America: an improvement over the historical, run-of-the-mill kinds of nations

[sibelian]

I saw this tonight on DU, posted elsewhere. A poster thanked someone for being a good an honest citizen -

"...and trying to make this nation what it's supposed to be: an improvement over the historical, run-of-the-mill kinds of nations."

I find this very interesting. Does this sentiment resonate with you, DU?

[dmallind]

1. Overall about right for me.

Definitely in the upper tiers, but by no means an isolated or spectacular example given all options. But why should it be? there is nothing in logic or realpolitik that would long support the idea that one place is so much better than all others.

[sibelian]

3. the thing that confuses me about it is what is meant by

A historical or run-of-the-mill sort of nation. All of them are unique, bizarre, unlike one another. How can one improve on a set of wildly contradictory characteristics?

[TheWraith]

16. By improving on them.

Not everything is equally valid--some ways of doing things are better. Many countries are not particularly democratic. Many countries do not fully respect the rights of racial and religious minorities. Many do not respect the rights of women. Even many countries in Europe have much worse records on civil liberties than the US does, including more restrictions on the public, more surveillance, and more police powers.

[dmallind]

22. Well for me the metric would be a totality of a bundle of measures

For example I would comsider the following personally

Political and governmental structure - Democracies over autocracies etc
Purchasing power of median income in real terms - standard of living
Socioeconomic mobility - if I start poor and powerless how likely is a change?
Legal environment on civil rights - can I speak and act within reasonable limits as I wish? Can others of various minorities?
Risk through crime or war - how safe will I and others be?
Cultural amenities and norms - how much will I enjoy living there?

Some considerations outweigh others. A perfect freedom of civil rights and upward mobility describes Somalia quite well - I would however die within days if I tried to achieve it. I wouldn't go to the trouble of assigning a weighted score matrix, but subjectively it works much akin to one.

[MedleyMisty]

2. No

But then I don't believe in American exceptionalism.

[sibelian]

4. Actually I have no problem with American exceptionalism as long as

you also have Pakistani exceptionalism, Irish exceptionalism, Chinese exeptionalism, German exceptionalism, Japanese exceptionalism, Iraqi exceptionalism...

I think it's entirely meaningful to view America as a unique entity. It most definitely is. The thing that confuses me is the idea that other nations aren't.

[Jackpine Radical]

6. Yeah. It's very much like having pride in your ethnic background

without thinking that those from other backgrounds are in any way your inferior on the basis of those backgrounds.

[sibelian]

12. positive patriotism

is a difficult thing for some. My nation (Scotland) spent most of its history until now congratulating itself on not being English. These days there *seems* to be more of a positive idea of Scotland itself rather than defining itself as not-something-else, if you see what I mean (which I think can't really ever work). The post I quoted reminded me of that.

I think America has a colossal amount to be proud of, but it's often not proud of it or at least doesn't, as a nation, seem to be saying so, like the hippy movement in the 60s, the Civil Rights movement, beautiful really *beautiful* landscape (america rarely sells itself on this abroad as a tourist destination and it really should) people with lovely manners, maker of amazing movies... but it's always other things it wants to be proud of.

[Uncle Joe]

28. This is why the world has waged war since the dawn of time, and it's not just

the concept of national exceptionalism, but religious and class exceptionalism as well.

This is also why the messengers presenting overwhelming evidence re: major global crisis threatening humanity as a whole ie: global warming, climate change are ignored or attacked.

This ingrained, dysfunctional division of societies has for too long prevented humanity in one form or another from reaching its' full potential, either out of pride, fear, greed and/or suspicion and it has gotten to the point of threatening life as we know it.

[sibelian]

33. I'm not sure if we disagree

but I would make the point that it's not so much the unique identity of a nation state, nor pride in it, that brings about war but misunderstandings of what that uniqueness is and what it can be used for. I'm proud of some aspects of being Scottish but not proud of others.

[dmallind]

23. But a comparative ranking is NOT exceptionalism.

Exactly how far down on the list of all countries and times would you place current US living? It's certainly possible even likely to rank a few northern European nations higher - maybe a couple in S America and Oceania too overall. But you're not going to get too far down the list before you get to here and now. Reasonable assessment is not exceptionalism.

[Spider Jerusalem]

5. Not really, it sounds like the sort of smug chauvinism that breeds anti-Americanism abroad...

even in countries where people might be favourably disposed to the US. The idea of a grand American destiny, of America as some sort of grand experiment, as a "shining city on a hill"? It's nonsense. Utter and complete bullshit. Nationalist codswallop that's used to excuse and paper over and ignore a hell of a lot of ugliness. The idea that America is unique and uniquely destined and the idea that American ideals and values are universal? Dangerous nonsense that's unfortunately embraced by too many on both sides of the US political divide.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. Historically, we were the first post-Renaissance democracy,

and our Constitution is a document of great genius. I think that we had an amazing collection of far-sighted, broadly humane people involved in our formation.

And we have had our occasional moments of brilliance, from the inventiveness of an Edison or a Tesla to the grand social restructurings undertaken under FDR.



But we have also sometimes been exceptionally evil. From slavery and genocide to the military conquest of the Philippines, we have done great harm at home and abroad.

We also have many undesirable traits, ranging from anti-intellectualism to xenophobia and an amazing capacity for self-delusion.

Our natural resources have given us a great advantage in economic and industrial power. And as we have used up our share, we have turned to extort raw materials and cheap labor from the rest of the world.



I can't justify imagining us to be in any significant way "better" than the rest of the world.

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. That would be the Republic of Corsica, actually. 1755. (Look it up.)

And the US Constitution and particularly the Bill of Rights don't do much more than codify the rights of Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights of 1689, and six centuries of English common law with a few additions and the innovation of the American presidential system of government (which in the modern world and compared to parliamentary democracies doesn't look so brilliant).

[Jackpine Radical]

9. There's always a pedant in the crowd.

And, in comparison to parliamentary systems, I'd have to agree. But they came into existence after us & were able to avoid some of the structural defects in our prototype.

[sibelian]

11. It did seem slightly ironic to me

given that being an improvement on historical run-of-the-mill sorts of nations is a rather historical run-of-the-mill sort of aspiration across the globe...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools." Schopenhauer

They idea that our bit of the planet, or our people, is superior and more worthy than any other bit of the planet or people is absurd.

[Jackpine Radical]

13. Patriotism is the last refuge

of a scoundrel.
-Samuel Johnson

[sibelian]

14. Well, I hope he was at least a *bit* wrong.

My nation's about to throw itself into the arms of a stubby little patriot.

[Jackpine Radical]

30. In case you decide you like the type,

we have plenty to spare.

[sibelian]

32. Actually he's done pretty well for us.

so far....

[white_wolf]

15. I don't think so at all.

I have posted a few times here that this country makes me sick and it does. The way the U.S. treat its poor,the sick, the homeless, in this country is awful. Gitmo is awful, drone attacks that kill civilians are awful, our empire is simply terrible. Have we done some good in our history? Yes, but so far, at least in my lifetime, I've seen far more bad than good. I've seen very little good, in fact.

[Quantess]

17. I am a polite, well mannered, good natured lady.

Would you kindly fuck off?

[sibelian]

19. No.

And, no, you're not.

[Quantess]

21. You expected a serious response?

:spray:
Post a well thought out question if you want a good response. Maybe you know the opposite "ask a stupid question, you get a stupid answer".

[sibelian]

27. Yes, I did.

And several have provided me with them. I find this topic interesting.

The thing that interests me isn't so much patriotism itself as the differing shapes it takes - not all patriotism is the same. The kind I saw displayed in the post I quoted relies on an understanding of the world outside the US that I find very peculiar and actually not all that common among the Americans that I know, which admittedly are possibly a self-selecting "not-as-patriotic-as-one-might-suspect" group through being located here with me in Scotland.

Scotland is possibly about to undergo a transition from being part of the UK to becomging Independent and there is a battle going on the media to try and control the perceptions of Scottish patriotism. Scotland for a long time has defined itself politically almost entirely as "not being English" but luckily also it benefits from a strong national culture that has genuinely positive aspects, it's always had its own legal system, things like that. The "postiive nationalist" (about Scotland) and "negative nationalist" (about not-England) strands of thought are being tested in my country at the moment and I see a relation between this and the post I saw. Hence my desire to see what Americans thought of the post. I perceive that patriotism is currently viewed dimly on progressive boards like this and I had thought that that dim view is fueled by US patriotism's supporting ideology - but I was not aware of this aspect *of* the ideology - namely that other nations can be grouped together by some *particular* character that is "historical", as if America isn't "historical". In short, I don't really know what that poster was talking about and wondered if anyone here might explain it to me.

The reaction to American patriotism is considerably more visceral outside the US than reactions to, say, Chinese patriotism, which is in some ways worse, and I think there's a reason behind that and I want to find out what it is. I don't think it's because the US is genuinely better than other countries or even secretly perceived to be so, but because the supporting ideology behind the patriotism contains something suspect.
I think that the international community can tell that there's more to American patriotism than any other nation's ordinary patriotism, and I wondered if the desire to distance oneself from an imagined mass of shabby failed nations was it.

If American patriotism rests primarily on an understanding of its relationship to the international community that's actually rather peculiar, most patriotism isn't like that.

Hence my asking *specifically* if the statement "an improvement on historical run-of-the-mill nations" resonated with DU.

If I had wanted to know whether individual Americans felt that America was a great country or too patriotic or not patriotic enough I would have asked about those things specifically.

[white_wolf]

20. Please tell me what the OP said that you found so offensive? nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Some people still buy into Exceptionalism.

It too shall pass.

[sibelian]

24. That's not really the bit that concerns me

Actually I think patriotism can be a good thing. It's the imaginary bland mass of failed not-Americas that upsets me!

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. There is a slight difference between love for country

And Exceptionalism. Think of Rome, or for that matter Britain and that famous white Man's burden. It too shall pass.

But that is what we're talking about.

[dmallind]

25. I think many missed the "run of the mill" part

The claim that the US is an improvement on ALL nations would indeed be exceptionalism, but let's look at an exact analog:

Celine Dion is an improvement over the run-of-the-mill kind of singer.

She certainly is. But her legato is poor, vibrato is excessive, and tonal color is harsh at times. Go into a karaoke bar or even most working musicians' gigs and she's a great improvement over those run of the mill singers. But she's not even close to exceptional singers like Sutherland or Callas. That's not the claim stated however.

[sibelian]

29. Thank you

I think that's an excellent analogy.

I have no problem with patriotism and no particular problem with what I see as the *genuine* American patriotism of my American friends, which is typically supported by an actual interest in their own country and it's history and themes. I think that's ordinary for any nation. What I don't understand is the "run-of-the-mill" perception of other nations - I don't see what binds them together as a "whole" and what shortcomings they might have that should be avoided (which is not to say that these shortcomings don't exist).

I've remarked elsewhere on this thread that it's slightly ironic given that the avoidance of being a "historical run-of-the-mill" nation is actually quite a historical run-of-the-mill aspiration, but I don't think that that means its a *bad* aspiration, nation states that aim for qualities that set them apart typically end up donating these qualities to other nations by a kind of cultural osmosis if nothing else. What makes the whole thing look bad is when they start stomping all over everybody, which is also rather a historical run-of-the-mill development.

I think America *is* exceptional in that its marines are openly marching in protest against its invisible policies. That's not very common at all.

[coalition_unwilling]

31. Ahistorical and promotes an entirely undeserved American 'exceptionalism' - n/t