argument to disagree with, y'know if I was perfect, perhaps I wouldn't have gotten the broken noses, concussions, collapsed sinus passages, scars on my ass. Yeah, NO. The victim being human just gives abusive people and those that are enthralled or in control of them the excuse to rationalize their lack of accountability.

With my situation, I realized that it couldn't be my fault because both my parents were well educated near if not complete geniuses. Therefore they had to be smart enough to realize in short order that their abusiveness was not creating the supposedly desired outcome, a good child, but was instead with both my brother and I, making us worse almost daily. So, since they were smart enough to understand they were only making things worse, then they must have just been enjoying themselves. Sick, but true.

Anyway, I see that your post shows a gender bias, but it's just a variation of what most abused children have heard from the accomplice parents.

[Cerridwen]

17. Actually, I wasn't speaking of abuse but of rhetorical "gotcha"s.

I'm sorry you suffered at the hands of your parents. There are no words I could type here to make you understand that or the depth of my feeling about that.

As to "intelligence," we have a very weird definition and acceptance of what is considered intelligent in this country. I've know brilliant people who can't read a map, work a 3-hole punch, or make a coherent sentence, but in their limited sphere of intelligence were brilliant. IQ does not equal intelligence. That's all I'll post about that.

Again, I'm sorry for the abuse you suffered. I have no words that can help you.

[canetoad]

26. Without following the link

The OP stands on it's own merits.

I don't think I'm alone in detecting the undercurrent of mysogyny running through DU. An excercise in acceptibility would be to replace the word 'female' with the word 'black' in conversations and see where that leads us.