US leads plan to end global ban on cluster bombs.

[sad sally]

Guess it's not enough that the US can bomb anybody and anywhere it wants with drones, but the military also wants the right to manufacturer, sell and use banned cluster bombs - there just aren't enough ways to kill and injure enemies or innocent people,if they happen to be standing in the wrong place.
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In recent years, the UK has played a leading role in trying to rid the world of cluster bombs. It is one of 111 countries that have signed up to the Convention on Cluster Munitions, is on target to destroy its own stockpile, and has ordered the US military to remove any submunitions it holds on British soil.

But The Independent has learnt that the UK Government is supporting a Washington-led proposal that would permit the use of cluster bombs as long as they were manufactured after 1980 and had a failure rate of less than one per cent. Arms campaigners say the 1980 cut-off point is arbitrary, and that many modern cluster bombs have far higher failure rates on the field of battle than manufacturers claim.
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The world's major cluster bomb manufacturers – which include the US, Israel, Russia, China, South Korea, India and Pakistan – have all refused to sign up to the Convention on Cluster Munitions. They plan to push through a less restrictive treaty in Geneva next week.

Arms campaigners say the draft proposal would effectively legalise almost all cluster bombs and be a nail in the coffin of the hard-won cluster bomb ban, which is all but two years old. Austria, Norway and Mexico are leading opposition to the American-led proposal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/uk-backs-bid-to-overturn-ban-on-cluster-bombs-6259139.html?du

[msongs]

1. gee if Obama can put cluster bombs on drones the world will love America even more nt

[piratefish08]

5. just call them Peace Clusters. fools em every time......

plus - we got a BUNCH of those things hanging around....... it'd be a waste of money to NOT blow some shit up, wouldn't it?

[Angry Dragon]

2. I wonder how much of a savage Obama would be if he would

not have gotten that Peace Prize

[The Straight Story]

3. Who else has been using them other than us? (nt)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. CBUs have a specific tactical usage and there is no replacement

The alternative is a lot more unitary weapons, with associated collateral damage. Until a suitable tactical substitute is found, I do not expect to see them removed from the stockpiles.

[provis99]

7. you obviously have no idea what a cluster bomb is.

The reason it is used, is that it is completely indiscriminate; like a big Claymore mine aimed from the sky. It has little to no battlefield utility; it is a "soft target" weapon, ie. groups of tightly packed civilians. And collateral damage refers to civilian casualties, not the opposite, as you imply.

A bunker buster laser bomb is a lot more discriminatory than a cluster bomb.

[krispos42]

8. It has a lot of utility in a conventional military situation.

A favorite target for cluster bombs is anti-aircraft batteries, artillery batteries, armored vehicles, etc.

Unconventional military situations... not so much.

[Capitalocracy]

10. Except they've been using them on cities.

Why would they go and do that?

[krispos42]

12. Dunno, exactly.

Except that I'll note that unguided cluster bombs have to be used at low altitude; otherwise they spread out far too much to be effective. I believe the target drop area is an oval only a couple of hundred yards long, which is maybe a city block in size.


Cities are large and diverse areas; if a fighter was to drop a cluster bomb on a mortar battery in, say, Central Park, then you could say "they're using cluster bombs on a city", even though the area is open terrain.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. Actually I do, and I understand their tactical utility

CBUs are "area" weapons, intended to be distributed over an area and not hit a specific point but instead a defined area. They are no more indiscriminate in their targeting than an LGB or GPS weapon. There are any number of military "soft targets" that CBUs are the weapon of choice. The list include:
- SAMs
- Artillery/field guns in the open
- Exposed infantry
- Supply columns
- Supply and fuel depots or transfer sites
Basically things in the open that are not armored. This does not include specialized rounds like BAT (anti Tank sub munition).

Collateral damage is ANY damage that was not intended, red or blue military, civilians, infrastructure, or anything else.

[Capitalocracy]

11. Israel. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. IIRC Kaddfi used some (Spanish made mortar rounds?)

and there may have been some used by the coalition in Iraq.

[Capitalocracy]

15. Definitely used by the coalition (read: the U.S.) in Iraq.

I think you're right about Qaddafi as well...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. Just the US?

CBUs are a favorite load for the MLRS and many nations have them. Sometimes described as the Corps commander's shotgun

[slipslidingaway]

6. knr - did not see your thread earlier, thanks. n/t

[Capitalocracy]

9. If the UK really wanted to send a message on cluster bombs...

they could refuse to participate in American wars of aggression where cluster bombs are used. It's all well and good that they sign an agreement not to use cluster bombs, but they took part in our wars in the Middle East with our air support including our cluster bombs. Wouldn't it send a powerful message if they just said OK, if you're using cluster bombs and DU munitions, no Coalition of the Willing.