I'm sure the DU admins have done a cost/benefit analysis of small donors $$

[loudsue]

It's the same type of cost/benefit analysis the rest of the economy in the USA has done. If you can't pay, you can't play -- at least not BY THE SAME RULES as your wealthier counterparts.

I guess there aren't that many $10, $15 and $20 donations among us on DU, because those who have been contributing the smaller amounts will probably not be contributing anything now that the minimum price for a star will be $42. I'm sure the rise in price will make up for all the smaller donations. I've bought a star for a fellow DUer a time or two, but at $42 a pop, I sure won't be able to do that again.

After all, it's all about the numbers. But once again, the numbers will leave me behind. It may not be anything personal on the part of DU, but it sure feels personal to me.

[Octafish]

1. With you, loudsue.

Pay to play isn't my game. Can't afford it, currently or in the foreseeable future.

If I was rich? I'd give and support those who contribute.

One thing's for sure: Rich or poor, I still wouldn't be a Republican.

PS: K&R and it stayed at "zero."

[RC]

7. Hopefuly the Admin can see who rec'd and unrec'd and maybe kick out those who

have high unrec'd for any and all OP, without posting why, regardless of content.

[loudsue]

11. LOL! I wouldn't be a republican, either, Octafish!

Not while I still have 2 brain cells to rub together!

[Capitalocracy]

2. If I were to make a suggestion on this, it would be reduced price for giving stars

Even if it was, say, $10 for 6 months. Then those star recipients might actually (assuming they can afford to but have been holding out) decide to pony up when their stars run out... they'll be like hey, my star is gone... and some of them may decide to donate.

[loudsue]

14. That would be nice, Capitalocracy, but incentives to lure the poorest

among us is probably not a priority.

[Capitalocracy]

37. No, I don't mean luring the poorest among us

I mean those people who can afford to donate but don't, a donated star is like an ad or a reminder or an incentive for them to donate. Most people need a nudge before they'll reach for their wallets... which is why I wonder how well this is going to work without the fund drives.

[SidDithers]

3. I'm not sure how your ability to post and read at DU3 will be compromised...

by not being a donor.

Perhaps you can clarify how you won't be able to read and post at DU3 if you're not a donor?

Sid

[loudsue]

17. I would be able to clarify anything I said. But I didn't say anything like what you posted.

You may want to re-read my post.

[SidDithers]

22. Sorry. I guess I read the "if you can't pay, you can't play" part ...

as saying that your ability to "play" at DU3 will be limited by your ability to "pay"

Sid

[EFerrari]

24. "by the same rules". nt

[lbrtbell]

25. You're locked out of the donors-only groups

We're also exposed to flash-based ads that really slow you down if you're on dial-up.

That definitely affects how we can post. :(

[SidDithers]

28. Groups will be open to all DU'ers on DU3...nt

Sid

[loudsue]

32. I've enjoyed the donors-only groups for many years. And bought stars for those who couldn't

join one of the groups I like.

[Codeine]

34. No. Groups will now be open to non-donors.

Skinner has stated his intent to raise the popularity and participation level of groups with DU3, and he's starting by making them open to all members.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

50. You broke the first rule of donors-only groups ...

"Never talk about donors-only groups".

Now the hoi-polloi will know of their existence!

Woe is us.

:hi:

[Desertrose]

4. Same here.....

:hi::hug::loveya: Loudsue. How ya doin??

[loudsue]

9. Well hello Desertrose!!!

Doin' fine! Getting all those Senior discounts while they last, before the rest of the world decides to raise prices on everyone!! I'm more & more convinced that everyone is raising prices because they see the whole globe is going broke, and everyone wants to get theirs while there is still someone to milk.

:hi: :hug: So good to see you!

[hlthe2b]

5. Yes... loudsue

I wonder if the changes to the community itself have been considered. I understand and respect Skinner's attempts to change for what he believes the "better." Yet, I can't help but find it dismaying that some of the same DUers who have lauded OccupyWallStreet movements across the country and a call for more fairness, a more equitable society are now berating those who express concern with inadvertently converting DU to a "have" and "have not" community. Those who were able to make small contributions still had pride in feeling they were supporting DU--no more. Those who were more flush had the ability to help out those who were struggling, no more.

Again, I respect what Skinner is trying to do and feel certain he will take those concerns to heart, in terms of trying to find some additional solutions. For those who would deride the concern for the disenfranchised members, I say, grow a damned heart and find some compassion. The hypocrisy is astounding.

[aquart]

16. They discount the rallying unity of the fund drives.

That is going to be a terrible error.

[loudsue]

26. It may be an error in that it disenfranchises those of us who felt like we were part of a community

only to be put in our proper economic place. But it will probably not be an economic error on the part of the admins, as more an more of the "elite" democrats will find a home here, and us more liberal riff raff will be downsized. It's just more of a shift to the right that has overtaken the entire world. There's really no use in trying to fight it anymore. Money rules. Everything. Values, not so much.

[hlthe2b]

31. Exactly... I just posted on that issue... What a shame...

Ironically, the fund drives had a cohesive effect on the DU community...

Even those who could donate only $5 felt some pride in doing so--pride in helping make DU advance. The stars are not the issue, but driving a wedge between those who can and can not afford to donate at a level deemed "sufficient" is.

And, yes, while the fund drives might have been annoying for some, and time consuming for admins, it did have a positive effect on the DU community--something I hope will be considered before a final plan is implemented. Do away with the stars or keep them. Just don't demoralize those struggling economically. THAT, is the very antithesis of progressive stances.

[mactime]

6. There shouldn't be a change

in your ability to post and read.

[Atman]

8. And there wont be,

Pretty simple.

[boston bean]

12. Yes there will be. There will be a difference.... please re-read Skinner's original post. nt

[Atman]

45. Uhm...I did read Skinner's post last night...so I misspoke...you'll get MORE access, not less.

The poster said there shouldn't be any changes. I read that as to mean that there shouldn't be any more restrictions, which there won't be. In fact, according to Skinner, non-paying members would appear to get MORE access than they're getting under the current system. So I did misspeak, but not in the way you're implying.

[mactime]

47. you are correct

What I attempted to say was: even in the new version of DU you will still be able to post and read at the same level as now, without any additional payment

[boston bean]

10. They make more $$ if you have to see the ads. It is a financial calculation.

lower donors aren't carrying their weight and DU can make more if people have to look at the ads.

Their measley contributions and the small donation needed to buy another a star was less $$ for DU. They can make more off the ads.

Then add on top of that, they want to make it even more expensive for people with less money to be able to avoid them, or enjoy DU for the same price as a wealthier donor who can afford $42/year upfront.

All you people who can't afford it, can go on a payment plan of $5/month, but your cost for the same access will be $60/year.

It's regressive, and not in any way progressive.

It's capitalistic. It's the American way!!! It's pathetic.

[SidDithers]

13. You can avoid ads for free with Firefox and AdblockPlus...

as has been posted at DU about a million times.

Sid

[boston bean]

15. There are still other features and bells and whistles that people who cannot afford a star

will not be able to use.

And to top it off, they have made it more difficult for people to buy STARS for others, by making it $60/year.

Can you not see that this is a huge change?

[SidDithers]

19. I can see that it won't change at all the ability to read and post at DU...nt

Sid

[boston bean]

27. yes, while the better off pay less and the one's who can't afford a lump sum pay more.

And no, you do not know for what access will be limited.

However, I do know for sure this will price some people out, and will make others unable to buy them a "subscription" so they can experience the full DU like a more wealthy or a better off DUer could.

[JanMichael]

30. Weird part about these posts

is how that meme "it's just a little less, suck it up" has made it's way into the discourse of this board.

[jeff47]

42. Actually, it's a little more

Right now, we freeloaders can't use groups. In DU3, we can.

So far, no "special features" have been announced, so freaking out about some future 'required' special feature is very premature.

[Madrone]

35. +Infinity

n/t

[dixiegrrrrl]

58. I will not be able to afford to buy stars for others, anymore.

And I will never allow a monthly fee automatically taken out of my checking account, esp. by PayPal, who went on my shit list the minute they joined the 1% by refusing service to Wikileaks ( not to mention I dislike giving them my personal information)
(why is DU supporting PayPal, anyhow???)

So it will be an annual check to DU next year.
Or maybe just Ad Block.
No more feeding the fund drives by donating stars.
Sorry, guys.

[frazzled]

39. Yes, it is truly the American way: pay to play

You can pay for the privilege of not having to wait in line to get through TSA at the airport. Hey, the rest of you--you can stand like pathetic refugees in line for 45 minutes and still make your plane. What are you complaining about?

You can pay thousands of dollars a plate for a dinner to have access to a political candidate and push your agenda. Or you can be a volunteer schlub and get no hearing at all. You still get to vote!

You can buy platinum insurance and get everything from breast implants to open heart surgery, no questions asked. Or you can wait in line, suffering, for twelve hours at the emergency room before someone determines you had a stroke. Hey, a doctor will eventually see you!

I think it's laughable that this discussion board, which rails against corporate greed and the capitalistic way morning, noon, and night is suddenly "wha, me worry" about instituting a full-fledged two-tiered class system (yes, it's always been that way here, but much less dramatically so.) We all questioned why BofA needed to charge people $5 a month for using their debit cards when they were already making handsome profits. But nobody has asked why there should suddenly be an approximate eightfold hike in access to this board during a time of economic difficulty and high unemployment. We don't even stop to ask what the money is needed for. There are 177,366 user registrations on this board. If 10% of those registered users pay the minimum $42 yearly fee, that is $750,000--three-quarters of a million dollars. And we're not even talking advertising revenues. Is that a reasonable amount of money to run this web site? I don't know. Maybe someone else does. But nobody even asks.

Firedog lake does it, you say! Yes, that is what makes me want to run away immediately. You can post on sites like TPM for absolutely no cost whatsoever. Maybe that's the answer.

I've thought about what others are doing: donating a measly dollar or two now to defer the decision for a year. But that doesn't seem right to me. It's time to make a decision? Should I pay to play? Should I decamp? It's just a bad habit, anyway. It's not like I don't know what is going on in the world or the country without DU. In fact, my reason for being here has more to do with wanting to counter all the DISinformation posted here than anything else. But since that's a losing battle, and attracts so much abuse, why would I want to pay $42 for the privilege?

[loudsue]

41. Very well said, frazzled.

For those who are arguing the point on this thread that we can still post and read on DU...hell, I could do that anywhere. They're trying to act as if there is NO BENEFIT to donating the required minimum to have a star membership. There MUST BE a good benefit, because I don't belong to ANY OTHER web site, of any kind, that has that kind of a membership dues requirement.

Hell! You can get a complete higher education on some sites for FREE!!!! You can learn just about anything and everything from science to math to physics to biology to chemistry...you name it....for FREE. And here, you still have to put up with rightwingers on the board, and it will nevertheless cost you a minimum of $42 to be able to stop the fucking blinking ads, or to search archives, etc.

It was the community, and the inclusive equality. But $750,000.... a quarter of a million dollars a year PLUS advertising income, less, what at most $75,000 for servers and costs?

Greed. It's an illness. It's pandemic. The 99% 'ers are calling it for what it is.

[jeff47]

43. Bullshit, and you know it.

The required fee to post in DU3: $0.
The required fee to use groups in DU3: $0.

The only difference that has been announced so far is no ads if you pay. That's it.

If you're so sure that they'll introduce some critical "pay only" feature in the future, then why the hell are you still here supporting such evil people?

[frazzled]

46. Oh, the old bullshit response.

How terribly clever.

This sort of thing is why I don't want to pay $42 for the privilege of not having obnoxious ads flashing in my face. Why would I pay to be abused by stupid people?

[jeff47]

52. Then why are you here?

If you hate the place so much, why are you here? The Internet is big. If you hate the admins and the other people on the site, what's the point of coming here?

Stop crapping in the living room and then complaining about the house smelling like crap.

[hlthe2b]

60. The poster has every right to their opinion, which is NOT derogatory...

They want to make DU the best place possible. I find your comments towards that poster both unwarranted and disingenuous. :shrug:

[jeff47]

66. Go read that again. It is derogatory

Or did you miss the whole "stupid people" part of that post?

However, I do applaud you for coming up with words to express your dislike of this situation other than "Republican". :)

Also, I find it a little hard to believe a poster who wants what's best for DU is 1) Lying about DU3 and 2) expressing his/her hatred for the admins and other posters.

[hlthe2b]

68. Your post is contemptible... Your attitude towards others incivil. Enough said.

[hlthe2b]

55. Wow... I could not have said it better...

the paradox is incredibly hard to fathom. I saw the donation drive and just hit the button--before I'd even read about all the changes. But, in the name of "success" we are going to deny small donors any ability to take part in funding the future of DU--just as they have the past ten years?

I really really really hope Skinner will take some of these comments to heart and consider other options. The one thing about the fund drives is that it built cohesiveness--even after a particularly rancorous period. Do we really want to lose that? Do we really want the forum to be (as you stated so well) just another "pay to play" function or do we want to have it echo the values we purport to advocate and where even those less affluent can feel equal and contributing.

[MrsBrady]

18. you can still read and post without paying...

you understand that...right?

[JanMichael]

29. for many people, this is an important community in their lives...IE:

Redstone died recently...one of the first things I did was a search on his posts to see if he had been sick, if I had missed something, etc.

Many people read him for years...without the search function, finding his lasts posts on DU would not have been possible. So, no...you cannot get the "full DU experience" without a star beside your name.

[loudsue]

36. Hi JanMichael!

I know what you're saying. And those of us who have been around through all the history, and have followed other DUers for years may never know when something happens like Redstone dying.

[JanMichael]

44. sometimes I still use

the search function to read stuff Nostamji (I know that is spelled wrong) and Keph wrote :(

Remember Playahata1? We ran into one of her colleagues at a gas station in Indiana of all places...that's how we found out she (Robin) died of cancer.

[jeff47]

53. The free Google search does the same thing.

So yes, it's quite possible to get the same stuff without paying.

[hlthe2b]

57. No... it really doesn't

[jeff47]

61. Depends on your google-fu

It can be done, since Google indexes more than just the content of the posts.

[barbtries]

20. i'm in the same boat.

i'll see whether DU is unbearable without paying that much money. my donation dollars are only so much, and i don't want to keep on leaving the ACLU out in the cold, and now there's the Occupy movement with winter bearing down, and i'm supporting 2 households at the moment leaving me flat broke with christmas fast approaching.
it does feel personal to me too. i don't think i've let a fund drive go by without donating but it's always a very small amount. oh well.

[YankeyMCC]

21. For DU - a web service the new system may be

necessary - I'll leave that to Skinner and his team to decide. It would be nice to keep it more open as it is today, or easier to be a donor. Perhaps at some point they'll find a feasible way to allow the small donater's to participate equally, maybe a subsidy or something.

But your point is very apt when it comes to a society. Ability to pay should not determine you're worth as a human being when it comes to being able to live a life with dignity and reasonable amount of security in all aspects, shelter, food, health...

[itsrobert]

23. I did my own cost benefit analysis

I cannot afford $42 a year, but I can afford $21 a year

So I just donated 1 cent plus $1.00 processing fee. Good for 1 year. I will pay for the second year using the savings from the 1st year. So I will average out $21 a year for two years (not factoring in processing fee).

Year 3? Ads, here I come.

[loudsue]

33. LOL! You're going to survive just about anything with that attitude!

You're ok, itsrobert!

[DevonRex]

38. You can donate $5 now and have a star for another year. By that time who knows

who knows what the system may be. Things are fluid here. They may change their minds. Maybe some millionaire will fund the place in all or in part.

[msongs]

40. so, who on this thread turns off their TV set everytime ads come on? nt

[tkmorris]

49. I DVR everything, primarily for that purpose

On the rare occasion that I want to watch a broadcast as it happens, I pause it as it starts. 8 minutes for a half hour program and 16 for an hour. So no, I don't turn the TV off, but I don't watch the ads either.

[shanti]

69. exactly

one of the main reasons for having a dvr/tivo - no ads. i record shows and ff thru the commercials - always.

[tcaudilllg]

48. I'm looking forward to the decline of this place.

The sites which demand least will always prevail over those who demand more.

[SidDithers]

81. I'm looking forward dancing on your metaphorical tombstone...nt

Sid

[H2O Man]

51. Well said.

You said what I think & feel.

Recommended.

[loudsue]

62. Thank you, H2O Man,

It seems like it is everywhere we turn. I'm just shaking my head in disbelief.

[H2O Man]

73. I'm thinking that

maybe my time here is drawing to a close. DU remains my favorite internet site, yet I do not think that my contributions -- and I mean my OPs, not just the small financial contributions that I've made -- have become of such minor interest, that it is time to move on. Not with hard feelings ..... more in the sense of ex-Beatle George's song "All Things Must Pass."

[loudsue]

74. There are many of us who would miss you a great deal ...

even though we probably carry a lot of your words, and the music of your spirit with us. But I know what you mean about it being a time of change. We are entering another period much like the one we experienced in the 60's, and as we saw then, the doors open and close and open again before us, and we choose as we go.

Big hugs to you, my friend! :hug:

[suffragette]

77. I understand what you're saying, but

it leaves me feeling melancholy.

I'll miss our exchanges. I'll miss you.

[hlthe2b]

80. Oh, I hope not, H2O Man

You've become one of my favorite posters-- and I've seen one heck of a lot of them come and go since 2001. I'd hate to lose you. I'd hate to feel like I needed to leave as well. Surely it won't come to that.... :shrug:

[Rex]

54. FREE...DU3 will be FREE...GD will be FREE.

Come on folks...is all this foaming at the mouth necessary?

[EFerrari]

65. loudsue isn't foaming at the mouth.

Skinner put up a post and he is getting some feedback. No Skinners were harmed in the creation of this OP.

[X_Digger]

56. I can donate $11, 4 times a year.. (with handling, no sticker, thanks)

But $42 at once.. ehn, it'll require a bit more planning.

[KamaAina]

59. That's precisely the point

DU isn't supposed to be like "the rest of the economy in the USA".

What's next? Skinner foreclosing on my laptop? :sarcasm:

[Taverner]

63. When does this go into effect?

[nc4bo]

64. Hi. My name is Turnip. Ms. Turnip to DU

and I had a tiny bit of blood left in my root but it's not $42 worth.

I crossed my fingers that there was enough on my ICE debit card so I could donate and get granpappied in.

Love DU, glad it's here and wish it well!

ETA: Almost forgot to say K&R to your post loudsue!

[suffragette]

67. Nicely stated loudsue

K&R

[onestepforward]

70. I'm a small donor.

2 DUers on one small salary at my house. Beside stars for me and my husband, I've tried to donate stars to starless DUers when I can.

$84 a year for the both of us might leave us behind too. We're struggling like most folks.

Thanks for your thread. I was wondering about the number of small donors like myself who may be priced-out.

[truedelphi]

71. And many of us have learned the hard way that the $ 3.50 subscription cost is always handled

By the banks on the one day your account there borders on Zero.

My household doesn't use subscriptions paid on monthly basis ever. They cost far far far too much in terms of NSF funds!

I do wish someone would wake the Admins up about this issue.

[ellisonz]

72. Yeah this is a really bad idea...

...the fund drives are effective in increasing commitment and encourage giving for others. I can't afford $42.

[ScreamingMeemie]

75. I wouldn't have had as big a problem with the idea, if it hadn't been

presented in the manner it was. The sheep are stupid is basically the thought that went behind that post... Straightforward is always best, when dealing with price hikes.

[femrap]

76. With DU getting on the

Greedy Gravy Train....it simply convinces me that our pathetic culture has reached its acme.

It's now Democratic AboveGround.

I don't think our culture can reach much further to the depths of greed and cruelty...but I could be wrong.

Thank you OWS...I can get my hope from you.

DU has gone to the other side.

p.s. Overpopulation is a problem. Stop breeding, you'll save $$. Or maybe everyone will save $$. The Earth will certainly benefit.

[akbacchus_BC]

78. This new contribution deal sucks, a lot of great DUers may not be

able to pony up the $42.00, times are hard for all of us. Frankly, the admins need to revisit this. I feel the community spirit has gone and if we have to pay for a subscription, I hope they do not delete our messages, now that we are paying!

Actually, when I saw Skinner's message, I thought oh oh, he is selling the website, little did I know that he was upping the ante on Democrats who could ill afford his new subscription. Just like a used car salesman, he hid the surprising news in his message.

[suninvited]

79. When I had a better paying job

I was a monthly donor. Nothing big, just $10 a month. I also bought many stars for other people and made extra donations during the drives. I had to drop the monthly donation a while back after I moved to a different state and found a much, MUCH lower paying job than I had previously had. I had to cut back my non essential expenses and that was one that had to go.

I have not had a star since February and I have gotten used to the ads. I only posted rarely in one of the groups, and really I don't think the main group I read even exists anymore. You really get used to the ads quickly. The biggest thing I have noticed is that when I click to view a reply to something I post it wont let me do that, it says 'only donors can use that function' or something along those lines. So, I just have to go back to the post and find the answer manually, lol.

I think the changes in DU3 will actually be more beneficial to those who cannot afford or just don't want to donate at all.