If you want to be enraged at Penn State's obvious coverup, go ahead.

[Dreamer Tatum]

But stop using it as a pathetic attempt to connect molestation with football in general. And
stop trying to draw a connection between bail being provided and "privilege."

If you don't like football, don't watch it.

If you don't like that bail was extended to THE MOST NOTORIOUS MAN IN CENTRAL PENNSYLVANIA, WHO PROBABLY HAS MORE EYES ON HIM THAN THE GAME ITSELF, then go "occupy" his front yard.

[appleannie1]

1. And stop taking it out on the players that are dealing with an upheaval that could effect their

hopes and dreams for the future. They are innocent of wrongdoing.

[Dreamer Tatum]

2. "But they're emblematic of a system that...that...that..."

"picked me LAST in grade school!!!"

[thucythucy]

15. I think it's ironic

that you defend a culture that some are accusing of being abusive by pointing out that those making the correlation between that culture and abuse were probably abused by that culture as kids.

Yeah, I was always picked last for team sports. And it always hurt. I was also ridiculed, bullied, and even beaten by some of the "star athletes" at the schools I attended, all the while I was being told what "heroes" they were, and how team sports -- especially football -- builds "character" etc. etc. Some of the abuse came from gym teachers and coaches who genuinely seemed to believe that being able unable to play in their little game somehow made you a less worth while human being.

So I'll say it again, just so you're sure to understand: you're saying that the only reason people are saying the culture of sports in this country is abusive (especially toward children) is that they were abused by it as children. Which, you believe, proves that it isn't abusive at all.

It's just too bad irony isn't a competitive sport.

[snagglepuss]

23. Well said. Welcome to DU.

:applause:

[Dreamer Tatum]

27. No, I'm saying the overwrought and overreactive responses are likely rooted in psychology.

And not ethics, morals, or law.

[sibelian]

77. Ah "psychology"

In other words, thinking. So, the responses are roooted in thinking. Do you mean something other than thinking when you say "psychology"?

[Dreamer Tatum]

84. Yes, FEELING. I'm not willing to condemn all of football because of how someone FEELS

about something they aren't directly connected to.

[sibelian]

105. So, from psychology to thinking to feeling.

I'm quite happy to condemn phenomena because of how someone feels about it even they aren't directly connected to it.

Of course, it depends on the thing. I'm a big fan of pornography but lots of people that aren't directly connected to it think its horrible. I think their feelings are misguided.

Do you think those annoyed with football are motivated by misguided feelings?

[thucythucy]

88. So precisely how "wrought" and "reactive"

should we be about a story involving the rape of a ten year old, witnessed by someone who does nothing to intervene, which is then covered up or at the very least not addressed by those in positions of power, who are then defended by the "fans" of a "game" -- which defense includes rioting by students upset that their beloved coach has been fired? Any ONE of these occurances should disturb you, that they all happened in tandum should disturb anyone who has any claim to "ethics, morals, or law."

And I notice you didn't address my salient point.

[Spazito]

30. Oh my, well said!

"So I'll say it again, just so you're sure to understand: you're saying that the only reason people are saying the culture of sports in this country is abusive (especially toward children) is that they were abused by it as children. Which, you believe, proves that it isn't abusive at all."

Spot on.

[EFerrari]

76. Irony is a competative sport here.

lol

:)

[coalition_unwilling]

92. Bravo! I don't think the OP gets it but you clearly do. - n/t

[kath]

118. +1000

[lbrtbell]

45. No, they are not

The players wanted to "honor" their fallen coach by bringing him the ball after they won (which they didn't--HA!). No word of honoring the victims, just the guy who covered up for the perp.

People like that deserve nothing.

[liberalhistorian]

70. I'm sorry, but my sympathies are with the TRUE victims,

the innocent children who have been scarred for life by not just the sick perpetrator but ALL THOSE WHO KNEW AND DID NOT REPORT IT BECAUSE THEIR FUCKING PRECIOUS FOOTBALL TEAM WAS MORE IMPORTANT.

I couldn't give a tenth of a pellet of rat shit about the football team or the players right now. And there IS a sports culture that allows this kind of shit to flourish and be covered up.

And the players wanted to HONOR Paterno during and after the game without one single fucking word about the poor victims, who are the TRUE innocents and whom Paterno allowed to go to their fate KNOWING what Sandusky was doing? Fuck them and fuck their goddamn team. I'm THRILLED that they lost.

[coalition_unwilling]

96. +1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 - n/t

[Hosnon]

106. They were going to take the game ball and give it to Paterno if they won.

So fuck the players. They have chosen not to remain innocent.

[Ian David]

3. I wish George Carlin were still alive to comment on this. He'd know what to do. n/t

[warrior1]

4. big picture

Had Paterno, et al., had not been caught cover this up they still would be at this school. That's probably the only thing that they are sad about.

[cherokeeprogressive]

5. And Paterno's a republican! This is hugh!11 n/t

[Jumping John]

6. Oh and so you should avoid forums. Cause I know they upset you. Me smart. Sheesh

[Fumesucker]

7. He didn't pay any bail..

They didn't call it that but he was basically released on his own recognizance.

[markpkessinger]

22. According to reports I read bail was set at $100k n/t

[Dreamer Tatum]

29. False. nt

[Spazito]

49. Sandusky did not have to pay one penny, not one penny of bail...

He was released on $100,000 unsecured bail. What does an unsecured bail bond mean? It means this:

"An unsecured (surety) bail bond is where a defendant signs a bond stating their promise to appear before the court. If they fail to do so, they promise to later pay the court an agreed upon bail bond amount. An unsecured bail doesn't require that the money be offered up front."

http://www.criminal-law-lawyer-source.com/terms/bail-bond.html

It appears your post, and not the post to which you responded, is "False".

[Dreamer Tatum]

54. So he's on the hook if he doesn't show up?

That's still bail.

Not sure what your point is, in any case. The guy is toast, dead to rights.

[Spazito]

67. The post to which you decried "False" stated....

" He didn't pay any bail.." That post was true, yours was not. Crystal clear, no?

[Dreamer Tatum]

69. He is financially responsible if he doesn't appear. nt

[H2O Man]

111. Crystal clear --

and 100% accurate.

Thank you.

[Gman]

8. Thank you very much

[saras]

9. The brain damage caused by football outweighs Sandusky's deeds by a factor of a thousand or more

[Bluenorthwest]

10. Never seen a game. The culture of football, as this week makes

evident, is unhealthy. I have always known this. It is a game favored only by Americans of a certain sort. A sort of a cult thing, and I only hear about it when there is some horror like this, every few weeks.

[cherokeeprogressive]

12. "favored only by Americans of a certain sort." Whut?

Um, yeah.

http://americanfootballeurope.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Cup

[apocalypsehow]

16. "It is a game favored only by Americans of a certain sort" - care to be more specific?

[former9thward]

17. You have never seen a game.

But you are a expert on how "unhealthy" of a culture it is. And you have always known it. Get a life.

[inna]

19. He's entitled to his opinions - which may be as valid as yours or perhaps more so.

[apocalypsehow]

20. No one said he wasn't entitled to his "opinions." But around here, we usually don't broadbrush much,

it's just not the progressive thing to do. But perhaps that's the problem to begin with....

[inna]

35. what, ugly and uncalled for insinuations now?... great, keep going.

[apocalypsehow]

52. "It is a game favored only by Americans of a certain sort" - Address that first, then get back with

me about what you imagine are some kind of "ugly and uncalled for insinuations."

[Dreamer Tatum]

"perhaps more so"? Oh brother. nt

[inna]

42. ? what's your point?

[Dreamer Tatum]

44. No one is more entitled to their opinion than anyone else. Pretty simple. nt

[inna]

50. +

very good

:thumbsup:

[lbrtbell]

57. Prejudice is never a valid opinion. - n/t

[Dreamer Tatum]

31. Oh, but he/she HAS a life, and it's SO much better than ours, don't you know. nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

21. Of course you've seen a game, Captain Superior. nt

[lbrtbell]

53. I'm a football fan

There is no "culture" and it is not "unhealthy". There is no "certain sort" of fan, either. Football fans range from left-leaning intelligent people who have no athletic ability (like me) to right-wing neanderthals.

My uncle, God rest his soul, was a fine man who was a passionate football fan. He would have been furious about the evil deeds at Penn State.

Try having the guts to face the truth--that pedophilia exists in all walks of life. Being able to write it off as only being done by "those people" makes it easy to think "it'll never happen to anyone I know."

But it can. Face facts.

[Prometheus Bound]

60. +1

Seems you hit a nerve with the 'cult thing'.

I do know some people who love it for the game itself, but that cult thing is pretty weird. I've never got that. One of my high schools tried to build a moronic cult around the school football team to build school spirit. I left after a year.

[fishwax]

68. "a game favored only by Americans of a certain sort"

What sort is that?

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. Perhaps the point is that the sacred cow of the football program stopped the proper reporting

and such distortion of priorities needs to be eradicated. What if football was only important to Penn State as golf? Wouldn't that get a proper sense of proportion for a game ,and allow real life to take priority where it needs to?

[Dreamer Tatum]

24. Do you know for a fact that any football coach in the same circumstance would've acted similarly?

No, you don't, so you have no business calling football a 'sacred cow.'

[boston bean]

32. Well, it was a football coach that finally called the cops. The high school football coach....

[Dreamer Tatum]

37. Then that sort of takes the cultural phenomenon of football off the hook, doesn't it? nt

[boston bean]

43. It was just a fact. That is all. Thought you would like to know.

But I don't agree with much of what you have written.

[fishwax]

71. are you sure? -- it was reported to the school by the mother of one of the victims

There was a wrestling coach (he was head coach of the elementary school wrestling program) who encountered Sandusky with Victim 1 and testified as such to the grand jury, but as far as I know he was not the one who initiated the investigation or contacted the authorities.

[boston bean]

82. yes you are partly correct ... see below

An assistant principal who characterized Sandusky as "very controlling" in his mentoring relationships with students - as well as "clingy" and "needy" when a student broke off contact - said Sandusky was barred from the school district after Victim 1's mother called to notify the school, and authorities were contacted.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57323072/sandusky-victim-1-called-hero-for-speaking-out/

[muriel_volestrangler]

56. It's damn obvious it's a sacred cow

Look at how much it dominates American life. Politicians give opinions on how football conferences should be organised! High school games get reported on TV! Have you any idea how absurd this looks to people outside the USA?

[lbrtbell]

61. You've never seen how other countries are about soccer?

Soccer fans make football fans look apathetic. Countries grind to a halt so people can watch the World Cup.

Seriously, learn about other cultures before you presume to understand them.

[muriel_volestrangler]

79. Yeah, I live in the UK (and lived in the USA too); the USA's obsession is worse

[Upton]

90. Bullshit it is.,.

I don't know that the USA has an equivalent to the UK's soccer hooligans. In fact, come to think of it, weren't you over in the Sports Forum ranting and raving when Qatar was awarded the World Cup?

[muriel_volestrangler]

103. I did point out that Qatar didn't have the proper facilities to hold a World Cup

and that it was ridiculous to award it to them, since it's not the place for a vacation, women may not be able to dress as they wish, and it's homophobic.

Of course, Qatar was competing against the USA for that World Cup. My opinion (expressed on either DU or another forum, I can't remember) was that it was reasonable to award Russia the 2018 World Cup (they were competing against England), seeing as they are a nation with a history of a capable team.

"I don't know that the USA has an equivalent to the UK's soccer hooligans"

Penn State? No, not as violent, but their fans still riot. But the point isn't that no-one in Europe takes football more seriously than any American takes American football - you can find idiots in any culture; it's that the mainline culture in the USA glorifies it more. Hence the TV coverage of schools and universities, and worship of university coaches and their programs. Hooligans are not mainstream culture.

[frylock]

107. the USA's obsession is worse..

that is utter fucking rubbish.

[muriel_volestrangler]

109. Look at the money in college football

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_college/2009/07/how-much-revenue-did-your-favorite-fbs-school-take-in-in-200708-this-chart-will-tell-you.html

and tell me that it's not an obsession. 5 billion dollars in revenue! Top coaches get paid millions. They put a statue of Paterno up.

[Dreamer Tatum]

65. You should really get out more often. Soccer is LIFE in most countries.

And youth soccer games are followed on TV in Europe. Politicians opine on soccer all over Europe and South America.

The world reads a lot less Tolstoy than you think. You should put down your American shame for a few minutes and investigate.

[muriel_volestrangler]

80. See #79 (nt)

[Dreamer Tatum]

81. Oh, one person says different? Well, that settles it, then.

Nice to see the DU Sample of One brigade is out again.

:eyes:

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. That's alright - I'm helping to educate you

Since you're too busy to do anything like look at a profile to see where someone lives, it's obvious you need some help in the basics of what other countries are like.

[RobinA]

113. Or That This

wouldn't happen in a non-football situation, which it clearly DOES.

[SomethingFishy]

13. For me the correlation isn't between pedophiles and football

but covering for pedophiles and football. Had Sandusky been the janitor and not the football coach he would have been arrested on day one.

[MadBadger]

58. I didnt realize that something happening once is a pattern

[CTyankee]

95. We can't be sure that this was "something happening once."

The fact is that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, as the saying goes. this is a wake up call. Tail wagging dog at a state university. Hello?

I am the last person to say this happens everywhere. Certainly not at UWM since my husband and his entire family attended Wisconsin state universities. What I am saying is that where such power is concentrated, the possibility for abuse does occur. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

[Quartermass]

14. I don't watch football.

I agree, I don't watch football because I don't like the game. People should avoid generalizing and guilt by association.

The guy should be reprimanded for not reporting the injustice, but the real target people should be getting upset at is the guy who is charged with 40 counts of child molestation. Caution should be the order of the day here, lest the guy slips through the cracks of justice and the wrong guy gets hurt.

I don't think the other guy should lose his job though. A lot of this is just overreacting.

Now if it happened a second time then he should lose his job permanently.

[inna]

18. unrec'd for ridiculousness

[spanone]

25. i watch football. will continue. but have to worry about the culture that exists around sports.

and yea, i think his ass should be in jail.

[boston bean]

26. Gosh, people are so protective of some things. Sorta like fighting for the right to call a woman a

bitch.

[lunatica]

28. Self righteous aren't you

Do you even care or are you just tired of the subject in general?

[Dreamer Tatum]

33. Encouraging people not to broad brush and overreact is self righteous?

Wow, your handle suits you perfectly.

[lunatica]

64. Thank you. It's why I picked it.

[AngkorWot]

34. If people are going to use this to attack football, there's not much point in arguing with them.

They've got shit for brains, and are not worth caring about.

[SidDithers]

36. K&R...nt

Sid

[melissaf]

38. It's not football or universities

that allow for disgusting corruption. It's power structures. Anything that creates a power structure can bring corruption.

[thucythucy]

93. Power structures coupled with the idea that

the people at the top are superior in some undefined but absolute way from the common herd. You see it in the Catholic church, where priests and those in the hierarchy are pretty much "sacrosanct." You see it in organized sports in all the drivel about how coaches and top players have "character" and are "role models" etc. etc. "Molding young men" to be model citizens, and all of that...

When you put all those things together -- power, money, and a sense of innate superiority -- you end up with the fixings for a category five moral meltdown.

[devilgrrl]

39. If anything, this case explains a lot of the misogyny in the football community.

No wonder they don't want women around.

[Dreamer Tatum]

40. What misogyny? "They?"

What the hell are you talking about?

[devilgrrl]

46. Oh! The way female reporters are treated, domestic abuse cases...

And sexism in general.... You're dreaming dreamer.

[Dreamer Tatum]

51. So you have data that shows it's more prevalent in football than anywhere else?

Great, let's see it.

Oh, wait. You don't.

:eyes:

[ScreamingMeemie]

47. This woman spends a lot of time within the football community.

:shrug: I think people are letting their feelings get out of hand here.

[devilgrrl]

63. You. I believe.

I stand corrected.

[evrstrong]

41. Well, there definitely was a connection between the football

locker room, and Sandusky getting his rocks off in a big way, the pig!

[Fuddnik]

48. Hhe was trying to train a new center.

[coalition_unwilling]

55. I'd like to quote a post by DUer FarCenter:

College football is homoerotic tribalism

Tribalism in the sense of identification with a group of heros going out to do battle for the tribe; identification with tribes uniforms, insignia, and regalia; and adoption of a totem (what the heck is a Nittany Lion?).

Homoerotic as evidenced by the exaggeratedly masculine shoulder pads; the bulging crotch with the protector; the tight, shiny pants conducive to butt-patting; and the shiny helment designed to emulate the glans of a penis.

Not to mention the group showers, towel snapping, and "horseplay".

Note also that in the tribal structure, Paterno plays the role of the shaman or medicine man, who imparts wisdom to the tribe and gives magical powers to the young heros, while staying off the field of battle and guiding them from a distance.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=2280046

********************************

Best anthropological explanation for the connection between football and molestation and an analysis that completely gives the lie to your admonition not to draw connections between molestation and football.

[Dreamer Tatum]

62. That is a steaming pile of shit.

Pads protecting shoulders and nutsacks are homoerotic? Maybe in the eyes of the shithead who thought that up.

Take a 90 mph baseball off your cup one day, and tell me how it's homoerotic. Please.

Whomever thought up that ridiculous crap is turned on by football, not repulsed by it.

[EFerrari]

72. So being turned on by homoerotic ritual is not a good thing in your opinion?

Okay.

[coalition_unwilling]

73. I notice you didn't say anything about the football helmet

simulating the glans of the penis. So may I take it that you agree about the psychological meaning of the helmet?

[Dreamer Tatum]

75. If that's true, then the human head itself simulates the glans of the penis.

Are motorcycles homoerotic?

Were suits of armor basically just big gay costumes?

[Fuddnik]

86. Ever sit on a Harley?

The don't call it a Milwaukee Vibrator for nuthin'!

[Tom Ripley]

108. Yes. See:Scorpio Rising

[EFerrari]

74. One of my mentors, Alan Dundes, had a great football lecture

that he gave in his folklore class. It rendered 300 undergraduates hysterical and silent by turns.

[kath]

119. Could you summarize. please? Sounds very interesting.

[EFerrari]

120. It's been so long, I don't know if I can get his argument right.

I can find two articles on the net but they both require subscriptions.

Football as Erotic Ritual, http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,946181-2,00.html

Into the Endzone for a Touchdown, http://www.scribd.com/doc/52221426/Alan-Dundes-Into-the-Endzone

He considered not only details like fanny patting and presenting but also the relationship of the sport to the university fathers and their own masculinity, iirc. He used photographs of real games to highlight his points.

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. "Nittany Lion" refers to mountain lions that roamed nearby Mount Nittany until the late 1880's

Other than that, this post is a steaming pile of shit.

Shoulder pads PROTECT. The cup PROTECTS. Do baseball catchers wear cups out of some kind of homo-erotic bent? How about his shiny catcher's helmet? Is a hockey goalie's mask reminiscent of the head of a penis?

Next you'll tell us that turtle-necked sweaters are symbolic of uncircumsized penises...

Holy shit.

[coalition_unwilling]

91. Funny that you mention baseball and cup protectors. Because

there seems to be an inordinate amound of cup-jostling (or pants-adjusting) going on on the average baseball team for it all to be strictly innocent.

I'm wearing a turtle-necked sweater right now, now that you mention it :) It's chilly in Los Angeles today.

[cherokeeprogressive]

94. Turtle-necked sweater? Why do you hate circumcision?

I always found cups to be fantastically uncomfortable.

Is the helmet worn by NASCAR drivers symbolic of a penis too, and if so, is the helmet worn by IndyCar and F1 drivers symbolic of a clitoris? Just asking.

Cold and drizzly in Big Bear right now. Radar shows big rain coming.

http://radar.weather.gov/ridge/radar.php?product=NCR&rid=nkx&loop=yes

[LWolf]

59. er...okay.

If I want to be enraged, I will. If I want to make a connection, I'll do that as well. I haven't made the connection you refer to, but I'll be damned it YOU will give me orders about what to do or not to do.

I don't need your permission for a damned thing.

Do you really try to start conversations by giving orders or permission?

[Dreamer Tatum]

66. Do you continue conversations by blindly doing the opposite?

Looks like it to me.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LWolf]

89. That's not a continuation of a conversation.

It was never a conversation to begin with.

If you ever want a conversation, be sure to let me know.

[liberalhistorian]

78. +1,000,000,000

The lengths to which some self-righteous sanctimonious cult-of-sports worshippers will go to defend their precious game over the permanently-scarred lives of innocent child victims just astounds me.

[coalition_unwilling]

97. +1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 - n/t

[Lex]

99. Exactly! nt

[CreekDog]

117. That's what he does here

you're noticing now, haven't you noticed before? :rofl:

[LWolf]

121. Never clicked on a post by this one before.

In hindsight, I've been smarter than I thought. :P

[CreekDog]

98. thanks for telling us how you feel about the Occupy movement

ps-you forgot to bash Al Gore.

:eyes:

[NYC_SKP]

100. Not only do I associate professional sports with abuse, child abuse, and abusive behavior, all wrong

I'll go further and point out that schools are for learning, for education, for enlightenment, and these fucking sports programs have jumped the motherfuckin' shark.

Fuck this team, fuck this school, we need universities to be about teaching, not about team sports kicking ass and feeling good about it.

There, I feel better.

Off to watch my student's theatrical production of "Waiting for Godot".

:patriot:

[RobinA]

114. While I Don't Blame Sports

for child abuse, I will agree with the rest of your post. I don't live near my college, which I graduated from in 1980, but I do take a drive through ever couple of years. They call me several times a year wanting money. This past year the caller asked if I had seen the campus and all the changes they were making with the donated money. I said yes, and that I felt from the looks of things that too much money was being used for sports and other non-academics. Long pause, then "Oh."

Fact is, I go back there and I see the exact same classroom buildings and library (ok, they did some renovation on the science building), they are building the second new student union since I left, new fieldhouse(s) abound, acres upon miles of new athletic fields all manicured and lined and labelled as to what particular sport and gender practices on that field, and a ski run. Seems no one can practice on just any patch of grass these days and the girls intramural lacrosse team can't play in the same place as the boys intramural lacrosse team. And a SKI RUN???? This isn't Dartmouth, it's western PA. The ski run is about two feet long. And this is no sports powerhouse school, it's just a college. It's disgusting.

[Lex]

101. If you don't like what people say here, then don't come here.

Kind of like "If you don't like football, don't watch it."

[RetroLounge]

102. unrec this steaming pile of apologist shit...

:puke:

RL

[Stinky The Clown]

104. Say hi to Frankie

[TBF]

110. Some folks will defend any behavior - even the most reprehensible. nt

[FloridaJudy]

112. Anything that people worship can be exploited by abusers

Religion. Sports. Politics. The arts.

Just look at Roman Polanski, and the pedophile priests. I'm sure most football players, coaches, fans, clergy, and film directors are perfectly decent people, but when they're placed on a pedestal by the public a lot of them are going to get away with crimes that would be unthinkable for anyone else.

Back when classical musicians were the Rock Stars of their era, some of them had private lives that were the last word in debauchery. Nothing much has changed since.

[nessa]

115. It's not about football, it's in every profession...

the one's with access.

Check out some statistics
http://www.cpiu.us/statistics-2/

Parents, family members, teachers, coaches, priests, what do they all have in common? Access to children.

[CreekDog]

116. this used to be considered a callout --do you have a friend somewhere?

insisting it's not a callout?

:crazy: