if it turns out that McQueary was also a victim, would that soften your view?

[fried eggs]

If McQueary experienced abuse at the hands of Sandusky, that could explain his response.

If true, would you be ok with McQueary keeping his job?

[stlsaxman]

1. No.

[hlthe2b]

2. Well, that's some wild speculation... without, AFAIK, basis whatsoever.

What makes you even suppose this could have occurred? Mcqueary was 28 years old when he witnessed the child rape at the hands of Sandusky. When, exactly, would he have been a victim? As an adult?

[Fumesucker]

6. Evidently one of Sandusky's adopted children was a friend with McQueary when they were kids..

:shrug:

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. McQueary grew up near Sandusky and their families were in contact since he was a kid

It's not as far-fetched as it otherwise could be.

That doesn't mean it's true, of course.

[boston bean]

3. Not sure to be honest.

I'm pretty sure he shouldn't be able to keep his job, because he has proven a great moral failing. And I don't think that it matters why he had a moral failing, he did, and was incapable of doing the right thing.

However, a little more human and compassionate understanding of his actions would be the right thing to do.

[PoiBoy]

4. No..

...

[Lady President]

5. Might make it worse

I think it might be worse if he knew the pain of abuse, yet let another child go through it.

As someone who was once in a physically abusive relationship, I am much more protective of women in similar situations.

[seabeyond]

7. i can't. i will be more sorry and empathitic to him, but no. at a certain point in life,

we cannot allow our childhood to be responsible for our behavior as an adult.

if a parent abuses their child because there parents abused them, ....

doesnt work

[pipi_k]

8. I have mixed feelings...

The man who sexually abused my daughter (and a few other little girls as well) was abused himself when he was a child.

I feel badly for the child he was...the one who was abused.

I feel badly that being a pedophile is something these guys really don't want to be. Most of them are ashamed.

But I don't feel badly for them for doing to others what was done to them, or being a party to, or enabling someone else to do it.

[Happyhippychick]

9. His victims were from e Second Mile charity, not PS. And no.

[irisblue]

14. might explain

why he ran away. IF he is an abused child, a survivor, he sure passed it on. but the adult should have been a better person and called the cops himself that night.

[Happyhippychick]

36. Yes definitely.

[Arkansas Granny]

10. No.

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. If it turns out that McQueary's story has massive holes

Would it soften yours?

[barbiegeek]

13. No, he had money to seek help & made a CONSCIENCE choice to do it

He could have saw a counceler, gone on medication, shock therapy, anything to removed himself from all kids because he knew he was sick. Instead he PURPOSELY created a charity to be around children.

[DURHAM D]

15. No. No. and No.

Frankly I think if McQueary had been a victim his response would have been the opposite of what it was. I think he would have been instantly filled with rage and gone after the monster.

[Raven]

16. Only 1 reason why this big, strapping guy did not intervene:

He saw his job at stake. He called his Dad for advice and his father, probably also worried about his son's job, told him to "go through the University's channels." He went through those "channels", washed his hands of the whole matter and continued in his job. This guy was thinking of his future, not the kid's.

[coalition_unwilling]

19. Ockham's Razor suggests you are correct, I think. However, there

are reports that McCreary was friends with one of Sandusky's adopted children when both were kids. That means the boy McCreary may have come into contact with the pedophile Sandusky at a time when McCreary could himself have been the victim of abuse.

I know, a lot of 'could haves' and 'may haves' there.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. So he was a 'victim' who took the pay off, and joined the circle?

Why would he stay? Do you think he was more than a 'witness' to the rapes? Was he in all the way, or was he just guarding the doors? That night he guarded and protected the rapist. He looked carefully to the rapist's reputation, and to his own standing. He walked away with a highly compensated coaching job and continued to work with the rapist and attend his charity events and the works.
2002. He saw a child being raped, and shrugged it off as acceptable if he got paid. If he got paid. And he got paid, and he stayed. Would you?

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. That sounds incredibly unlikely

He's gone through the whole Grand Jury process, but hasn't mentioned to them that he's a victim too? No, just too unbelievable.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. He has either already lost his jor or will when a new head coach is hired

Moreover no other school will hire him with this on his record. His career is over.

[Coyote_Bandit]

21. I realize my opinion probably

represents a minority view but this is how I see it.

(1) Anyone who actually observed the incident had an obligation to report it - to report it within university chanels and to report it to police.

(2) Anyone who did not observe the incident did not have actual knowledge of the incident - any testimoney they might offer in court would be barred as hearsay evidence because they did not have first hand knowledge. Since they did not have first hand knowledge of the incident any comments they make alleging inappropriate conduct might subject them to allegations of libel and slander. These folks do not have an obligation to report the incident. If they have reported it either within university channels or to the police then they ave gone beyond their legal obligation.

(3) The University had an obligation to investigate the allegations and report it to police if there were multiple witnesses or allegations or any corroborating evidence or circumstances. Those who had no first hand knowledge of the incident but reported it up the chain of command ought not be held responsible for the failure of their bosses to investigate. My understanding is that this decision not to report to police rested with the University President.

McQueary should be fired. Whether he too is a victim is irrelevant to anything other than determining what punishment is appropriate for him.

Assuming Paterno reported the incident up the chain of command and assuming he did not have first hand knowledge of this or any similar incident involving Sandusky, he shoul keep his job. However, I'm not convinced that these assumptions will hold.

The University President who chose not to report the incident to police ought to lose his job.

[madmom]

25. This might be true if there weren't already a pattern in place. ...

sandusky was already investigated for similar charges and the school administration, including paterno, knew of these allegations. It was their responsibility to, at the very least, check into it. They did nothing but cover their collective asses. They didn't even ask who the boy was to see if he needed help for god's sake.

[Coyote_Bandit]

30. Ummmm......

From my post above:

"The University had an obligation to investigate the allegations and report it to police if there were multiple witnesses or allegations or any corroborating evidence or circumstances."

"Assuming Paterno reported the incident up the chain of command and assuming he did not have first hand knowledge of this or any similar incident involving Sandusky, he shoul keep his job. However, I'm not convinced that these assumptions will hold."





People ought not lose their jobs and their livlihoods unless they have violated some legal or contractual obligation. When we start taking peoples jobs away for "moral" violations then we have embraced the same shitty slippery slope subjective standards as the fundies. There are laws that mandate the reporting of incidents suchn as this - and they are very clear in specifying who has the obligation to report.

[MH1]

53. I'm pretty much with you, including the implied part about not having all the information.

Especially on item 2. Should Paterno have pushed harder for a real investigation? In hindsight it's easy to say 'hell yes' but like you point out, he didn't actually witness anything, so all he had was hearsay. (Do we know that McQueary didn't refuse to go to the police because he didn't want to get involved? He'd never admit it now if that is what happened.) Still, I'd like to think that in matters of this nature they could have gone to the police and reported what was reported to them. But I don't know what was reported to them by McQueary; nobody does; and probably McQueary doesn't even remember it accurately.

[REP]

22. No.

[qb]

23. Adults are responsible for their behavior... regardless of what happened to them as children.

so... NO

[Pathwalker]

24. It didn't stop me when I was 14 when I stopped a 12 yr. old boy

from raping his sister. I whipped him with his own belt, grabbed him off of her by his hair, and threw him out of the house naked. My molester was my Democratic, decorated war veteran "father", and I was a small child when my rape happened, but at age 14, I reacted instantly, instinctively, with no thought whatsoever. I did not hesitate, even though he was as big as me.
It would explain it, but it does NOT excuse it.

[renate]

43. oh my god.

No words. Except that I truly admire your courage and I'm so sorry for what you endured. :hug:

[Raksha]

59. Good for you! You have guts and good instincts.

I'm very sorry for what you endured as a child, but so grateful the trauma didn't stop you from doing the right thing when another child was endangered.

[madmom]

26. NO, it seems he should have wanted to help the boy, IMO.

[Hepburn]

27. Would make a difference in any criminal charges for failure to report...

...but he has no business in any position which requires that he be a guardian of a child's safety. He is out.

JMHO

[valerief]

28. No. nt

[The Straight Story]

29. only if he drowns kids in a tub, is female, and married to a man we could blame

:hide: :rofl:

[Modern_Matthew]

32. ROFL. nt

[AngryOldDem]

31. No.

About 12 years ago, when I was still a practicing Catholic, I became very active in the Voice of the Faithful, after it started in response to the Boston scandal. Through my involvement with VOTF, I met and became friends with many survivors of sexual abuse. I can tell you that none of them -- NONE -- would stand idly by and witness what was done to them as children. And I think I can safely generalize that response to survivors as a whole. They want the abuse to stop. Now. They don't want to have one more child go through the horror, psychological pain, and grief that they and their families still to some degree endure.

No one -- and I can't stress this enough -- NO ONE should remain silent when they witness abuse. No institution should make excuses for nor exceptions for anyone who is in their employ abusing anyone, let alone kids.

I hope the aftermath of this tragedy leads to nationwide reform of mandatory reporting statutes. VOTF fought tooth and nail for the reform of such statutes and was often stonewalled at every turn. The time has come to stop coddling and making excuses for these abusers, and to put them where they belong -- in prison, for a very, very long time, if not for the rest of their lives.

[JuniperLea]

33. Oh. Hell. No.

That may very well make him all the more damaged and all the more dangerous to others. It's over. Deal.

He and all the others involved are Karma's bitches now... what she says goes... and she don't take vile shit like this lightly.

[riderinthestorm]

34. Perhaps. The rape survivors I've known react to that kind of thing in so many different ways

It's quite possible McQueary froze at the sight. He may have had flashbacks (if he is also a survivor). He may have gotten violently ill (pretty common). Calling Dad would certainly be amongst the possible reactions. If he's never had counseling for it, he may have never come to grips with it. Some (many?) child survivors of abuse don't even remember it.... Of course, pulling Sandusky off that boy and taking the boy to the hospital would have been the best reaction.

There has been some commentary on the fact that McQueary continued to work with Sandusky but that's not really true actually. Sandusky was fired in 1999 so they weren't work mates. Many, many, many rape survivors must see their abuser on a regular basis (daily if the abuser was a relative) and continue to survive in the real world so the fact they continued to work together is a moot one if you ask me. Many (most) rape survivors also take years before they can confront their abuser and turn them in if they haven't done so immediately.

As for his job, he's going to be terminated. I'm sure of it. The entire coaching staff will go and so will he. What will be REALLY interesting however, is if Penn State finds a place for him in another department. If they go to that level of protection for McQueary that will really say something, to me at least.

[Paladin]

35. Absolutely Not. (n/t)

[Tom Ripley]

37. Sure, let's also empty the prisons of all violent criminals who were the victims of abuse

[Ruby the Liberal]

38. No.

That 10 year old kid looked at a 6'4", 28 year old athlete and for a fleeting second, likely thought an immense sense of relief that the pain and torture was about to end. Imagine what went through that kid's mind when he realized his 'help' left and wasn't coming back.

McQ sat on this for 9 years and remembered it so vividly that he was able to recount both sight and sound from the experience in his December 2010 testimony, as the current father of a 2 year old daughter.

Yet,

He saw fit to blast this recruiting letter this past summer, 2011:



Let him find a soul first, and then I will worry about his 'motivations'.

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. If they don't find "victim 8" then it's a problem for the prosecution.

The defense will say that McQueary has a motive to fabricate the story.

[Cerridwen]

40. He continued, for 9 years, to work and live in that environment.

He knew little was done and no one held accountable yet he stayed there and made a career for himself for 9 years.

I'm not sure what I would have done had I walked in on what he did, but I know what I would not have been able to do. I would not have been able to stay in that environment for 9 days much less 9 years knowing nothing had been done for the victim(s).

[riderinthestorm]

42. Many (most?) child abuse survivors live with the abuser for decades without a peep

It's waaayyyy more common for survivors of child abuse to "live with" the situation for decades than not. Even as adults, the survivor will continue to have contact (relatives, neighbors, authority figures like a coach) and never tell.

In fact, none of Sandusky's victims have yet to come forward and identify themselves or accuse him themselves as far as I can tell, even as many of them must be adults now. Its far more common for the "secret" to stay buried for many years. It takes unbelievable courage for a child abuse survivor to step into the limelight. The media firestorm over this (and probably all of Sandusky's victims KNOW now what they would face if they came forward, even if they suspected it back then), would be extremely brutal. Perhaps unendurable to a person whose psyche has been so severely crushed by being abused.

Also, society is very homophobic and even the mere possibility being "tainted" in that way, is a powerful stigma. Probably more so in sports culture than anywhere else.

[Cerridwen]

44. First, have the victims not come forward or is it not yet reported?

There may be reports that haven't made it into the media yet. I don't know.

I know that abuse victims will sometimes continue to interact with their abusers; though I believe it's heavily weighted toward staying in contact with family members who were the abusers.

I don't know this guy's situation and it's not yet come out if he was a victim of abuse; by sandusky or anyone else.

There is a lot we don't know. As I said, the one thing I do know is that I could not have stayed there.


Now, another question is, what is happening on other campuses?

[riderinthestorm]

47. None of Sandusky's victims have stepped forward and identified themselves yet

All of them remain anonymous.

From a news story just yesterday:

"The mother of the boy who triggered the investigation into Jerry Sandusky's alleged child sex assaults says that during the years of abuse the boy suffered he felt he didn't have the power to say no to the former Penn State football coach.

snip

In the interview, the boy's mother discusses how she gradually became aware of the abuse her son was suffering at Sandusky's hands. Her boy would act out violently to intentionally become grounded and avoid seeing Sandusky, she says, and at one point he came to her saying he wanted to know how to look up information on sex offenders.


" proceeded to ask him if there was something he needed to tell me, if there was something going on … it wasn't 'til a month later when he indicated he was uncomfortable with leaving the school with him, and pulling him out of classes at school," she said.

According to the grand jury presentment that led to Sandusky's arrest last week on 40 counts of molesting eight boys over a 15-year period, the coach had unfettered access to the Clinton County high school attended by Victim 1. Sandusky, who volunteered at the school's varsity football program, would often have unmonitored meetings with the boy. On one occasion a school wrestling coach witnessed inappropriate touching between the two in a secluded weight room, according to the grand jury presentment.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/penn-state-scandal-mother-victim-son-afraid-sandusky/story?id=14930219#.Tr6xxXJkgTA



I believe McQueary went to school with the Sandusky children and played on the same team as they did. The families knew each other.

[Cerridwen]

48. "...a tip line has been receiving calls from alleged victims of Sandusky..."

From November 9, 2011 - Penn State president removed, Paterno out immediately

Meanwhile, a tip line has been receiving calls from alleged victims of Sandusky, a source close to the investigation said, and police were attempting to verify the claims.

First, that's a 4 "page" report at CNN. I have no idea of its veracity but I note that piece because it's not being blasted all over the media.

Two, as I said, is it that victims have not come forward or is it that they are not yet reported by the media?

We don't yet know. If the piece above is accurate and if any of those calling in are, in truth, more victims, this will become far more ugly than it is at this point.

There are a lot of powerful people involved in this. There will be/is a clamp-down on reporting that will be/is huge.

Again, I'm going to ask, and what about other campuses?

[riderinthestorm]

49. Are you asking me about other campus' or is that a rhetorical question?

I don't know about any other campus'.

I did go to a Big Ten university and volunteered at the local rape crisis center/women's shelter there which is where I got started working in that area, when I was 18 years old. So my experience with it did begin in a college setting. As to whether other big college football programs have similar problems with coaching staff setting up foundations to specifically facilitate raping young boys and girls, that I don't know.

Beyond that, I have no idea if the media is going to clamp down on reporting about this. It's sports - which is different than politics (referencing the GHW Bush pedo ring scandal that WAS covered up by the media). Many, many more people watch sports than politics, especially college football. Many, many more people have children involved in pee wee football and youth leagues than they have children being mentored as potential politicians. You may be right. I hope not but who knows these days.

[Cerridwen]

50. Both actually; but more rhetorical.

This go round of scandal is being reported. I've worked on university campuses before and have some idea of how closed off they are when it comes to reporting crimes that might cost them "image" which in turn costs them money and/or power/influence.

It's not "just" sports. Though right now it's mainly sports generating money and prestige which is being protected at a horrifically high human cost.

It is part of a broader system of power, influence and corruption that has infiltrated and is poisoning many of our societal systems and that has created our toxic environment; literally and figuratively.

I expect you already know that. I'm typing for those who might not yet have drawn the lines between the systems.

[SomethingFishy]

52. At this point I'm not sure I would want to "step forward"

were I a victim. After watching students riot and turn cars over, I might find myself questioning whether or not I'd survive till the trial.

[Cerridwen]

54. I'm with you. It would be quite terrifying especially if a member of the media

were to broadcast my name. Though I'm pretty sure sandusky's lawyer would also be happy to place any accusers' names in the public eye.

That's why I question if there are any more victims and they're just not coming forward or if they've come forward but are staying away from the media.

I guess we'll know or not know in time.

[mzteris]

41. Not really. And no, he should lose his job.

It might explain the INITIAL freezing up, but it doesn't explain the 10 year cover up.

[Liberal_in_LA]

45. it would soften my view of McQueary, but all of them need to go,

[ellisonz]

46. There's no evidence of this.

[OneGrassRoot]

51. I've had that thought for a few days, and here's how it may affect my view:

It would not EXCUSE him walking away from the shower that day, but it may be the only thing that would be a plausible explanation to me, one which makes him more human and not selfish or cult-ish (worried about bringing down Penn State).

The fact that he stayed there and continued in their employ, knowing Sandusky remained free is another matter. There's no excuse for that, imho. He did that out of his own self interest and chose to turn away.

[markpkessinger]

55. He took a job with an institution he knew had covered up the crime....

...that's pretty hard to get my head around, irrespective of whether he did all he could when he witnessed the crime.

[sibelian]

56. Well, no.

Not really.

[lunatica]

57. How many here have been victims of childhood sexual abuse?

Chances are the abuser uses threats to keep children from saying anything. The abuser can be a terrifying figure, or the abused are terrified of being known to be abused.

[Hamlette]

58. if punishing McQueary makes it so future whistle blowers keep silent, would that matter?

and what about his father. Yes, Mike should have stopped it but he called his dad while still in the building and his dad told him to "come home" or go home or otherwise leave the scene. why not punish the father?