Just one question that hasn't been asked -- What do you LOSE if you can't afford the new monthly du

[Donnachaidh]

Seriously, I've seen the post and read for free meme being posted -- but what do the folks who cannot afford the monthly payments have to deal with?

More ads? Less forums?

If you're going to spring much higher rates on folks who are struggling to begin with - at least have the courtesy to be open about the differences they will be dealing with.

You know -- transparency stuff :-)

[Spock_is_Skeptical]

1. I would think same as now...right?

ads and not being able to post in the groups, I guess.

...seems to be the same

[Donnachaidh]

2. Dunno. But one would hope it would be spelled out before the hike took effect.

I have not seen that yet.

[csziggy]

5. I got the feeling that Skinner's post was just the first notice that fees

Will be changing and some of the thoughts about how they will be changing.

I did NOT get the idea that any of the things in his post were taking effect yet or immediately.

Maybe the feedback that he is getting will help structure the changes and help the administrators come to a solution that satisfies as many DUers as possible while still bringing in enough money to keep the site running.

This place has got to require massive amounts of bandwidth and a pretty good chunk of space to archive the old information. We're going into an election year which means even more bandwidth and more money.

If anybody can come up with a way for Skinner to get the money to run DU without requiring some sort of payment I'm sure he would appreciate it.

[uppityperson]

3. "On DU3 you will still be able to buy a star which will remove all of the ads from the site and prov

"On DU3 you will still be able to buy a star which will remove all of the ads from the site and provide you with access to special functions and features".

I would like to see this explained.

[Donnachaidh]

7. uhh, is this extra on top of the $3.50 per month?

This is too damned confusing. And considering the fact that a large portion of folks here struggle to just keep one star -- which is 5 bucks a YEAR -- a sudden jump from that fiver to almost 10 times that is incredible.

An almost TEN TIMES the cost increase to the poorest DUer's cost for not seeing ads.

That's a huge increase for the unemployed, and the struggling. The 99%.

:shrug:

[scarletwoman]

10. No. You donate, you get a star. Your $3.50 a month gets you a star. nt

[uppityperson]

11. It is NOT $3.50/month but $5/month or $42/yr. nt

[October]

24. That's what I understood, as well. /nt

[beac]

4. I am interested in knowing this too. Especially about the forums.

I try to donate every quarter, but my annual donation has never come up to $42. I could deal with more ads, but would be very upset to lose the ability to post in some of the side forums (like "Gardening", for example.)

That said, I would have to think long and hard as to whether I could justify almost doubling my annual cost for posting in those "sideline" DU forums as that money has been coming out of my "DONATIONS" budget line and would impact what I could give elsewhere.

[gkhouston]

6. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2300356&mesg_id=2300552

[FirstLight]

9. can't afford to either

especially since i left the BANK earlier this year...

[scarletwoman]

8. From Skinner's thread: "On DU3, Groups will be open to people without stars."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2300356&mesg_id=2300552

[Donnachaidh]

12. that is NOT what I posted -- I want to know what non-payers LOSE

Because they will be having to deal with less. That is always the case with sites requiring monthly/yearly fees -- because quite frankly, if there wasn't *goodies* open only to subscribers - what would be the point of paying?



Let's have some TRANSPARENCY here please.

[scarletwoman]

14. Sorry, I should have addressed my reply to post #4 who was concerned about access to groups.

What I've understood from Skinners thread is that non-subscribers would be stuck with the ads, and would not be able to use the DU Search function - only the Google DU search.

A pain in the ass, yes, but not much in the way of limited access, imho.

It sure didn't appear to me that it would be any different than what non-donors experience now - aside from the positive change that non-donors would have access to groups.

[uppityperson]

15. Also from Skinner's thread: " "On DU3 you will still be able to buy a star which will remove all.."

"On DU3 you will still be able to buy a star which will remove all of the ads from the site and provide you with access to special functions and features".

What does this mean?

[fishwax]

13. the search function, I believe, will be one

As now, everyone can use the google search, but only donors can use the DU search feature.

[femrap]

16. So to avoid the PayPal fee of $1

it would be best to pay once per year....so $42.00 plus the $1 Paypal....or use Uncle Sam and at least employ the Postal Workers and mail a check which only costs 44 cents. Obviously, I'm on a budget.

Before du3, one could pay only $5.00/year to get by. Now it's $42.44. And that's a what???? An 849% increase.

849% increase. My wages have never gone up that much...now CEOs, sure!

849% INCREASE.

Please don't insult my intelligence w/ this stuff about 'NO MORE FUND DRIVES.'

I'm in shock.

You tell us that 'Oh, we don't need these Fund Drives....we're cool. We're making a good living' and then sock us with an 849% increase. Spin it however you want....but it's an 849% increase.

$5 to $42.44/year. $42.44 is a monthly electric bill for me in the spring/fall.

And I live in a pathetic one bedroom apartment with one fucking horrid kitchen which is impossible to cook in, but I do.

Are you going to ban those poor folks like me who question your intention?

I still can't get over an 849% increase. :wow: :wow: :wow:

[uppityperson]

17. thank you.

I didn't want to do the math, thanks for doing it.

But Du is making so much off its ads that it won't have to beg with fund drives anymore. See? Neither do I.

[femrap]

18. If one signs up for

an entire year, one should get a 'deal.' Like 2 months free or something. I've been in sales/marketing for too long and you haven't ..... at least give some sort of discount for people. Geez. Fucking dickering over money at DU? Gee, what a fucking concept. I should have seen it coming.

And I can't see who responded to my 849% increase. You must have been nasty in the past....

[uppityperson]

19. If someone wants to tell femrap I said "thanks for doing the math", I'd appreciate it

Even if you can't see me, and aside from your snark, we are in agreement. However, you do get a deal if you pay for the entire year at one time. $42 if pay for the entire yr at one time, $60 if make payments.

It sucks.

[ScreamingMeemie]

32. uppityperson thanked you for doing the math.

While we all have our bad days, uppityperson isn't someone I would characterize as particularly "nasty". Perhaps you were having a bad day yourself? :hi: Sometimes I clear out my ignore list...except for the silly "forced ignores with people I was friends with" due to a paranoia streak that went through the admin 2 years ago.

[femrap]

53. My Ignore list

keeps me sane. I could look through and de-ignore Uppity. Thanks.

[uppityperson]

73. Thank you, appreciate you doing that

I've had my bad days and gone round with a few who may have me on ignore. It always surprises me later when I get a "I can't see ignore" because except for 2 people, can't remember the initial incident. thanks again for taking time to pass on the message.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. that's the problem with ignore lists

except, you probably can't read this.

[inna]

20. you're absolutely right

[Atman]

21. It is a LIE to call it an 849% increase and you know it. You can choose to pay NOTHING.

Pay nothing, you'll get a 100% decrease. The new rate is also a decrease for me, because I contribute more than $42 currently.

Again, you don't have to pay anything, and you still can use the site.

[femrap]

23. Really, rich

dude? Do I have to look at viagra ads?

Listen my math is absolutely fucking correct. $5 to $42.44.

Do you have to unzip your pants to count to 21?

Annual contributors should at least get some sort of 'deal.'

And I, and I'm sure others, don't appreciate you shoving and showing your money in our faces. It's tacky and extremely inappropriate....that's typically what repugnants do....'FLASH THE MONEY.'

By the grace of Goddess/God, you are financially stable. Lots of us have been caught up in the outsourcing of jobs....but you just go ahead and jam it down our throats.

Your comment is not appreciated.

Hey....since you're so wealthy, maybe you could pick up the costs of some of those more unfortunate DUers.

Not me, of course.

[sad sally]

25. May I say your #3 line is a winner (or is that weiner?) - thanks for a much needed laugh.

p.s. your math is right. on friday got notice health insurance went up $360, so imagine cash to this outlet (DU) will have to be forgone...

Also got a "letter" from Mrs. Obama asking for a donation - it included a postcard with the first family; the donation card had $25 $50 $100 or $other amounts they needed - guess they hadn't heard that increased health insurance costs will be my "donation" this year.

[femrap]

54. You're welcome.

Boyz think they own math.

I'm sorry to hear about your health cost increase. I just don't know how much further the greedy corporations can push us. Thank Goddess for OWS...that's the only organization that I will donate to.

I'm unemployed and have been for close to 2 years. I watch every penny.

[Atman]

27. I certainly wouldn't contribute for someone as rude as you.

But I've bought plenty of stars for DUers in the past, and I'm sure I'll do so again, but like I said, not for rude people.

I addressed this in another thread and suggested ways which I thought would help for people who couldn't afford the new yearly fee. I wasn't shoving anything in anyone's face, just stating a fact: if you contribute nothing now, nothing will change for you. I'll see a slight reduction. You chose to be offended by it and get all insulting/insulted. Maybe I misunderstood your other post...has someone been forcing you to pay $5 to read and post on DU? Is anyone going to force you to pay $42 in the future?

Skinner has a business to run. The expenses for a site like this are huge. Advertising will support his new business model, combined with donations. You were never "donating" to help keep DU alive, you were just paying $5 to avoid ads. But that doesn't pay the bills to keep the site running, so it was determined that it would cost more to opt-out of the ads. I can understand why you and many others think it sucks, but no one is saying you can't continue to be a part of the community. Other contributors and sponsors will continue to subsidize your participation. It's a business model as old as publishing.

No one, at least not me, was making any statement about our relative financial conditions. Sorry you took it that way. I hope things look up for you soon. I'll give out a few stars this year, but not to people who piss all over my shoes.

(BTW, Skinner plainly stated that if you donate your $5 before the end of the year you'll be grandfathered in for next year).

[femrap]

55. I said what

I felt about this change from Donation to Service Fee. If you consider that 'rude' so be it. You just didn't like the funny Line #3.

Rude? Wow.

You might not realize it but many of us are living The Greater Depression. Why do you think OWS has hit such a nerve with the public? Money is extremely tight and will get much tighter as the Federal Budget cuts funds to the States for such things as heating subsidies for the poor and elderly. Doing that is RUDE. Hell, it's CRUEL.

If there is No Greatest Page nor Recs, I won't waste my time wading through what is unimportant. I come here to get the news that the MSM does not cover. I like the recs...saves me time.

I want to see the Product (du3) before I have to pay for it. It's a Service Fee now, not a donation. And I want snail mail. I won't give PayEnemy another $1. That's the only power I have....where I send my money.

I don't really want to hear about 'business models' on DU. I did the Corporate life and had 'business models' suck my soul dry...it's all about the money, man, and keeping the kids in private schools and keeping up w/ the Jones. I don't want to hear it. It's just bad timing w/ the Holidays approaching and little in the way of $ or hope in this pathetic, greedy, sewer of a culture.

I can't believe you think I pissed on your shoes....now to say that to me is rude. As Jack said, "You can't handle the Truth."

[DonCoquixote]

77. rude dude or dudette

Heaven knows I can and have disagreed with femrap, but your bit of snark is the sort of thing that used to get people tombstoned.

We all disagree, we all can get passionate, that means we get RUDE. Part of who we are as leftists is that we deal with a variety of people, many of whom piss us off, but despite the fact that we do step on each other tails, we realize that we have more in common than not, and that if we do not want to get steamrollered by the right we need to stick together. Your talk seems to speak of clubs, as in "I will shower my charity on those that I like, but NOT you."

[woo me with science]

29. Well said. nt

[jeff47]

40. Perhaps you should spend a little less time in a blind rage and a little more time reading.

Annual contributors get a deal. It's right in Skinner's thread.

[femrap]

57. Should have been in the OP...

I and others thought the $3.50 was the monthly charge. Now as I read 'the fine print' way down the thread, I see it's a $5/month service fee. He should have said that up front in the OP.

Not nice to hide the costs down in the thread.

'blind rage'....you boyz are so dramatic.

[jeff47]

59. It is in the OP.

"Instead, stars (and the benefits that come with them) will be available for purchase on a monthly or yearly basis for as little as $3.50 a month."

He doesn't explicitly state the monthly cost in the OP. But whenever you see monthly and yearly options with "as little as" you can be sure that's the yearly cost.

[femrap]

60. Do you sell used cars?

By stating the Fees like this....it just ends up leaving the customer pissed-off. Just be straight-up with the damn cost.

[jeff47]

64. Not arguing it's ideal. Saying it's there. (nt)

[Codeine]

42. Wow. That's as nasty a post as I've seen in days around here.

Dial it down a notch.

[EOTE]

56. Your math is incorrect. But that's no reason to be so nasty about it.

The mistake that you made was to think that you could determine the percentage of increase by dividing the new annual cost by the old one. In actuality, you want to divide the DIFFERENCE between the two costs and that will give you the percentage increase. So, 37.44/5 or 748%.

And, as has been pointed out, annual contributors DO get a deal. It comes out to be $42 annually rather than $60 for annual contributors.

So really, no need to be so nasty.

[femrap]

58. So glad

to know that you have plenty of funds to pay MORE than the annual $42 Service Fee.

Personally, I don't believe it's appropriate to 'flaunt' your prosperity especially given that many of us are enduring extremely hard times.

My math is correct. People who donate $5 now will have to pay $42.44 for the same product.

And if there's No Greatest Page and Recs, the product has diminished its greatest benefit.

[EOTE]

71. Your math is not correct.

I corrected your math earlier. But your confusion about the math is no reason to lash out at others.

[woo me with science]

22. An 849% increase, because DU is doing so well.

Yes, couching this as "no more fundraisers" is insulting as hell.

Welcome to the corporate DU.

[LanternWaste]

44. I imagine your experience will change only as much or as little as you want it to.

"Welcome to the corporate DU..."

I imagine your experience will change only as much or as little as you want it to.

However, as it appears with the added teen-melodrama of "corporate DU", we may safely presume it will indeed change quite a bit for you.

[woo me with science]

46. Gratuitous hatefulness,

as is to be expected now at this former liberal oasis.

DU and this party are certainly changing, and not for the better. Thank you for your very personal illustration of that.

[MADem]

30. It is pretty steep. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

33. and, that's per EACH user account, too.

ka-ching! ka-ching! ka-ching!

no wonder some folks are freakin' right out. :o

[Donnachaidh]

35. THANK YOU -- THAT is what I was trying to point out!

I swear to God -- it's as if I've stumbled into a used car sales lot!

My question was WHAT does the person who cannot pay lose when the new DU takes effect -- STILL -NO- definitive answer.

Yet we get the *you can buy a star and get it for free* -- but that star you are urged to buy only lasts for a month.

ONE MONTH.

SPIN this all you want DU -- you are effectively shutting down access to the folks who need an outlet like this, but cannot afford it.

[mistertrickster]

38. How are they shutting down access? Do you lack access to TV

and radio because they play ads?

I think DU is a pretty good deal either way. I'd like to see a third option in which one could pay the yearly fee AND view ads, so that someone else could get a star for free.

Either way, with ads or without, it in no way limits access.

[dionysus]

48. no one's shutting down access to anything... you'll just have to view ads.

the melodrama today is priceless...

:rofl:

[RegieRocker]

80. How will we view ads? Placement? Popups?

[femrap]

52. Used car lot...

that's it. I thought the Administration had taken a class in Marketing Spin with all the fine print deep down in the thread.

This should have waited 6 weeks until the new year. It just seems that du3 has not been thought out...or someone thinks that the DLC is a good thing.

And I'm not paying any money to PayEnemy and I want to see this du3 before I have to pay for the service.

Next thing you know, all threads about OWS will be deleted. Did du incorporate???

[Kali]

69. um you do know there are free adblock programs

and the site will still be open to all

I think there is a corollary question - what do the people who pay the full amount actually get?

and lots of people seem to be missing the special deal of donating or getting a star now for the $5 amount will be good for a whole year, so you can decide then if it is worth the whole $42.

[pitohui]

74. i've never paid a fee on paypal as a donator

where do you get you're charged $1 to donate to someone from paypal?

i just made a donation to another site thru paypal and it wasn't yet acknowledged, now i will go back and see if there is a $1 fee from paypal to make donations and i didn't pay it hence my gift didn't go thru but for years and years it has been free for me to GIVE donations, i am only charged a fee when the person giving me the donation hit the wrong button (the button for sales/shipping), as far as Paypal as concerned they have not charged me for sending or getting any donations ever and i only pay a fee as a receiver, when i don't want to bitch somebody out for "donating" to me but hitting the wrong (sales) button that incurs a fee

[laundry_queen]

78. There's a $1 fee for donating to DU

through paypal. I just donated (to hopefully grandfather my star in before I have to deal with the ads) and I got charged a $1 fee. I find it odd as when I was selling on ebay it was against paypal's terms to charge a service charge to cover paypal fees, but maybe things have changed or maybe DU just calls it something different to get around it. Maybe because it's a 'donation' not a sale of a service. I dunno.

[femrap]

79. I have always been charged a

$1 fee by Pay/Enemy to donate to DU....that's why I use snail mail. At least I keep Postal Workers employed. And I don't really care about getting the 'I donated to DU' by my name during the fundraiser. I eventually get the little star.

After Pay/Enemy denied donations to Wikileaks, I refused to use them.

It doesn't matter. After all of this fuss, I've come to see that the administrators of du and I are on very different paths. My Alerts have been ignored. My questions to the administrators are never answered. Why am I coming here? I can call my local Cable TV and get treatment like that. I don't need to have my concerns disregarded by supposed Lefties.

There are some posters here that I like, but all in all, I seem to get a ton of grief about my stances on various topics that involve women. My Ignore List is lengthy. Do I really need this? I think I've developed a bad habit. And with this introduction of du3, maybe it's time to stop this bad habit and move on.

The administrators have growing families and obviously need to support them. But I don't have to.

[DonCoquixote]

76. Not to mention

why the hell would we even do business with Pay Pal, as the CEO, Peter Thiel is a major supporter of right wing causes?

I understand that a site is not free, and that ads are one way to pay for it, and I can even accept that, given the choice between charging those of us who are broke more, and running the ads, you can run the ads.

However, The idea of giving people bigger megaphones because they can pay for them is outright BS. This is the place where a poor person, like Bobbolink, can speak as much as some Millionaire, and get more respect.

Sorry Skinner, this is BS.

[Whisp]

26. I think Skinner kind of jumped the gun in that post.

Not very well thought out and should have waited until he could answer some questions that should have been anticipated.

And the delivery making it sound like this is such a grand special deal, when it's waaaaay more expensive than the previous minimum, kinda makes me laugh in an unfunny way.

[Atman]

31. Consider it a focus group.

I've offered a few suggestions. Maybe he'll implement some of them. Either way, the site is still free to anyone who wants to use it.

[golddigger]

61. Yep! This kind of reminds of a certain company called nexflix...

the way it is being presented.

[sufrommich]

67. Only if they offered Netflix with commercials for free. nt

[MADem]

28. More ads, I guess. nt

[Phentex]

36. Interest...

;)

[SidDithers]

37. Wahhhh...

:nopity:

Sid

[dionysus]

41. vaht? was you shaying shumthin.... about not being to afford 16 cents... a day.... to meeee? vaht?

:rofl:

[boston bean]

43. this post and the one above it disgusts me. nt

[dionysus]

45. otay.

[SidDithers]

47. This, and many more of your posts, amuse me...nt

Sid

[lbrtbell]

51. You sound like the 1%

Someday, you may end up in the position that other poor people are in. When that happens, I hope somebody posts the same thing to you.

[supernova]

39. Hrm

Traditionally, I've made a once a year donation. When I could, I've bought stars for others and sometimes people have bought stars for me. Thank you.

I'm not keen on a monthly bill. I prefer to make a one time payment. Will that option still be available?

[L0oniX]

49. ...candy.

[Uncle Joe]

50. The ads dramatically slow your computer down and you can't post Poll OPs.

Thanks for the thread, Donnachaidh.

[laundry_queen]

62. Exactly.

and I use the DU search function which will be unavailable unless I can pony up $42/yr (a HUGE increase for me, broke single mom of 4, full-time student). For a LOT of us, the annoying (and computer slowing) ads, along with no search or poll posting *does* = second class citizens.

[InvisibleTouch]

63. I haven't been able to afford a star in some time.

I don't mind the ads (don't even really notice them), and the only restriction I run into is if I occasionally want to post in one of the smaller groups. I can still read everything, just not post. But it's not that big a deal. I'm not a super-active poster, mostly a reader (lots of great info and truly the *best* source for news), so it doesn't affect me that much. For someone who posts a lot to the smaller groups and forums, though, it could be an issue.

[Bobbie47]

70. agree

Mostly a reader myself, so I never even notice the ads. Sorry Skinner I never click on them either.

[L0oniX]

65. No more avatar?

[greytdemocrat]

66. I like pie!! n/t

[Rex]

68. As long as GD, LBN and the Lounge are all still free

then I won't be losing anything. DU3 is gonna ROCK!

[truedelphi]

72. I'll make this comment one more time and then shut up -

Our household no longer does monthly subscriptions at all, because the banks tend to hold such "hits" against a bank account until the one day of the month when your balance is very low.

After paying over two hundred bucks for a radio subscription that kept bouncing - and we were under so much pressure due to other parts of our life being weird, we couldn't figure out where the $ 4.95 charge was coming from to stop it, we no longer do such subscriptions.

Are there different plans being thought out? Twice a year payments of $ 21.50? or something along those lines?

Does Skinner et al really want to handle thirty people a day PM'ing him with "Please stop the electronic fee from hitting my account this week, as my boss died, and no one is cleared by the attorney to process our paychecks," to "The dog ate my paycheck and we can't have that fee run through till it is replaced"?????

[pitohui]

75. same here, we don't do monthly subscriptions since katrina

we learned the hard way that the more monthly bills you have to chase down in the aftermath of disaster, the more hassle...we got rid of all that shite

this may be a minority problem but for those in that minority it is important to be able to pay a bill and have it paid w/out feeling commited to some hassle of a subscription

[No Elephants]

81. Has anyone tried asking that question in the ATA forum?

I haven't checked that forum yet, but that seems like the best place to post the question if you want an admin to answer it.