So now the haves and the have-nots are duking it out here in GD..

[Fumesucker]

It's blindingly obvious who here has been flat busted at some point in their lives and who has not..

Empathy, it's what *used* to separate liberals from conservatives, now of course it's fine for liberals to make jokes about people who are hanging on by one fingernail.

I just spent about a quarter of my net wealth to buy toilet paper last night, I splurged and bought the medium sized package, food stamps don't pay for bumph..

[NightWatcher]

1. If we dont donate, can we still read, and post?

If so, what's the hubub bub?

I'm not paying for it

[Fumesucker]

3. Yeah, we can stick around as second class citizens..

Another liberal position..

[Coyote_Bandit]

9. Some of us have been second class citizens for a long time

You just need to live in a red state or believe in some kind of God. And if you also happen to be poor then you take the trifecta......

[Fumesucker]

12. Try living in a red state, being poor and not believing in a god if you want to see ugly up close..

[Coyote_Bandit]

26. If

you don't believe in God you may be treated badly by red state residents.

If you do believe in God you may be treated badly by some DUers.

Both are intolerant and wrong.

[Fumesucker]

31. A list of all the atheist politicians in Washington DC..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Stark

[Coyote_Bandit]

43. ???

I could give a rats ass whether a politician is athiest or Hindu or Muslim or Buddhist or Christian or pagan or of some other faith.

I'm far more interested in whether or not they serve to advance any protect my needs and interests.

It is anyting but liberal and progressive to be anything other than tolerant and respectful of another's religious faith - or lack thereof. Belief - or the lack thereof - does not make one better than another. But there sure are a whole bunch of folks - both athiests and people of faith - who think they have the answers and the right to judge me for not sharing their choices regarding religious faith. How narrow-minded and intolerant.

[Fumesucker]

47. There are about as many atheists than Jews in the USA..

It's easy to find Jewish politicians in DC..

There is only one atheist.

You are clearly fine with one point of view being virtually excluded from the national conversation.. Just as long as it's not *your* point of view.

[Coyote_Bandit]

53. Uhhhhhhh.........No

"You are clearly fine with one point of view being virtually excluded from the national conversation.. Just as long as it's not *your* point of view."

Really? I judge politicians by whether or not they serve to advance and protect my needs and interests. I don't give a rats ass what religious faith they do or do not hold. Apparently, you do.

Judging politicians on the basis of their religious faith - or lack thereof - is the stuff of right-wing fundie mega-church pastors. And, apparently, some athiests.

Pot meet kettle.

Welcome to my fucking ignore list.

[Fumesucker]

63. What if there was only one Jewish politician in Washington DC?

Would you say that would indicate a bias against Jews?

Edited for speling.

[Wait Wut]

97. Red state? Check. Poor? Check.

Believe in a God? Half check.

I've also been homeless, dirt poor and lived on rice and ketchup for awhile.

I also know that when I go to a restaurant I don't order the most expensive thing on the menu. (inb4: "at least you can eat at a restaurant" not always so). I'd love the surf and turf, but I'll settle for the lasagna. It's a nice restaurant, the service is good and the food and atmosphere are far better than the cheaper place down the street. I don't give a damn if the asshole at the next table is judging me because I ordered the $8.95 entree and not the $23.95 dinner. I'm having a damned good time with my friends and enjoying some awesome lasagna.

But, if my life turns around, dinner's on me. :)

[Defectata]

98. +10,000

[cleanhippie]

18. Believing in a god gets one branded as a second class citizen?

You have that backwards, friend. Non-believers in this country are the most disliked and distrusted minority out there.

[LanternWaste]

45. I imagine this is an instance where

I imagine this is an instance where one is defined as second-class only if one defines that position themselves...

Not having contributed or donated, and not seeing a time in the near future in which I may, I simply do not perceive myself as second class.... regardless of whether I play the martyr-card or not.

[jeff47]

46. How, exactly, are we free-users "second class"?

[emcguffie]

89. There are quite a few nice features, if you have a star.

I know, because I usually do not have one, as I am one of those folks who is descending into poverty -- in my case due to chronic illness, forced early retirement, and not enough money to pay my monthly bills. Buying shoes for my daughter is a very big deal.

There are several features that come with having a star. For once, I think without a star you can't post in a group forum, the small forums for people who share a particular interest or hobby, such as the astrology group.

There are others, but right now I have a star, so I might misrepresent what you cannot do. The star I have is thanks to some kind person who gave it to me. Oops, maybe it's gone already, because this is the fundraising drive?

I know it doesn't seem like a big deal to most people who can afford to contribute. It can be a very big deal to those of us who cannot, and can be a bit more than just inconvenient. It can keep you out of some conversations that you might want to participate in.

[intheflow]

99. Skinner's post says groups will be opened to non-members.

And your star last a year, so it won't expire with this fund drive unless you've already had it for a year.

[Ruby the Liberal]

49. You think that members here without a star are second class citizens?

Thats just sad.

I am quite surprised at the outcry over a stupid star. I have donated to help with costs so that this site can remain free for everyone who wishes to read/join/post. The stupid star was never a consideration and am saddened to see this boil down to that.

[Fumesucker]

69. It's not the star..

My OP was about the attitudes displayed, I personally don't give a damn about the star.

[Bryn]

65. and without avatars?

I will miss my avatar that I created. :(

[JNelson6563]

68. Wow. Really?

I've been a donor and a non-donor. Life didn't really change for me. I didn't feel like a 2nd class citizen because I chose not to donate. I felt like a person that made a financial decision to not donate to DU.

Non-donors have never been able to use search (but the now available google DU search works pretty well--available to all), post in groups (DU3 will let non-donors post in groups) or view DU without ads (unless using software to block them).

I really don't see what the fuss is about. It's a forum on the tubes, who cares if one has a little star by their name or not?? Plagues, famine, war & misery of all sorts going on but people are actually getting all up in arms (as well as raising the hue & cry for all to join) over the issue of what it costs to get a little gold star.

Oy.

Julie

[Fumesucker]

70. My OP wasn't about stars..

It was about the attitudes displayed in the discussion over fees..

[JNelson6563]

84. Sorry. Didn't realize we were discussing the discussion.

I stand corrected, that really is important!

Julie

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cirque du So-What]

4. Those poking fun are not 'liberals'

and a cursory glance at who's doing it will separate the sheep from the goats.

[RKP5637]

5. Yeah, I noticed that too. None generally know empathy anymore IMO unless they've

needed some and then they come a running for all they can get. I recall a party wherein there used to be a mutual concern for others, but this party has changed radically from the one I joined.

[QC]

6. DU has been moving in the direction of D(LC)U for some time now.

This latest change is very fitting, if you think about it.

[RKP5637]

34. ... kinda a corp. change ... n/t

[Starry Messenger]

7. Class wars are largely the basis for most of the conflicts here, I think.

This issue with the membership fees is just underscoring it.

[Fumesucker]

10. I've been trying to ignore it but this issue has really made it crystal clear. n/

[piratefish08]

8. i think Skinner may be an Agent Provocateur sent by TPTB to divide DU against itself.

or not.....

[CTyankee]

13. maybe it's just a case of not being able to continue DU with the other system.

I really trust that that is the case here. The numbers weren't adding up and the admins couldn't make a living. If it meant this plan or a kind of financial armageddon for DU, which would we rather have happen?

[sufrommich]

11. Anybody can still post for free. Over at Fark it's $5.00 a month

if you want to read all the OPs or free if you just want to read only the OPs that make it to the public front page.I guess I don't see what the problem is, nobody is getting kicked off of DU.

[Fumesucker]

14. That of course excuses all the jokes about those of us still temporarily embarrassed millionaires..

[sufrommich]

21. Your OP said absolutely nothing about jokes being made about

people who can't afford the new fees, I guess I was just supposed to know that that is what you were talking about. I haven't seen anybody joking about it.

[Fumesucker]

24. I read this thread as a poorly disguised joke..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2302938

[mistertrickster]

30. You have a point . . . that poster seems insensitive of what unemployment means

for people who live in that economic limbo.

I don't think that is representative of the vast majority here though.

[sufrommich]

33. I just started reading the DU rate increase threads, I didn't

realize there were so many of them. I hope no jokes were made about peoples financial status, I just don't see it as a big problem as long as everybody can still post.

[Fumesucker]

37. I was talking about the attitudes displayed..

I don't really care about the star or whatever but the attitudes of some on those threads is very dismissing and even humorous toward those who have less.

[Occulus]

28. Did you READ the OP?

"now of course it's fine for liberals to make jokes about people who are hanging on by one fingernail."

It's right there.

[Fumesucker]

32. Literacy, how the fuck does it work?

[DainBramaged]

17. Figures.......

[HereSince1628]

25. I'm pretty sure you cannot post in DU Groups without a star.

I don't think that's gonna change under the new fee structure.

[Patiod]

27. No, that's wrong. Groups will be opened up to all.

According to Skinner's own post:

"Good question: On DU3, Groups will be open to people without stars. On DU3, we are doing everything we can to raise the profile of the groups, and get lots more people posting in them."

[HereSince1628]

42. But I think that rule is in place currently...n/t

[MineralMan]

58. Actually it does change. Everyone will be able to post in Groups.

[SidDithers]

60. It absolutely is going to change under the new fee structiure...

All members, paid or not, of DU will be able to post to groups in DU3.

Sid

[dionysus]

36. 12 cents (yearly), 16 cents (montly) a day for DU is highway robbery!!1!1!!11!!

:sarcasm:

[phleshdef]

15. You are being undeniably childish. If you dont want ads, you pay. If you dont want to pay...

...then you view ads while you use DU, which ALSO helps pay for the maintaining of the site. Its a damn good deal to be honest. If it really bothers you that much, go elsewhere... where you will STILL most likely be viewing ads to help pay for whatever site it is you leave DU for.

[DainBramaged]

19. You missed the point completely, but that's OK , you've missed them before too.

[phleshdef]

23. Then by all means, explain the "point".

I'm sure whatever you "think" it is, I didn't miss it. I just think its bullshit.

[DainBramaged]

38. We know what you think about the rest of us.

[phleshdef]

44. There is no "we". There is only you. And you obviously don't have a point.

Otherwise you wouldn't be such a coward about explaining it.

[DainBramaged]

56. Keyboard commandos love to use the word coward

so sad, too bad.

[phleshdef]

61. I love to use a lot of words. You are still trying to change the subject.

I mean, I knew you didn't have a point anyway. You just wanted to run your mouth off and move on. But I'm not letting it go.

[DainBramaged]

80. Of course not. I noticed long ago the word coward is thrown around a lot on the Right

and I don't run my mouth, but then again, keyboard commandos who think they're tough guys need to rethink their bullying tactics.


Something you're good at.



If you don't think the haves have an attitude towards the rest of us, you're as blind as you are dumb.


Have a nice live kommando.

[phleshdef]

87. Oh my, you're correct! And the word "the" is throw around by the right a lot too!

I'm suspicious!

[mistertrickster]

I agree. It's a good deal either way. If people don't believe it, they should

look at the dark ages of primitive technology which is the FreeRepublic site.

That's what happens when people don't pay one way or the other . . .

[MineralMan]

62. I don't donate to not see ads. I donate to help keep the discussion

flowing. I see ads everywhere. I don't pay any attention to them. That's not why I donate. I donate because I can. I also don't use people's star or no star status when I judge the value of what they post. That would be stupid.

[laundry_queen]

64. "Don't like it, go elsewhere"

that sounds strikingly familiar, I think it originates from a particular political party telling those who don't agree with them to leave their own country....

[DainBramaged]

81. Along with other words like coward they enjoy using

:hi:

[mistertrickster]

16. Painting with an awfully broad brush, aren't we? I remember seeing a lot of "thank you's"

when DUers bought stars for others . . .

[Fumesucker]

20. Someone bought me a star the other day..

That's not nearly as likely to happen now..

I'm glad you're fine with all the joking about poor folks, lets us know our place.

Edited for punctuation.

[mistertrickster]

22. I'm not fine with joking about poor folks. I would slam that down as soon as

I saw it.

I think my point is that a few jerks don't spoil the entire site. Thousands post here daily. You've got to expect some idiots . . . that doesn't mean that "liberals lack empathy" imho.

[Fumesucker]

29. It's not just a few...

Read the threads about the new financial arrangements..

[mistertrickster]

35. Okay, well, I haven't seen much "poor bashing" myself, but if you and others are

seeing it, we should do something about it.

It should not be tolerated here, for sure.

[Fumesucker]

39. It's harder to see bigotry if you're not on the receiving end of it..

But if you are it's crystal clear.

[LanternWaste]

72. I think that if we look closely enough

I think that if we look closely enough, look hard enough, and spend enough time looking for it, we will see bigotry anywhere we want to-- even in places where it doesn't exist.

[Fumesucker]

73. Tell it to Barack Obama..

Plenty of people don't see the bigotry displayed against him..

Does that mean it doesn't exist?

[LanternWaste]

76. The one is not predicated on the other.

The one is not predicated on the other. :shrug:

[Fumesucker]

79. You implied you didn't see bigotry..

Perspective is a funny thing..

[Patiod]

40. Oh for God's sake

You can still post on DU if you're flat broke (which I was just last week - it's not fun to drive to the PO every day to peer into an empty PO box, hoping for a freelancing check, hoping my cell phone won't be cut off or I won't run out of gas before a check comes).

You will still be able to post in groups.

You will just have to look at ads, which i do on almost every other site I visit.

At least here I don't have to "audition" to be a commenter, as one does on Jezebel or Gawker.

Yes, it would be lovely if we all could have stars rain down on us for free, but people who run these sites need to know what their cash flow is going to be, and cash flow is easier to predict with set subscriptions than it is with quarterly fund-raisers.

Personally, I liked the old system, too, but I'm happy to have DU posting available whether I have a star or not. I've never felt 2nd-class when i couldn't afford a star here, and I doubt I'll feel 2nd-class under the new system either.

Will my Sunday LOL Cats still be accessible in The Lounge? If so, life is good.

[Fumesucker]

48. So that excuses jokes about those who are still temporarily embarrassed millionaires...

Got it..

[WolverineDG]

50. If there are jokes, then alert on them nt

[Patiod]

51. Temporarily embarrassed millionaires? WTF is the matter with you?

I moved in with my sick, immobile, 88-yo dad two years ago and lost my job because of the demands of taking care of him.

My unemployment has run out, and I (barely) support myself freelancing. I bite my lip when clients say "ha, ha, we're kind of a slow pay" as they laugh insincerely. And I take the work.

I'm not young, have no health insurance, and am unlikely to be able to afford any until I no longer have to take care of my father and can again work a 40+ hour week in an office somewhere (if anyone will hire a person over 50). I am hardly a "temporarily embarrassed millionaire".

I might be flat broke for now and the foreseeable future, but I'm sure as hell not sitting around whining because I might have to look at some ads on a website.

"Got it?"

[Fumesucker]

59. I don't care about the star, someone gave me one the other day..

My OP was about the attitudes displayed here on a nominally "liberal" forum toward those who don't have the wherewithal.

As I said in the OP, I spent about a quarter of all the money I have on bumph last night, maybe that will tell you where I am financially.

“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” -John Steinbeck

[JohnnyLib2]

41. Sign of the times, Fumesucker......

Maybe it's a good/bad thing, the awareness and willingness to speak up about having/having not.

Here, too.

[Hotler]

52. Why don't you go get a fucking job.

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:sarcasm:

[MineralMan]

54. No doubt someone will donate for you and you will have a full

year of access. You have a star now. I'm sure someone will see to it that you continue to have one. DUers are very generous people. I have been flat broke more than once in my life. When I'm not, I do all I can to help those who are. I'm sure you'll continue to have that star after your name.

[Fumesucker]

91. For about the twentieth time, I don't care about the star..

My OP was about the *attitudes* being displayed here on a nominally "liberal" website towards those who are struggling to survive.

Mocking and making jokes about the less fortunate is not a liberal value.

[Zorro]

55. How much do you pay for internet access?

Just curious.

[Lars39]

74. The question should be, "what kind of internet access are you on?"

There are some here who are still on dial-up because that is all they can afford.

[intheflow]

100. Not to mention people who access DU at the public library.

Or on break at work.

[Fumesucker]

75. I barter my services for use of a neighbor's wifi..

I'm quite handy with anything a home might need, plumbing, electrical, sheetrock, painting..

Thanks for your concern about my financial situation.

[Bonhomme Richard]

57. For Gods sake it's still free. You need to get a grip.

Second class citizen crap....I don't drive a Mercedes and I don't feel like a second class citizen in my Honda.
by the way, I don't donate $42.00/year, at least I don't think I do.
Now I have to decide whether or not the benefits are worth paying more...my decision to make. It's as simple as that.

[Le Taz Hot]

66. I just logged in this morning

and found Skinner's announcement. I was always grateful for those kind DUers who donated for me and I could show a star. I can't see a lot of people being able to donate $3.50 per month for other DUers, not to mention themselves. It's the monthy encumbrance that is the problem.

Though the reasons can be justified in terms of strict capitalism -- we can so we will -- it sets apart those of us unable to donate from those who can. Some DUers are bad enough now with the "b-b-b-but you don't have a star!!11!!!! claims, I can't imagine what it's going to be like when the new rules are in place.

Finally, like you, I have to wonder about the timing. The Administrators have always been unaplogetically partisan and that's their right since this IS their site. However, with the increasing unpupolarity of the Obama Administration and Democrats in general, I would say the vast majority on this site are now critics of both which is not what the Aministrators had in mind. This is pure conjecture, of course, but I can't help but wonder about the timing of this action.

[Nye Bevan]

67. Posts claiming that "capitalism is evil and needs to be ended"

are going to become much more unintentionally ironic. :D

[Atman]

71. I doubt it's as obvious as you think.

I've been absolutely dead broke. Lost my house, lived a cash existence, driving an old Ford Escort with no heat. No credit, no nothing, doing whatever I could to get work while my wife finished school, which she paid for by working as a TA...she was in school virtually all day just so she could get her degree paid for without loans, because no one would loan us a nickel. Yet, I'd bet I am one of the ones you'd consider an un-empathetic "have" because I have spoken out about Skinner's new plan. I know you and I are basically on the same side of this issue...the site will still be free, so if you're not paying now, NOTHING will change, except for that you might actually get access to MORE of the site.

I just don't understand what the argument is about. Ads can be blocked for FREE. If you're dead broke to where you can't afford $5 by the end of the year in order to go next year without stupid ads, WTF are you doing with internet access in the first place? Priorities.

I've donated to DU for as long as I can remember. I've helped support so many of the people who only cough up $5 just to avoid ads. I've bought stars anonymously for several DUers, some still enjoying them right now. And I'm supposed to feel guilty for this? Nope. I contribute because I enjoy the community. If one can't afford to contribute, they can deal with ads. No one is forcing anyone to be here,

[Fumesucker]

77. My post was not about the star or the fees..

It was about the dismissive and even joking attitudes displayed by some towards those who have much less.

[DainBramaged]

82. A few in the thread missed the point completely, and think being a bully changes their swing and

a miss

[Atman]

85. I understand that. It wasn't a reply about you,

Just a response to what you were saying. However, I think the derision goes both ways. I'v e received some pretty vitriolic, hateful responses in some of the other threads because I dared mention that I could afford the $42. I didn't dance and sing and say "Nanny nanny boo boo!" I just commented on the fee structure and got flamed for rubbing my good fortune in people's faces, Point being, posters on BOTH sides are being ridiculous,

[Fumesucker]

86. Perspective is a funny thing..

What you see as a flat statement of fact is perceived by some as gloating.

Not saying I do because I don't but I can see how it might rub someone the wrong way. Which of course is no excuse for personal attacks.

Money is an *extremely* touchy subject now for a lot of people.

:hi:

[intheflow]

101. Not everyone has home internet access.

People can get free internet access at the library if they have a laptop from better times. The Denver Public Library wifi is available 24-hours a day for free from any branch parking lot.

[trueblue2007]

78. money is tight ALL OVER. hubby and i don't go to movies

or out to dinner or even get netflix.

MY MONTHLY FUN THING WILL BE TO DONATE TO DU.

[Fumesucker]

83. My OP wasn't about stars..

It was about the attitudes displayed by some here on a nominally "liberal" website toward those who are still temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” (Steinbeck)

[jeff47]

88. The fact that you've had to post this a million times in this thread is probably...

...an indication that you didn't phrase your OP as well as you thought.

[Fumesucker]

92. I see it more as an indication that some people don't want to get the point..

It's rather like when we used to have to preface any criticism of Bush by saying "I support the troops, but"..

[jeff47]

103. Well, you have two options

Continue to insist everyone else is the problem and not get your point across, or

Try to figure out a better way of phrasing your point.

[redqueen]

96. +1

[Rex]

90. Nonsense, I really don't believe this 2nd class citizen stuff.

I think all the fighting is about wasting time and resources.

[Taverner]

93. I think a lot of us need to look at this from another's point of view...

For me, $42 is not hard to cough up. But I am one person, and there are many here who can't afford it.

I would be all into setting up a kind of "Star Fund" by which those of us who could, could donate $84 or so, so that those who can't afford the stars can still have them.

But that would be a stop-gap solution.

[WI_DEM]

94. there have always been so called 'limousine liberals' who profess to care about their fellow man

[redqueen]

95. I've been flat busted broke more often than not.

I just don't think having to see ads on a website is that big of a deal, that's all.

[DonCoquixote]

102. nods

Sorry to say, ever since Clinton, it has been ok to demonize the sort of people this party used to care about.