Last night Bill Maher said it was a waste of money to get a degree in art

[abelenkpe]

Then he went on to say we need to emphasize history, science and math. I've seen students bored to tears in math and science class who wonder out loud when they would use the concepts taught there. You know where those concepts are used? In art and music. You cannot teach a kid about proportion, perspective, persistence of vision without using the things they learn in math and science. You can't teach a kid about timing, ryhthm and pitch without using math. You can't teach someone art history without also teaching them about history in general and opening their minds up to different cultures. Teaching art and music gives students an immediate use for the more abstract things they learn in history, math and science classes and solidifies their understanding of those concepts. It is a huge mistake to undervalue art and music and to contemplate not teaching those subjects. They should be requirements as important as reading and writing.

When I was growing up my parents were proud of my success with art but worried I wouldn't make a living at it so they kept telling me to learn something more practical. I stubbornly refused got degrees in art, art history and a masters in film and video. And I'm glad that I did. There are so many opportunities for artists today in film, the Internet and gaming. They are good paying jobs. Maybe not great, but good. And while many pundits complain we don't create anything here anymore we do still produce entertainment. (Even though there is a lot of competition from abroad) So it confuses me when people say studying art and music is a waste of time and money. And that we shouldn't bother teaching those things in school. Why would we get rid of subjects that support learning in science, history and math? Why would we want to discourage people from good paying careers in a field that still exists in the US?

[Ron Green]

1. It's ironic for a wealthy entertainer to talk about a waste of money.

[Capitalocracy]

9. Another waste of money:

HBO.

[TheWraith]

20. No, just Real Time.

Tune in to Boardwalk Empire and you'll get a great example of art direction.

[SomethingFishy]

36. Wow, have to disagree... HBO is the most watched

channel in my house.. Soprano's, Entourage, Real Time, Carnivale, Boardwalk Empire, Game Of Thrones, and that's just a few...

Not to mention the America Undercover series, the docs, the stand up specials..

Sorry but personally I think HBO is the best channel on TV...

[TheWraith]

68. Not to drag the thread off topic, but hey... Carnivale.

It's rare to see somebody else who enjoyed that show. I think it was doomed by being a little too deep even for most of HBO's usual audience.

[JanMichael]

83. Loved Carnivale! It was a little too creepy for most people though.

However what a powerful story line and great casting.

[TheWraith]

85. Yeah, there was the creepy thing, too.

But man, creepy how. Clancy Brown could do such amazing things with his face--going from jovial to radiating evil in the span of a second, without moving a muscle.

[sarcasmo]

82. Same as our house, Bored to Death is great

[Capitalocracy]

87. I defer to your superior knowledge on the subject

I don't have HBO or watch a lot of TV, I was just saying stuff. ;)

[TheWraith]

88. You should watch HBO. Really.

I would recommend you start with Boardwalk Empire and Game of Thrones. Then go back through Band of Brothers, From The Earth To The Moon, Carnivale, Deadwood, and some others. :)

[SomethingFishy]

35. That was brought up on the show...

They also discussed the odds of success...

I disagree with Mahr here as I do about vaccinations but I still watch him, the Barney Frank interview was great and even Tweety surprised me with some in depth info on JFK...

I never understand why people like Mahr and Jon Stewart get thrown under the bus if someone disagrees with something they say.

If I were standing on an island with 1,000,000,000 people and started removing the people who I disagreed with about one thing or another by the time it was over I'd be standing alone. And so would the rest of DU.

[Liberal_in_LA]

2. its not a waste of money to get a degree in art, just don't pile on the student loans to do so

regular amount of student loan, ok. But not 160K for BA in art.

[greymattermom]

3. digital art

Who do you think does all the design for websites? Not the programmers for sure. My daughter has an MFA in illustration and does digital design. It's everywhere.

[Atman]

24. My son got his BS in digital art & design...got an interview with the first resume he submitted.

Maher...I like him, but he can be totally full of shit sometimes. Just like the rest of us if we're uninformed about the subject we're discussing.

However, lost was Bill's larger point; as America falls behind the rest of the developed world in math, science and technology, we're graduating twice as many art majors as science majors. He has a valid point.

I just love the irony of my son getting a Bachelor of Science in art.

.

[roseBudd]

27. I got my BFA & MFA and I am employed in digital art despite not being trained in digital art. ...

taught myself

[Cronus Protagonist]

42. lol I never let designers design my web sites

They are totally clueless about user interfaces. I'm a programmer and do the entire web site myself and the world is better for it. I have 25 years in user interface development... in my experience, regarding web development, these arty folks come out of college absolutely clueless and go downhill from there.

[Merlot]

46. And I never let programmers design my websites

They have no sense of what makes a website appealing to the viewer/user. They don't consider the message, and give everything the same weight of importance. They expect the user to do the "work" of finding information instead of making it an intuitive experience.

Basically, they have no experience in marketing, messaging, or any visual sensibilities to support the message. All these things are important when a business is selling it's products or services.

Designers aren't "arty" people, they are problem solvers.

[mrdmk]

54. Maybe you two need each other

Of course, the programmer looks at other sites (the artwork) and gets an idea of how that can work for him/her, whereas the artist sees the logic of the programmer and makes that work for him/her.

Me, both as a computer technician, graphic artist and a Director of MIS learned early in life to not get a big ego when it comes to the marvel of digital communications. No one person can keep-up with it all. Sorry folks, no man is an island anywhere in our lives...

[October]

69. You need BOTH. /nt

[krabigirl]

81. Best to let usability professionals deal with user interfaces.

[mzteris]

4. the reverse is true, too...

the perspectives you use in art, the pitches/timing/rhythm of music - help you to UNDERSTAND MATH CONCEPTS.

The lack of arts in schools in hurting children's ability to learn science and math.

[Desertrose]

16. +1000!!!

[abelenkpe]

17. Exactly!

They support one another and get students more interested in learning both.

[Cronus Protagonist]

43. I'm thinking a better math teacher would be more effective than handing young Billy a flute

And it's perfectly easy to understand mathematical concepts without banging a drum or blowing a whistle, and if they are needed, these can also be done in the science room to illustrate the work at hand without making kids try to learn an instrument.

I am an artist, by the way, and a programmer, and a musician.

[mzteris]

50. I think you're incorrect. . .

Art, music, math - are inextricably linked. I'm sorry if you fail to see the connection.


And Young Billy - should have BOTH! and an art class.

[Merlot]

48. Math is a right brain function - it deals with abstract non verbal concepts.

Agree 100% - The lack of art/music in schools hurts students ability to learn science and math. They learn by engaging both sides of the brain.

[mzteris]

51. The math scores of the students in the

bilingual program are statistically "better" than their counterparts not in the program. I wonder what "that" means . . .

[firehorse]

60. I've got an art degree from a good school, it taught me critical thinking ...

and how to think like an entrepreneur and not to depend on anyone else providing me with a job. I've worked for myself since 1996 and am happy to do so.

People should have the choice to pick what degree they want to get, but they should also be told the odds of being able to make a living in it so that they can make an informed choice and know the consequences.

They used to say in art school, those with the A's end up becoming professors. B students end up working in other fields. But its the C students who have learned to persevere who become the "famous artists". But even out of those C students, its a low number like 1% that "make it".

Some of my friends from my art school ended up becoming lawyers, working in advertising, teachers, professors, drawing for the Simpsons, working in museums and galleries, working for themselves in somewhat creative fields. All are working. Can't say that about people with business degrees or those whose jobs got outsourced or became obsolete.

[CTyankee]

78. Good infor there! Of course, art opens up your brain, folks, and lets you think more creatively...

No wonder firehorse's friends have become so successful! They have the creative edge of art at work for them! Hello, out there....

[tabasco]

5. I wish more people would realize

Bill Maher is a douchebag.

[SoCalDem]

6. The problem is that there is no glut of jobs, and the jobs that are "out there"

tend to be technology-heavy or low-skill.

There are not nearly as many middle-of-the-road, but well-paid jobs these days.

A degree in art may prove that you know about art and that you had the tenacity to finish college, but you will be very unlikely to be flooded with job opportunities that pay a living wage.
In a time when not so many people went to college, a degree in just about anything opened doors, but that time is no more.

College tends to always be behind the curve..jobs are there, so millions of young people set out on a four year expedition to qualify for those jobs, and by the time four years have gone by, many of those jobs have been outsourced or are not plentiful enough to accommodate the people who are now trained to do them.

[abelenkpe]

25. I dunno

The places I work for and my love too (who has advanced degrees in ethnomusicology something many would consider a waste) both still regularly recruit new graduates right out of school. Even though the industry is up and down it really always has been. but I do know what you mean. Many of my friends from high school studied programming only to find those jobs scarce when they graduated.

[Rabblevox]

7. Maher is frequently an over-educated idiot....

While he is *technically* correct, he is fundamentally wrong.

He's correct in the sense that on a lifetime earnings basis, a degree in Art (or Lit) is not a great investment. He is completely wrong in that he fails to acknowledge the importance of art to a society, or (as you eloquently pointed out), the cross connections between art and other disciplines.

While I sometimes enjoy his rants, I also wish he would grow the fuck up. He's like the bright but inept college roommate who HAS TO BE RIGHT ALL THE TIME!

Give me Stewart or Colbert any day over Maher. They are both funnier, smarter, and more nuanced.

[elocs]

8. I have a friend who got a degree in commercial art 20 years ago.

She was a single mom with a 3 year old and a baby. She loved art, but she also needed to support her children and there were no jobs in the field. Even the best of the graduates were having trouble finding any jobs, particularly ones that paid decent.

She went back to school and got a degree in histology and today runs her own lab and makes a good living. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do and although she was never able to make a career with her commercial art degree I don't believe she thought that time was a waste.

[JackintheGreen]

10. He didn't say studying art was a waste of time

Well, maybe he did...

What he said was that getting a degree in art was a waste of time. It depends, I guess, but I have a BA in music and *I* don't have a job right now. :P

Seriously, though, I eventually earned my PhD in an area studies program and do believe that too many kids are getting, let's call them generally, art history degrees at 20K/year schools. Then again, too many kids aren't up to the requirements for getting STEM degrees, for a variety of reasons. But the failure here, I think, is in a system of secondary education that makes math and science SO DEADLY BORING. In six years of middle and high school I had exactly one teacher who made either math or science interesting, possibly even fun, to do. This is probably typical.

Where Maher completely lost me is when he said parents in India and China don't put up with bullshit, so their kids get science and math degrees. Except I know a lot of these kids from India with such degrees and frankly they don't know shit. They earned a degree based on rote memorization, which is how education in India still works. They have zero problem solving skills. I know young men in India with CS degrees that can't even use unix/linux.

[abelenkpe]

15. I worry that the US wants to mimic India in just learning by rote memorization

And I agree those who learn that way may pass tests but don't really have a solid understanding of the concepts or problem solving skills.

[October]

70. Plenty of lawyers don't have jobs in their field, too.

Read this from the NY Times...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?_r=2&src=me&ref=homepage




Edited to fix link!!! Had posted wrong link.

[RC]

11. It has been my experience that math at any level is taught in a vacuum.

We need to teach Applied math.

Back in another life time I taught a Vo-tech electronics class, heavy in math. Applied math.
One day I was explaining a math problem on the white board, I noticed the lights going on around the room. My back was to the students, but it was obvious anyway. On my inquiry, they explained that they had the exact same math problem earlier in their Algebra class. None of them had gotten it. Applied to a real world electrical concept, they all did.

After classes were out, I called the Algebra teacher. She explained to me that the only was she was allowed to teach her math class was by teaching each example as a stand alone problem. The kids had nothing to relate to. This was back in the mid 90's. Things haven't gotten any better.
Out schools suck big time.

[napoleon_in_rags]

30. There you go. You want to see music/art students interested in math?

Teach an introduction to spectral analysis that converts between pictures and sound, and lets music students modify the sound, art students modify the images.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8MCAXhEsy4&feature=related

[frazzled]

12. Tell that to the alumni of ...

Rhode Island School of Design, including artists Jenny Holzer, Roni Horn, Julie Mehretu, Josiah McElheny, Kara Walker, and Andrea Zeittel; film directors Gus van Zandt and Martha Coolidge and cinematographer Ellen Kuras; glass artist Dale Chihuly; illustrators Roz Chast, Shepard Fairey

Cal Arts, including artists Eric Fischl, Ross Bleckner, Mike Kelley, Tony Oursler, David Salle; numerous filmmakers and musicians

Art Institute of Chicago: artists Thomas Hart Benton, Claes Oldenburg, Ed Paschke, Leon Golub, Elizabeth Murray, Jeff Koons; fashion designers Cynthia Rowley, Halston; writers Vachel Lindsay, David Sedaris, Kenneth Rexroth

I'm just listing at random: it could go on forever.

And for all those who are not "famous," there are indeed many jobs all over for artists: from graphic designers and industrial designers, fashion, illustration, art therapy, film/video. But all of that doesn't even matter: it is a noble educational pursuit--as important as anything else you can "learn."

Bill Maher is such a cretin at times. Thank you for defending the arts ... and congratulations on pursuing your artistic studies.

[Shagbark Hickory]

13. You're both wrong.

Teaching students how to ring up the register at Walmart or McD's is the best education one can get in the new reality.

[frazzled]

14. Education is not solely about getting jobs.

This is the great fallacy that underlies too much of our discussion of higher education.

It's why America is so ignorant. The pursuit of knowledge, whether it leads you to a job or not, is one of the most important life enhancers one can acquire. I'd rather be poor and educated than a rich dumb schmuck.

[libinnyandia]

21. As much as it costs to go to college and how little society

wants to support higher education, if you do get a college degree and your family isn't rich you will be poor. Why is it that European countries encourage higher education and we don't? Low taxes on the wealthy.

[Shagbark Hickory]

22. I couldn't agree more. n/t

[pokerfan]

18. reminds me of a quote

"I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain."
--John Adams, letter to Abigail Adams (12 May 1780)

[ellisonz]

19. We don't teach history - because we don't test for it.

Get rid of the test - teach history.

[drokhole]

23. In the immortal words of JFK...

"The life of the arts, far from being an interruption, a distraction, in the life of a nation, is very close to the center of a nation's purpose...and is a test of the quality of a nation's civilization."

Maher really irked me with that bullshit last night (I know Matthews busted out the great Churchill quote...but I wish he would have used this one, especially considering he was there promoting a book on JFK). In fact, if there were more of an emphasis on Arts & Humanities in our culture, we'd probably be better off as a society. One of the most important aspects of Art is that it engages all of mankind's senses, which promotes learning, creativity and divergent thinking - a quality of which Sir Ken Robinson identifies in this great speech of his:

RSA Animate - Changing Education Paradigms

I do think it is important to understand how "art" (in both form and work) has been bastardized, standardized, and commercialized in the name of profit, consumption, and celebrity. 19th Century artist/writer/designer William Morris considered Art "the beauty which man creates when he is most a man, most aspiring and thoughtful", but also had this to say in his brilliant, and relevant, 1884 essay Useful Work vs. Useless Toil:

I mean that side of art which is, or ought to be, done by the ordinary workman while he is about his ordinary work, and which has got to be called, very properly, Popular Art. This art, I repeat, no longer exists now, having been killed by commercialism. But from the beginning of man's contest with Nature till the rise of the present capitalistic system, it was alive, and generally flourished. While it lasted, everything that was made by man was adorned by man, just as everything made by Nature is adorned by her. The craftsman, as he fashioned the thing he had under his hand, ornamented it so naturally and so entirely without conscious effort, that it is often difficult to distinguish where the mere utilitarian part of his work ended and the ornamental began. Now the origin of this art was the necessity that the workman felt for variety in his work, and though the beauty produced by this desire was a great gift to the world, yet the obtaining variety and pleasure in the work by the workman was a matter of more importance still, for it stamped all labour with the impress of pleasure. All this has now quite disappeared from the work of civilization. If you wish to have ornament, you must pay specially for it, and the workman is compelled to produce ornament, as he is to produce other wares. He is compelled to pretend happiness in his work, so that the beauty produced by man's hand, which was once a solace to his labour, has now become an extra burden to him, and ornament is now but one of the follies of useless toil, and perhaps not the least irksome of its fetters.

[roseBudd]

26. I have a BFA & an MFA, & I had a job as soon as I was ready to give up stripping, in web design

Having a degree, was important, as my prof said, liberal arts degrees distinguish the grad from the nongrad, in that you have proven yourself capable of self direction and the ability to learn. I graduated in '91. Been employed in the same real job since 96. My coworkers who have been laid off this past 3 years are because of what wall street did to the economy

[Fla_Democrat]

29. Gave up stripping?

I always show up too late. :cry: :banghead:





:smoke:

[roseBudd]

37. Eventually the hours and no bennies, plus age, mean it is time to hang up the 5" heels

[NNN0LHI]

62. I admire your candidness

:hi:

[K8-EEE]

28. That really bothered me - our household is supported mainly by my (artist) husband!

He was told ALL HIS LIFE that he needed to put his talent into something "practical" like drafting -- not drawing -- but he blew all that off, majored in art has made a good living in the animation field for 35 years.

True creativity is something that will always be needed and sorry computers don't have it.

[fascisthunter]

32. Wow.... thank you and further good luck to your husband

from an artist who took the same risk.

[belcffub]

40. it seems that those with Art degrees supporting themselves with those degrees

is the exception rather then the rule...

while I was in college I worked in a welding shop doing simple welding tasks. The guy next to me was around 30 and had a art degree from Cornell. He specialized in metal arts. When he got out he tried to support himself with his art. In the end his art was more of a side thing and he did not make enough so welding is what he did. He was obviously a higher end welder then me but his pay was only around $5 per hour more then I was making.

While I do not remember his name I remember him talking about the debt he had from school. I remember his old beater car the broke down all the time and his wife having to drive him to work frequently.

He had more influence on my future then he would ever know. I was a freshman when I started at the welding shop and at first wanted to be a mechanical engineer. After my first semester I decided that was not for me and tried a couple of things. I almost went into journalism. I had completed a couple of courses and did some research on the income I could except. Once I found out what they made on average I quickly started looking at other options. In the end I ended up as a Computer Info Systems major and took most if the Computer Sciences courses for a degree in that a couple of years later. The pay ranges in those fields are much better.

By my junior year the welding shop was laying most of the welders off during the winter months as that was our slow time. I was offered a job working in the office doing computer work and cost analysis. I had learned that following your heart is for the young and foolish and have had no problem being employed in my life with my own educational path... my friends with degrees in arts, creativity (you could get a masters degree in creativity at my school), philosophy, etc have had more time out of work and have incomes around a third what I make. With my own daughters I will try and steer them into studying hard science fields so hopefully they'll have the same outcome...

[abelenkpe]

63. You should let your daughters pick a career path that will make them

Enjoy their work.

[girl gone mad]

74. You should talk to people in the hard sciences..

before steering your daughters down that path.

There is currently a severe jobs shortage for US scientists and engineers. We have a surplus of highly skilled, highly qualified people in most sciences. Top graduates from top schools are taking low paying post-grad work or taking jobs in other areas. I'm not sure why the myth of plentiful opportunity in these fields persists, particularly while our government continues to cut funding and our private sector has shown absolutely no interest in growing their R&D investments here over the long term.

Here is an in-depth report on the topic from last year:

http://www.miller-mccune.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16191

The problem has only grown since. Be sure to read through the comments. Some professors are now begging for quotas since they've been unable to help land jobs for their top tier students.

[K8-EEE]

84. From my perspective, that's not true -- but I'm from L.A.

Maybe I just see it differently because here so much of the people who do well, do well in creative fields. Whether it's screenwriting, set building, editing, whatever it's basically plugging into creativity and and competing in creativity.

It's fine for people to go into science fields but you know what?? If you give up something you love and have a talent for you might find out that what you settled for -- like computers, there's no safety there either. How many IT people do you know pounding the pavement now??

[October]

71. Hear, hear! Though I think some artists are geniuses with computers....

I, too, was bothered by Maher's stupid statement. Where to begin? Everything he raves about involves ART -- from his specially designed suits, cars, hair -- to his set, movies, music...

He has no idea what a contradiction he is to himself on this matter.

[fascisthunter]

31. HA! I have a BFA and am doing well, thank you!

you fool! If it were not for creative people, you would NOT have a job.

[timtom]

33. He's fulla shit!!

My daughter did not excel in any of those areas. She got a degree in Fine Arts in Dance.

It has given her a sense of worth and accomplishment.

What we need is LESS math and science, and MORE fine arts and liberal arts. Too many tunnel-vision people in our society. No critical thinking skills.

(with the exception of the fine people who responded on this thread).

[Odin2005]

34. Our society severely undervalues the arts, it's sad.

That's why, IMO, why it seems like architecture in this country is so ghastly.

[mrdmk]

56. Have to disagree with you!

Our leaders undervalues (loathes) the arts, because art is a reflection of society. Some people (all levels of the hierarchy) do not want too see themselves exposed or more-or-less seen by others for what they really are... To these people, I say too-bad, deal with it!

[MilesColtrane]

38. Yeah, Steve Jobs was just wasting his time taking those calligraphy classes and...

studying philosophy.

Too bad Jobs and Bill Gates never got college degrees in science and math. They could have made something of themselves.

[awoke_in_2003]

39. I am slowly working on an engineering degree...

and the thought of taking an art class confounded me. Why the hell do I need that? Well, I took an art history class, and found it a thoroughly enjoyable experience. I gained an appreciation for something I thought I never would. Oh, and the impressionist period is my favorite.

on edit: we all have to do things in our life that we don't want to, but they usually help us become more well-rounded individuals.

[markpkessinger]

41. So let's say everyone goes out and gets either an MBA or an engieering degree ....

... then we wind up with a glut of both, and those kids still remain unemployed.

[BiggJawn]

44. I have a friend with an MBA, 3 interviews in 18 months.

Brazillion resumes out there, you all know the story...

[lunatica]

45. I'm certainly happy you made it but there are thousands if not hundred of thousands

who don't.

I'm one of them. I was doing pretty well until the people hiring me for my art fucked me over. When I objected, even in a state where artists have automatic rights to their artwork, I was simply not hired again.

But if you got beyond that I truly congratulate you.

Me? I work in administration at UC Berkeley mostly processing reimbursements and struggling to pay my bills every month. Art is something I used to do.

[Merlot]

47. It's been proven that studying art & music help the student

understand math/science. Both sides of the brain need to be developed/engaged.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

49. The idea that certain degrees will get you a job is wrong.

I don't think that any particular degree will get you a job.
The idea that a law degree or business degree will get you a job is B.S.

I earned a Juris Doctor 25 years ago and I never got a job with it.

I got a B.A. in biology over 30 years ago and I never got a job with it. Ten years of college I consider wasted as far as getting a job. I'm glad I have the knowledge of the law degree but it seems utterly pointless.

My parents insisted I get a science degree because they had the fallacious idea that I could get a job with a science degree. Gawd ferbig I study liberal arts or even FINE ARTS! The horror!

I should have gotten a B.F.A. in Painting. For all the employment good it would do. It would do zero -- the same as the biology degree and the law degree.

It is criminal the way our society throws away educated people. I'm a baby boomer that was ignored and thrown away. Now we have another generation of educated people who are not employed--and they have the crushing student debt on top of that.

If we had a thriving economy, artists and musicians and creative people of all kinds would be making money, because the upper middle class would be buying new artworks and going to concerts and performances. Now it's just the top 1% spending millions on paintings by Impressionists and Old Masters. And then Bill Maher would not have to make his false statement that business degrees or "hard" degrees will get you a job.

[JVS]

52. Quoth the English major.

[Dawson Leery]

53. Maher is as erratic as Matthews.

[Mz Pip]

55. The arts are important

and should be part of a comprehensive curriculum. I have a BA in art. I never did anything with it as far as a job went, but having a degree allowed me to get other jobs. back in the 70s there were lots of jobs available to people who had college degrees.

I have a teaching credential and a MA in Counseling and used art a lot when I taught elementary school. Now that I am retired I've returned to art and exhibit and sell my work when I can. I would not be able to make a living off of it and know very few artists who support themselves solely with their art. I know a lot of artists who struggle to make any money at all; some are fortunate enough to have supportive partners who don't mind paying the rent. Some fields are better paying than others. 3D animation is one that seems to be doing okay but you're working on creating someone elses vision for the most part.

Art is not a waste of time. It's an important part of culture. But it is true that it is pretty hard to make a living off of it now. THe art boom of the 70s is long gone and I doubt we will ever see anything like that again.

[We are Devo]

57. Yeah, that made us mad...

Both my partner and I have art degrees. He went on to get his MFA and is now a teacher and working artist. Both of us suck at math and science, lol. Don't people realize that some of us are born to create, others are born to solve problems. Why can't there be room for all of us?

[flamingdem]

58. Maher is a complete idiot on this, he's lacking any insight into being an artist

and encouraging the devastation of art programs. What an ass

[Starry Messenger]

59. Art is undervalued and underfunded in this country.

If there were a WPA program for the arts, you'd see a Renaissance of culture in the US. But it doesn't meet the corporate bottom line, so it won't happen.

[Harmony Blue]

61. A comedian and entertainer that doesn't understand The Arts

or a degree in art?

[Abin Sur]

64. Good advice. Here's the top 12 and bottom 12 indergraduate degrees by salary

http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp

Top 12:
Median Pay by Mid-Career

Petroleum Engineering $155,000
Chemical Engineering $109,000
Electrical Engineering (EE) $103,000
Materials Science & Engineering $103,000
Aerospace Engineering $102,000
Computer Engineering (CE) $101,000
Physics $101,000
Applied Mathematics $98,600
Computer Science (CS) $97,900
Nuclear Engineering $97,800
Biomedical Engineering (BME) $97,800
Economics $94,700

Bottom 12:
Median Pay by Mid-Career

Art History $53,300
Art $52,400
Theology $52,000
Public Health (PH) $51,700
Athletic Training $50,200
Religious Studies $49,700
Recreation & Leisure Studies $49,100
Special Education $47,800
Culinary Arts $46,800
Social Work (SW) $44,300
Elementary Education $44,000
Child and Family Studies $40,500

[Township75]

65. Thanks for posting.

I don't hate the arts, nor think people who get those degrees are stupid.

But financially, they typically don't pay well. Maher is an ass and may have said something broader or more insulting, but the negative theme about getting an arts degree is well justified.

[Abin Sur]

73. I've heard it alleged that graduates with engineering degrees

can pretty much get jobs sight unseen these days because the demand is so high compared to the available pool.

Contrast this with a someone with a degree in art history...about the only job they can get sight unseen is occupying a tent while banging in a drum circle. :)

[girl gone mad]

79. I've heard it alleged..

that you don't know what you're talking about.

Wait, no.. that isn't an allegation.. it's a fact.

Study: No Shortage of U.S. Engineers
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/oct2009/db20091027_723059.htm

U.S. colleges and universities are graduating as many scientists and engineers as ever, according to a study released on Oct. 28 by a group of academics. But that finding comes with a big caveat: Many of the highest-performing students are choosing careers in other fields. The study by professors at Rutgers and Georgetown suggests that since the late 1990s, many of the top students have been lured to careers in finance and consulting.

"Despite decades of complaints that the United States does not have enough scientists and engineers, the data show our high schools and colleges are providing an ample supply of graduates," said study co-author Hal Salzman, a public policy professor at Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey. "It is now up to science and technology firms to attract the best and the brightest graduates to come work for them."

The onus for improving the stock of scientists and mathematicians thus falls more on employers than students, the report's authors say. "If a 12th grader asks us for advice about whether to pursue a career in physics, math, or engineering, what would our advice be?" says co-author Lindsay Lowell, a professor at Georgetown University. "It's difficult to say. There is such a surplus of talent."

The study, entitled Steady as She Goes? Three Generations of Students through the Science and Engineering Pipeline, was conducted with funding from the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, a New York-based nonprofit that focuses on science education. The report analyzes longitudinal data to examine the transition of American students in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) from high school into the labor force.

Mr. President, there is no engineer shortage
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-innovations/president-obama-there-is-no-engineer-shortage/2011/09/01/gIQADpmpuJ_story.html

“A chronic shortage of engineering students threatens America’s role as the world’s leading innovator and continues to impede our nation’s fragile economic recovery,” wrote Paul Otellini, a member of the President’s Council on Jobs and Competitiveness, in a recent opinion piece for The Washington Post. The council is holding a series of meetings to find ways to fix a perceived national problem: an engineering shortage. Otellini and the council claim that such a shortage seriously threatens America’s ability to create jobs, and that the U.S. risks losing its innovation edge to China and India, which are producing a million engineers per year — 12 times as many as the United States. The council hopes to increase U.S. engineering output by 10,000 engineers per year in an effort to deal with this crisis.

The logic behind this argument is flawed in many ways. First let’s tackle the myth of the Rising East’s mastermind engineers. China and India’s engineering graduation numbers have been used for the past decade to justify arguments that the United States is in trouble. My research team at Duke University dispelled common myths about China’s and India’s engineering-education advantages in December 2005. The graduation statistics most commonly touted then were: China graduates 600,000 per year, India, 350,000, and the U.S., 70,000. We found that, in 2004, when comparing apples with apples, the U.S. had graduated more engineers (roughly 140,000) than India had (roughly 120,000).

What’s more, China’s tally of 350,000 was suspect because China’s definition of “engineering” was not consistent with that of U.S. educators. Some “engineers” were auto mechanics or technicians, for example. We didn’t dispute that China was and is dramatically increasing its output of what it calls engineers. This year, China will graduate more than 1 million (and India, close to 500,000). But the skills of these engineers are so poor that comparisons don’t make sense. We predicted that Chinese engineers would face unemployment. Indeed, media reports have confirmed that the majority of Chinese engineers don’t take engineering jobs but become bureaucrats or factory workers.

Then there is the question of whether there is a shortage of engineers in the United States. Salaries are the best indicator of shortages. In most engineering professions, salaries have not increased more than inflation over the past two decades. But in some specialized fields of software engineering in Silicon Valley and in professions such as petroleum engineering, there have been huge spikes. The short answer is that there are shortages in specific fields and in specific regions, but not overall. Graduating more of the wrong types of engineers is likely to increase unemployment rather than create jobs

[Abin Sur]

80. I stand corrected. That having been said...

It's instructive to note the earnings potential and likelihood of unemployment for various degrees.

From http://graphicsweb.wsj.com/documents/NILF1111/#term=

The three most popular engineering degrees vs. the three most popular arts degrees, unemployment % and median earnings:

ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING 5% $86,000
MECHANICAL ENGINEERING 3.8% $81,000
CIVIL ENGINEERING 4.9% $76,000

LIBERAL ARTS 7.5% $48,000
COMMERCIAL ART AND GRAPHIC DESIGN 8.1% $45,000
FINE ARTS 7.5% $44,000

While I'll certainly grant that my point overreached, there is merit to the argument that engineering degrees provide much more security and material benefit than arts degrees.

[B Calm]

66. The panel (rightfully so) jumped his ass pretty damn good over this.

[October]

67. One of his more stupid pronouncements.

[xchrom]

72. I thought maher & Sullivan shows their true ignorant,

Conservative selves.

Stupid, both of them.

I enjoy maher for his skewering of rekukes - but past that?
He's an idiot.

[quaker bill]

75. Maybe, maybe not

regardless I am paying for one. My daughter is a BFA/MFA major and seems quite a talented painter.

I was told that majoring in botany was stupid. My parents even refused to pay for it. They thought I needed to be an engineer. I worked my own way through to a degree in botany and chemistry. I now supervise engineers.

[DeSwiss]

76. I like Bill Maher.....

...usually. And I like Jon Stewart and Steven Colbert, as well. But they're all COMEDIANS, okay?

If we are at a point where we are discussing the ruminations and joking banter of comics in place of serious discussions on the issues of the day, then I submit to you that it is already over and we just haven't realized it.


- And that that is the true waste of time......

[KoKo]

77. Sounds like he has the New Administrations "Talking Points" down ...

No Arts or History, Sociology, Anthopology Majors need apply. There are no jobs for you!

:puke:

[Book Lover]

86. And many years ago, he said, in a roundabout way, that the true purpose of higher ed

was to get an education, not get a degree.

As I remember the context, IIRC it was on his old show, Politically Incorrect, and the topic of conversation was somewhat the same - what good is it to get a higher-ed degree. Maher said something like "I don't remember what I got my degree in. I went to college to get an education."

Bill will say anything that comes to mind as being the "best" thing for him as the host and main antagonist to say.