Class. We in the us like to think it does not exist

[nadinbrzezinski]

But it is very real. We are probably starting to see it in things like " thank you for your service." I am almost willing to bet that middle to upper class vets like those words. Alas I don't really move in those circles. Working class vets want what they were promised, which they have to fight for. And just do not get me started on homeless and poor vets. What do you think they'd rather have, a few empty to their ears words, or three square, a roof and the care they need?

So yes, there s a very good chance this "division" in opinion is very much so class related.

We've been here before. It was out of that dichotomy that Starship Troopers came from. Yes, the background was veterans finally having it with empty promises.

That was a novel, but real life is...that this very probably is class...the kind of social division that in the myth of the US does not exist.

So I will stand by what I have said, those words are hollow and empty until we do right by these men and women. Say them if you must. But realize not all of us think is propper, perhaps due to the vets we've met over the years.

[Autumn]

1. K/R Good post

"So I will stand by what I have said, those words are hollow and empty until we do right by these men and women." hollow and empty indeed. Thank you.

[Brickbat]

2. I think the "division in opinion" has nothing to do with class, and everything to do with you having

to be right all the time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Anything with more substance would be good

And are you denying there is a very high level of homelessness and unemployment among vets?

You think that has nothing to do with class?

[Brickbat]

7. I think the difference in opinion between you and other people on the appropriateness of thanking

vets for their service has nothing to do with class. I think you don't like to have people disagree with you publicly and are looking for a way to be right. Class has a lot to do with the issues veterans face, but it has nothing to do with whether someone thinks it's appropriate to say "thank you for your service" to a veteran.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. So you are denying those issues are real?

Ok...I am just giving you a very sociological explanation to a real dynamic. This is but one more example of it. That is all.

For the record unemployment now sands at 12% or so for this population. And look, even the ratigan show is more or less talking of this and how we don't treat our vets right. I guess Dylan is also nuts

[Brickbat]

12. No, I'm just pointing out your huge leaps in logic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. No you are not

But I will not recommend any book on this, or articles. I am sure you can find them yourself.

[Brickbat]

24. Books about how middle- and upper-class vets like hearing the words "thanks for your service," while

lower-class vets don't? I doubt it very much.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. There are articles on class

You can find them at a UNIVERSITY. they are part of the JSTORS database. That's all the help you will get..

[Major Nikon]

35. How does that connect the dots on your assertion?

I'm not sure who the "we" is of class deniers in the first place, and what is even more perplexing is how this is supposed to relate to thanking veterans on a day that was specifically set aside for that very purpose.

So perhaps you do have a valid point somewhere, but you might to elaborate more because I don't get it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Well you'd need to do some reading there

I'd start with the idea that we're not classless. But hey if you are really interested, start with a few college classes. Sociology and anthropology come to mind.

[Major Nikon]

45. I'm not challenging that idea

So the suggestion that I should just better educate myself on a subject I'm not contradicting you so that I can begin to understand your point doesn't make much sense to me either.

First, I'd like to know who these people are who think we live in a classless society. So defining exactly what you mean by "we" would be a good starting point. I'm not even sure if teabaggers would go so far as to deny there's a working class and an upper class in our society. So who are these "we"?

Next, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're assertion is that because "we" who I'm assuming you mean most people, deny the existence of class, so therefore we are doing a disservice to veterans by thanking them. I'm not sure how you connect those two things, even if the first part were correct.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. It is part of the American myth

That's why a person making 20k bucks with kid and wife (or husband), who are technically at or bellow poverty line, believes they are as much a part of the middle class as that person making half a million a year. No, they are not in the same social or economic class. But they will swear they are. One is best case poor working class, while the latter is part of the lower wealthy elite.

That is part of who we are. That I where the WE comes from. You and I as INDIVIDUALS might not believe this, but statistically we are not the majority. You can blame the media and others responsible for those narratives. And I am serious, if you are truly interested, the American Historical Review and American Sociology are good places to find more...the latter, that's what they do, is a better mine.

[Major Nikon]

48. I don't know of any families making $20K who think they are middle class

$20K per year is $10 per hour full time for one person. I haven't seen any polls on the subject, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just don't see it. I know a few families making about that much and I don't know any of them who would say they are middle class. I wouldn't challenge that there are many higher up that believe they are in a higher quintile than they actually are, but this doesn't make a good case for class denial. However, even if it did I still don't see as how this relates to veterans and how we are doing a disservice by thanking them on Veteran's Day.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. At the anecdotal level...but studies are what thy are

Anecdotally to the many vets I've talked over the years the words are not damaging...they just sound hollow. They will be even more hollow in months to come. Retitprement and tricare are on the chopping block as well. Give me twenty years I will take care of you for a nominal fee..

So that's all I am saying that you do no harm, they just are hollow to more than a few. They will thank you chances are, fior the sentiment...but it is what it is.

[Wait Wut]

19. +1.5

Nailed it, you did.

[smokey nj]

21. Well said.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

4. How long before the ultra rich give themselves titles?

and refer to their family name's divine right to govern? I get a bad feeling every time one of these nuts like Bachmann tells the public that God told them to run. If God wanted them in office, of course he'd want his chosen one to occupy it on a permanent basis, no?

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Yup, there s that

A rise of a new feudal aristocracy.

[pitohui]

6. i don't appreciate use of the word "we" to refer to reality denying idiots

there is no one w. eyes in their head who likes to pretend that class doesn't exist

i will correct your subject line: idiots like to pretend that class doesn't exist

if you happen to belong to some "we" that is a bunch of reality-denying idiots, get out of that kind of "we"

meanwhile if you're referring to idiots, it's OK to say idiots, but it is not OK to insult the non-idiots who might be reading by using the word "we" when there is no sane person who would be a member of that "we"

as for "thank you for your service," yah, it's arrogant and patronizing if you ask me, i hear this all the time at the airport, if i ever hear the guy in uniform fire back with, "thanks but i'm only in uniform so i can get an extra free checked bag" then i'll buy that soldier a beer!

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. It's part of the American myth to think we're classless.

But I bet that myth is fraying. Larger dynamic it's partly OWS.

[Obamanaut]

8. Earlier you spoke for all veterans. Now you speak for all of the more than

300 million in the US when you say "We in the us...."

"Some of us...", or "I..." (you *can* claim ownership of your opinion. Really, you can.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. I can't help you

[Obamanaut]

14. Did not ask for your help. Will not ask for your help. I am not the one who

needs the help. I suggest the mirror you mention to others on a regular basis.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

26. +1 n/t

[pintobean]

56. Why is it that only

the people who disagree with you are accused of stalking you? You have people who usually agree with you show up in most of your threads. Are they not stalkers as well?

[malaise]

16. Excellent post

rec :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Thanks

:hi:

[Admiral Loinpresser]

18. Reccing despite all the unreccing. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. I think that's comming from a bullseye on the nail

[Obamanaut]

31. Net recommendation: 0 votes nt

[Wait Wut]

20. I've "moved" in all circles...

...maybe you should try it before claiming you know what "middle" to "upper" class vets feel. Hell, maybe you should be a veteran, too.

My father, upper middle class vet...never told a soul outside the family he served. No one thanked him.
My son, lower middle class active Marine...doesn't tell a soul outside the family he serves. Is gracious, but reserved when thanked.
A close friend, very poor, tells almost everyone he served. Will talk your ear off when thanked.

Broad brushes are best for painting outhouses.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. I am, surprised, just not an American vet

And I am married to one, and my BIL is one too...my niece is too...did I mention my BIL's brother? That's just direct.

Any other questions?

Oh yeah, I am pointing to this as a sociological dynamic. Perhaps I could, but shan't recommend a few books. I suspect I hit this nail in the head though...

[Wait Wut]

25. Yes.

Which of those "vets" would you consider "upper" class. Y'know...the ones you used to judge all middle to upper class vets? Oh...that's right. You don't "move" in those circles. Would all those "vets" in your family join you in your dismissal of the wealthier vets? Funny folks, those veterans, they normally stick together. I've seen old, rich vets hang out with much less fortunate and much younger vets and trade very similar stories. I never once heard them discuss their class differences. Getting shot at probably takes all the fun out of being upper class.

Oh, and btw...my family is full of veterans of all classes. Many of my friends are veterans...of all classes. I don't judge people on how much money they don't...or do...have. I judge them on character.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Meta sociological level

Try that.

[Wait Wut]

29. Try again.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

33. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wait Wut]

30. Nice edit.

It's like deja vu all over again.

You keep "coulding" but "shan'ting" all these books in different threads. I "could" but "won't" recommend a few books to you. SO THERE!!! :P

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Well you could start with a few on war and rackets

That be a good start. As to sociology...too much book learnin' I s'pose.

[Wait Wut]

37. That's it?

Damn. I was hoping you'd have me read one of those cool "Chicken Soup" books. I figgered that's whur yer book learnin' came from. :)

Edit to add: Sorry, done playin' with you for the day! You have a lovely Veteran's Day.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Not quiet what you are doing though is a classic attack on

Actual academic learning. First you assume one thing, get called on it, so now you're reaching for classic anti intellectualism. Good going. Try the JSTORS database at your university, if they have not cut access due to cuts.

[Obamanaut]

41. It is "quite", not "quiet". Again, wrong word. Not the best error to make

in a response mentioning "actual academic learning."

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TBF]

34. I rec'ced this earlier as well. Not surprised to see this though -

so many folks refuse to look at class seriously.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. It is fully part of the American myth.

And they have hardened over the last 35 years as well

[TBF]

40. So true - it really has been the past 30-35 years

that things have gone fully to hell. It is very apparent from the income charts of wealthy/poor. It is always when Reagan takes over that all of a sudden the rich folks are making money hand over fist .. that 1% amassed a lot of it's wealth just in that short time.

[pecwae]

42. Why start yet another thread

to expound upon your theories in another? Why add another element when you've already said all that's necessary?

Really, I just don't get this obsession with thanking vets.

I happen to be a working class vet, have always been a working class vet. I've also worked with homeless vets. Of course, they desire and need the necessities of life exactly like everyone else, but not once in 30 years of working with, living with, on AD and a vet myself have I heard one person complain about being thanked.

Thank them or not as you see fit, but refrain from thinking that yours is the only, the most righteous, opinion on the matter. It isn't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. This chaps you so much

Ignore poster is your friend.

Reaction= hammer meets nail, squarely.

[pintobean]

57. Wrong nail

[SlimJimmy]

46. Amen +1

[fascisthunter]

53. lol

pathetic

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NYC_SKP]

60. Thank you for your service, pecwae.

I use these words often, at airports when I see soldiers or airmen or women in uniform, traveling out or coming home, or a senior in a VFW cap, or my stepfather.

I've never met one who seemed not to appreciate that some of us appreciate them and what they do.

It's possible to thank a veteran AND really want for there to be more support beyond those words.

:thumbsup:

[SlimJimmy]

61. You are the one that's hit the nail on the head. Thanks.

[pecwae]

62. As always

I appreciate the effort you made here and your efforts out in public.

Thanks for remembering us without conditions.

[SoCalDem]

50. Middle Class? Low Class? NO class?

Middle Class? Low Class? NO class?


Posted by SoCalDem in General Discussion Fri Feb 01st 2008, 01:08 PM

Most people you talk to daily, still consider themselves "middle class"...but what exactly IS middle class?

Middle class, to me at least, means you make enough to be "comfortable".

It means you can go to the grocery store without that unpleasant knot in the stomach when the cashier announces what you owe.

It means that when the electric bill arrives, you don't have to sit down with a bottle of tranquilizers before you open it.

It means that your house-payment is affordable (less than 1/3 of your take home pay)

It means that you have a savings account for emergencies.

It means that you can raise a child or two, and know that when the time comes, they WILL be able to go to college without having to apply for every funky $250 scholarship on-line.

It means that if the car breaks down, you can get it fixed, and still be able to eat that month.

It means that you can plan a family vacation every year, and actually GO.

It means that you can take your kid or yourself to a doctor when necessary.

It means that your kids get to go on field trips, even if they cost money.

It means that you can count on not running out of money before you run out of month.

It means that you don't HAVE to use credit cards, because your bank account is empty.

My uneducated guess is that more middles are actually "lower" these days, but no one dares to think of themselves as "low class"..

Even "lower-middle" just sounds bad. It feels like you might soon lose the "middle".. that you are trending downward.

America has always pretended to be a classless society, but we all know better.. We learn that in grade school. Everyone automatically "measures" their family against families of the other kids, and many of us grow up feeling insecure, and feeling like our own families don't quite measure up to those of our friends..

We all think that once we arrive at "middle-classiness", we will be OK. If your feet are firmly planted in middle-class-land, you can always aspire to get to a higher class, but no one ever plans to go lower.

We have always been hopeful, but it's becoming a painful reality, that our expectations are not all that great anymore.

More and more of us actually expect to be poor or poorer.

Confidence built our country & made us what we are, and as we hemorrhage confidence, it's not surprising that we are turning on each other, as we flail around looking for some one, something to blame for our suffering.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. I wish I could rec this

:hi:

[SoCalDem]

55. It got some in its day

It's an oldie from 2008:)

[Taverner]

51. Recc'd to 0

The Unrec Monkeys are hard at work

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.