Occupy - how does it Evolve...?

[FirstLight]

I am just batting around ideas here, and i realize my voice is just one of many and i am sure those who have actually participated in the movement and GA , etc have much better grasp of the situation than me...

That said, I am afraid that the camps and the revolving door of police dumping and occupiers rebuilding may end up becoming the news story that they all just begin to accept and ignore. I can't believe i am saying this, because the standoffs are far from old news, and especially with the way the MSM has (not) been covering this 24/7, so how could people be bored or 'over' it already?

It's got to be the meme and spin that the MSM and the 1% are giving the masses. Many of them are still very much asleep, and that is what this movement sought to do, was wake people up on a different level. Personally, i am so enthralled at the way these camps have unfolded...the library, medics, food, and services offered to not just the occupiers but the homeless and other population in an area that may be so far down as to be off the radar for services...
THAT is a huge part of the story that is being missed... instead one of the memes the MSM is feeding people is:
the homeless and drug addled element are taking over the camps, making them dangerous and dirty places...
"see, the unwashed evils are always going to 'infect'..so you'd better not go down there and get involved! one of them may touch you!!!"

There's also the factor of the loss of property, and how many of us can continue to send money and stuff to occupiers when it all gets trashed in days? that sucks.

there's also the weather and seasons to consider...i worry constantly about the ability for occupiers to stay warm and healthy, especially when losing sleep due to these ridiculous run-ins with police

and let's NOT forget the incredible waste of money these cities are engaging in to keep making these silly shows of force. Last night in Oakland was the most ridiculous anti-climatic waste of dollars... 12 different Agencies were there at approx $1000 a head... stupid waste of the money we need to keep our social programs running, to keep regular city jobs, to keep schools open... you get the picture

So...WHAT IS the next LOGICAL STEP??
How do we keep this movement VISIBLE, and POWERFUL?

How do we get to a place where we have some actual LEVERAGE?

My mom is so funny...she thinks all the people down there on the streets are silly kids... i am sure... but she actually said to me today "they should just flood the white house with letters" that a way to protest... she honestly doesn't understand that we have reached the point where there can be no more playing by THEIR rules.

But how do WE ACTUALLY CHANGE THE RULES?
camping out and being visible and a growing community and unity movement is awesome and important...but how do we redress our grievances? how do we actually GET these changes made? is it time to step up THAT part of the agenda?

someone in Oakland GA said last night that they were invoking Article 5 of the Constitution and asking for a Constitutional Convention.
I agree - We have to think BIG like this... (of course, i am a dork and totally thought they were calling for a convention like the parties do, with delegates and such)...but that may be an idea to run with too...

comments? ideas? flame?

[TheWraith]

1. The only way to change the rules is to change the laws.

And no, something like a constitutional convention is both a bad idea and completely impractical--not more than a handful of people would ever support it.

The end result is, the way to change things is by winning elections. Some people don't like that, because it's slow, hard, and sometimes involves taking what you can get, like a healthcare bill that only bans preexisting conditions and rescission, rather than completely eliminating profit in the healthcare system. But that's the nature of politics: "the slow cutting of hard boards." And it's the only way things really change.

[lunatica]

2. Many people think the government is too corrupt to be part of it anymore.

Who wants to play by the 1% rules? That's what it is.

[TheWraith]

16. The American Anti-Slavery Society thought the same thing.

Popular movement of 250,000 people back in the mid-1800s, equivalent to a group having 6.5 million active members today. They thought politics was too corrupt, so they decided to be a non-political organization. Because of that, they failed completely in their mission and got consigned to the scrap heap of history. The work of abolition was accomplished by the handful of people who broke away because they believed in politics.

The old saw of "politics is too corrupt" is little more than either a thin veil for cynicism, or an excuse not to do the hard and nasty parts of working for change.

[FirstLight]

4. ya, i still think we are beyond that appproach

occupy is happening because we cannot play these games anymore, can't afford to wait. we need a serious change in the way things are run, NOW...

occupy is people spilling into the streets to make noise, and get this stuff fixed!

maybe revolution isn't such a bad word after all...

[Cid_B]

20. So what?

You aren't willing to wait so instead you are going to go hang out in the park?

You're gonna do stuff! Like hang out in the park?

People will really listen to you! Because you made a particularly witty sign?

Real change comes through the legitimate and sustained use of the political process. It sucks, its hard and that's why most people don't do it. OWS won't accomplish diddly shit until that is realized.

[lunatica]

28. So in your view the Arab Spring has accomplished nothing

Revolution happens, and it happens in spite of politics. And it happens when people stop playing by the rules of the monied elite.

[Cid_B]

31. Got it.. revolution.. right...

The Arab spring movements overthrew their governments and put their own people in place. Is that what you think is going to happen?

Are you under some sort of belief that the people currently spread out in protests around the country (ranging from 2 to a few thousand) are going to overthrow the current governmental system that is in place and replace it with something else?

I would love to hear the logical, step by step plan for that one.

Step 1 - Make some signs and live on public property

Step 2 - umm...

Step 3 - PROFIT!

Also, public support doesn't even reach 50% anymore and continues to drop. They are moving quickly to background noise on the news cycle.

No way, no how, nuh uh...

[RKP5637]

3. I've been wondering that too ... somehow it needs to change the system, until

millions start protesting it might not happen. Writing letters to congressmen and the white house, LOL, if that worked we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. IMO not enough people have suffered the pain of all of this yet. Many are a few paychecks away from being in really bad shape, but our conditioning IMO in this society does not allow the psyche to process that ... to me at least.

I don't have the answer, but I'm glad you posted this since I've been wondering the same. One thing that is happening, I think it's raising the general awareness of how F'ed up this country is for many people, and the dismal future many might well face. That, IMO, is a major step in itself.

[FirstLight]

6. very true

it may have to get worse before it gets better for many...

i think about those cops and wonder if they will face contract negotiations anytime soon, and if they will be thinking of the Occupiers they stood toe to toe with who opened their arms and said..."you are really one of us too"

[FirstLight]

5. ...

in response to Rabblevox's thread about what Occupy is NOT, i said
"I think being out there in the streets is a vital part of the movement, the 'we aren't going away' message is VERY much an integral part of the movement. and i hope to someday get out there too and shake hands with local Occupiers... the fact that these groups of people have managed to share diverse thoughts and run their own communities, with medical, technological, food, and so many pother factions and committees working in harmony is AWESOME and a HUGE example for so many of us on how to set aside differences and seek to focus on what UNIFIES US. "

i still think we HAVE to stay visible and in your face...just worried about the communities themselves, the long term wear and tear on our collective nerves and mental health ... how do we make the BIG changes when we are still dealing with SURVIVAL strategies?

edit to add link for Rabblevox's thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2307382

[JoePhilly]

7. You get involved , and vote. The majority of Americans do not vote ...

So if OWS is really the 99%, or even the 60%, then they could VOTE in people who reflect their views. Not over night, but they could do it over a few election cycles.

The question is "will they?"

If they protest, but don't vote, nothing is going to change.

And no, a Constitutional Convention is not happening.

[RKP5637]

8. you make a good point, it needs to coalesce into actionable items that could

seriously affect the system by massive voting for people that reflect OWS views. Also, somehow, MSM needs to be skirted so issues do not get warped into TPTB agenda. I would like to see most of these people voted out of office.

One other concern is corruption in gov. I think many on the take do not see it that way, they see it business as usual. Somehow that needs to change too.

This country is too powerful for the old pitchforks and torches to work, but coalescing into actionable items that could seriously affect the system by massive voting for people that reflect OWS views. That, could be extremely powerful IMO.

[FirstLight]

9. yes..

the corruption on a mass scale is really a huge behemoth to be up against too. How can we kill the beast that consumes the political, media and corporate agendas? especially when most of us don;t know how to do it any other way?

i was thinking the other day about occupiers creating a new monetary system based on bartering etc...then we could experiment with a new wayt of functioning OUTSIDE their rules...in order to realize how to make NEW rules...

[RKP5637]

14. Yeah, that's crossed my mind too. I guess if you look at the root cause of

much of this mess it's money. If people somehow start to go around the established money system that's going to have a serious impact as it grows.

There is an Internet based alternative money system, I just can't think of the name right now. The 1% really only knows money, that's what drives them. If their system is devalued by others going around it that will impact them if enough people were to really do it.

What's really important is the awareness OWS is creating. I really find it hard to believe the majority of Americans think this system is just perfect. Some may want to protest, but don't want to take to the streets, some alternative for them to use to protest would be interesting.

[MedleyMisty]

12. The voting machines are owned

Elections are manipulated. And if we did somehow beat their machines, they'd just have the Supreme Court invalidate it. Already did it once. This time maybe they'd install a banker, like in Greece and Italy.

[RKP5637]

15. It's difficult when the whole system is corrupt, or most of it ... if one were

trying to change one part of it, it would be a lot easier. Part of me tells me that working within the system is best, but then the reality of it all tells me that might get us nowhere because of all of the manipulation. One thing is OWS brings a focus as to how F'ed up the system is. If enough people keep hearing this eventually they will one day realize they are part of the 99%.

[TheWraith]

17. I call bullshit on that.

If you attribute some kind of superpowers to your opposition, you will always find a reason not to try. History is full of examples of steady, hard work changing everything for the better. It may not be pretty, and it may not be quick, but it works.

[JanMichael]

19. There's way too much BS related to those machines to blow them off.

The ownerships are crooked fascists, the codes hidden, the machines easily manipulated (see Leon County FL), and plenty of other clever ways to screw up returns.

They are not "superpowers" which is attributing a negative dismissive label to an opinion or statement all on your own...

[rhett o rick]

21. You miss the point by a zillion miles. Yeah, right just go vote like good little "citizens".

Choose between Corporatist (R) and Corporatist (D).

Dont you pay any attention to the news? They are restricting who can vote. They dont put voting machines in poor districts, they cage and many different other ways to CONTROL THE VOTE. They control the voting machines. Dont you remember 2000 and 2004? Voting didnt help shit. But yes you go ahead and vote and be sure to send an email once in a while. Then your obligation is over, you've done all you can.

Occupy is trying to tell people like you that the system is fucked. But you go ahead and pretend the system works like the 1% wants you too.

[JoePhilly]

22. No you miss the point .... the problem that you whine about exists specifically because ....

so many do not vote.

The GOP's efforts to restrict the vote is NOTHING compared to how many Americans could EASILY vote but do not do so.

While I will agree that the GOP does try to manipulate the vote, even steal elections, the number of votes they get that way is NOTHING when compared to the number of people who sit on their asses and do not vote at all.

And so ... if you think OWS is going to "fix this", please, please, PLEASE, tell us HOW they will do so OUTSIDE the ballot box?

I'm waiting in breathless anticipation.

[RKP5637]

25. Why are Americans so apathetic when it comes to voting. It's always amazed me

that people sometimes don't realize the consequences of their vote ... I'm not saying this in relation to this thread, just wondering what you think. I think it's because for the most part the country has had it so good since WWII. I think for years people have assumed the good parts of the system will just go on and on. I've been really stunned sometimes when I learn that people I know never bothered to vote. They have opinions, but then don't bother to vote.

[JoePhilly]

35. I agree with you ... too many have become complacent ...

Most Americans are not crazy. Most are not ideologically driven. And most are busy.

The GOP uses insane rhetoric to rile up their voters to generate the energy needed to VOTE.

Most Americans today, don't have the time or the energy.

The GOP is COUNTING on this. If the GOP has its way, by the time the average American figures out what the GOP intends to do, it will be far too late to stop it.

This is also why there are the voices who claim "the GOP and the Dems are the same" ... its nonsense, but if that message gets some moderate Dems to stay home, the GOP crazies increase their own turn out and reduce that of the other side.

[rhett o rick]

27. Let me get this straight. If more people voted we wouldnt have Pres Obama as president?

Pres Obama that gets advice on saving American jobs from Jeff Immelt?

How are you going to get more people to participate in a system that is corrupt to the core?

Your arguments sound similar to my republicon friend. What is Occupy's answer?

Occupy doesnt claim to have an answer. But I think some are thinking that the end is coming and they arent going out like "good little citizens".

I am hoping we can take some advice from David Korten, "Agenda for a New Economy".

[JoePhilly]

37. Clearly you don't want President Obama ... OBVIOUS ... but again you miss the point ...

At no point did I say that "If more people voted we wouldn't have Pres Obama as president" ... that is YOU projecting your own desires. I'm going to guess you would prefer Dennis, or maybe Bernie Sanders, or maybe Nadar.

And I'd suggest that one of them could win, if YOU go get them the votes. Did you?

The fact that most Americans don't vote means that we do not know what the American people really want.

And then you said this nonsense ... "How are you going to get more people to participate in a system that is corrupt to the core?"

That's NOT why people don't vote. American's don't vote because they've become complacent. They did not stop voting because of the "evil system" ... that is YOU projecting again. That is why YOU don't want to vote. Most of those who don't vote have become complacent.

You are correct that Occupy does not have an answer, at least not yet. But I stand by my original suggestion ... they need to start finding candidates they want ... and start VOTING for them. If any group was able to mobilize lots of new voters, they would be a serious force.

And if OWS is truly the 99% (which I hope they are), and they start to vote heavily, then no amount of election theft would be able to stop them.

[RKP5637]

38. You make a good point... IMO the best way to seriously change the system

is by beating them at their own game. OWS has the potential IMO to be a massive voting block and if large enough could literally overrun the corruption. IMO our gov. works, but the problem is with those that have been voted into office, and allowed into office by a complacent populace. OWS IMO is showing some of the gumption that is needed to seriously change this country, now OWS needs to gain traction as to how to seriously effect change and bring a major portion of the population along with them.

[JoePhilly]

45. Agree ... I think we are in the same space .... we need every one voting ...

I think most Americans agree with most of the issues that get be tied to OWS. Perhaps not 100% agreement with every issue, but an overall agreement none the less.

And so if we can the more people we get voting for candidates that support "most" of those issues, we move in the correct direction. The movement will not be uniform. Different states are at different starting points ... but from my perspective, if you can't buy a politician with money, then you need to move them with votes.

I think OWS might do well, with some help, to try to get 100% participation in the next election. Or at least 99%, if you follow me.

If it were to become clear that almost everyone was going to vote ... the money, I think, becomes much less relevant.

[RKP5637]

46. Yep!!! We are in the same space! n/t

[RKP5637]

24. You touched on one of the major issues, in many ways R=D, as both have morphed into

something far different from years ago. Hence, IMO, the frustration with the system is going to grow and grow. IMO it's going to coalesce into very actionable items when the appropriate catalyst comes along. I truthfully don't know what that catalyst will be. At one time I thought it was Obama, but I'm not so sure about that anymore.

If this country dips into another recession or worse, I think it's going to become uncorked. I do know this, OWS is a strong indication of how F'ed up the system is, and OWS protesters are not going away. They may be disrupted by TPTB, but IMO those feelings are not going away, and I think more will join.

[JoePhilly]

42. Obama ran as a centrist who wanted to find bipartisan, pragmatic solutions.

The GOP has decided that this is the LAST thing they want.

As for this statement ... "If this country dips into another recession or worse, I think it's going to become uncorked."

Let's think ... the prediction of a double dip has now occurred during the summer months every year since Obama took office. Here on DU, summer of 2009, 2010, and 2011 were ALL predicted to be the start of the double-dip, endless threads predicting it. When stocks dropped under 11k this summer ... OMG, it was the end of the world, double-dip is HERE .... and then oooopsss .... never mind.

The economy is not about to collapse. Sure, it is not strong enough, and it will probably continue to stagger sideways, but it is not anywhere close to dead.

OWS needs to not be hoping for economic dips or a collapse as you suggest, but instead, trying to turn the energy into votes. Votes for candidates who support the OWS issues.

Or what? DO they arm themselves and take control by force as the craziest elements of the Tea Party pretend to threaten?

[RKP5637]

43. I should have added more to that post. In another response to you earlier today I

posted along lines similar to what you just said ... a strong voting block is what OWS needs to become. IMO I think you've made some excellent points in your postings about that.

Here's what I sent earlier to you ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2307840&mesg_id=2315283

[FirstLight]

10. kick..

i should have made the title sexier... ;)

[cyberpj]

11. As a child of the 60's I love Occupy's leaderless movement that has spread around the nation, BUT

as long as reports and, yes, even violence are mostly local and do not receive national press I don't see any government response.

Occupy Wall Street was a good first step but, and this is only my own feeling, I think the movement has to evolve to Occupy D.C. and in huge numbers. Huge numbers would be very hard to move without all out war but it also increases the incidents of crime and abuse by under-cover agitators.

Failing that, I'm one of those that believes Occupy needs a central demand and the one I believe would make the most difference the fastest is PUBLIC AND EQUAL CAMPAIGN FINANCING.

[Terry in Austin]

32. In the 60's, we made the mistake that OWS is avoiding

The Movement then was basically one of supplication. We were asking/demanding/begging the government for something. By doing so, we were reaffirming its power, and certainly its relevance.

I think the brilliant innovation of Occupy Wall Street is that it recognizes where the power actually lies, and by implication, that Washington is irrelevant -- just another puppet of the plutocracy.

The nationwide occupations are at the city level, which is much more on target. Top-down government from Washington is at this point a farce and a sideshow. Republicans are unwilling to govern and Democrats are unable to.

Cities are where things will happen.

Occupying D.C., I believe, would be a step backwards if it is aimed at the national government. Occupying DC the city, though, is another matter -- it would be relevant.

[cyberpj]

33. How about Occupy Congresscritters offices? They're the ones taking the lobbying money. nt

[Terry in Austin]

13. Its visibility IS its power

The next step(s) isn't necessarily logical.

Its accomplishments are already considerable. Much of the accomplishment lies in the fact that OWS participants are "prefiguring the kind of society they want to live in." Being the change they want to see.

There's a whole lot of real governance and policy happening in those general assemblies -- no one should underestimate the value of citizens getting together to create policy. Basically, proceeding as if the official government were irrelevant. Which, increasingly, it is.

Changing the rules implies getting back into the game, and we already know that it's the 1% game, and it's rigged.

How all of this plays out? Who knows? We're here to learn.

[Warpy]

18. One way it needs to evolve is to spread to housing

Since banks are just letting housing stock rot because they think they're entitled to the full 2005 cash value and won't bother to keep it up, squatters will be doing a great service to the country by keeping that housing stock livable, discouraging copper vandals among other things. Squatters cooperatives including access to legal help should the banks object would seem to be one of the next steps.

National strikes are a little premature, people aren't hurting quite enough yet.

[FirstLight]

23. just got off the phone with a friend who still lives/works in Oakland

actually she lives farther away and commutes, but you get the idea.

she went off on the whole occupy movement and the people and the cops and the whole thing. she says most people down there are OVER it because the protestors are a nuisance and they are really screwing it up for people who DO have jobs and such, and that they are screwing it up for the businesses who are down there too.
it was quite a harsh rant to listen to, but worthwhile to hear. this is why I worry that "occupy" may be getting some negative blowback because of those who it inconveniences or who are still living 'within' the system... they just don't 'get it' and feel that the protestors are making themselves a target and being stupid for putting themselves at risk with the homeless and other dangerous elements down there in the area (mind you we are talking about oakland, not the same as many other places, but close enough) there's also a huge factor of people who are there who may not be all about the movement - but who want to party or just make trouble and look cool, bash some cops, etc...

so ya, her whole take on it was that most people are ignoring the protest now, because they brought the pain on themselves...

I would have argued with her, but some of her points were valid, and i also have to understand she is still enmeshed in the system wholeheartedly. She is one of those who thinks they can just go "get a job" because she hasn't had the shit hit her own fan yet...can't blame her for living in her bubble, in fact it's where many of the US is still living...

[AntiFascist]

26. I can tell this is going to be a long winter...

keep your eyes on the news, there are any number of triggers that will piss people off and keep them coming back to the streets. If we go to war with Iran. If the banks are bailed out yet again. If the economy suddenly tanks further because of Europe. The threat of social action and massive protest is holding the PTB hostage and they will have to plan their moves in the public's interest. Keep that in mind.

[backscatter712]

29. More disruption. I suggest general strikes and economic blockades on Black Friday... n/t

[DCBob]

30. Define the enemy.

Most people dont understand what the issue is. There needs to be a more clear target. Just saying the system is corrupt and needs to be dismantled and rebuilt is not going to work. That sounds like anarchy and chaos. Define the enemy. For the most part its the Republicans and those with big money who support them. That is what will take this to the next level.

[TBF]

34. The enemy is capitalism. nt

[DCBob]

39. and replace it with what?

[FirstLight]

36. not capitalism as much as greed...

the fact that ALL our politicians are bought and paid for by the very people they are supposed to make laws regulating?

that's a start...but the big banks, the ones who got huge golden parachutes or bonuses, the ones who keep playing the stock market like a vegas table game and then evicting people from their homes, the ones who hoard their capital and refuse to create jobs, the ones who refuse to engage is alternative energies, the ones who spill millions of gallons of toxic waste and oil into our oceans and have NO liability...geez the list is BIG!

[DCBob]

40. so lets eliminate greed.... how??

[TBF]

47. It is the capitalism that is the core problem -

it rewards greed. As long as you have a system that is focused on profits you are going to have these problems - there is no 'regulating' it - it's cheaper for the corporations to pay fines and go around obstacles ...

[loyalsister]

41. A constitutional convention would be very scary

The vocal majority would run it. By that I mean a lot of conservatives and right center people and a few liberals. We have a republican congress because people voted for them. There are people who seriously wanted to change or do away with the 14th Amendment. They would be at the table.
Don't just vote- run for office.
If OWS would channel energy and money spent on pizza, etc. into taking over state legislatures, city councils, school boards, and yes even congress, I think that we could accomplish a lot. Part of the problem is money in politics. If we rally a true majority of voters, we may be able to have real influence.

[backscatter712]

44. How about some new-tactics. Example: Flash-mob police-trolling!

Here's how it works. Get several groups of Occupiers. Make sure they can be trusted, as there may be some secretive planning involved in pulling this off.

And for the love of Jebus, DO NOT plan this on Twitter. My own personal critique of Occupy Denver is that they have no interest in strategy, and broadcast everything they do on Twitter.

Anyways. Each one of the several groups sets up a flash-mob at a different location in your city's biggest shopping district on Black Friday. One at the most prominent of the big banks. Another one at a department store that trafficks in goods made by 3rd world slave labor. Another at the local branch of the Federal Reserve. By all means, pick targets according to taste, but keep them in roughly the same area of town.

Make sure your Occupiers can blend in with the crowd.

One flash-mob creates a ruckus. The police come in force, bring out the hats and bats, there are arrests. That's OK, just make sure you're willing to spend a night in jail for the cause and make sure your organization has plans to bail people out.

Then another flash-mob hits a second target. The police come for that one, only they're more keyed up, more thuggish. It's all part of the plan!!!

Another flash mob, and another! By this time, the cops are running themselves ragged, they're pissed off, their roids are wearing off, and they're losing their minds. What do you think they're going to do? What they do by instinct... LOCKDOWN!!!

Imagine people trying to shop on Black Friday, the busiest shopping day of the year, with cops running around everywhere, more heavily armed than Rambo, paranoid as hell, accosting random shoppers, stop-and-frisking them, scaring the hell out of everyone!

BINGO!!! The police are now unwittingly aiding the disruption we desire to make life difficult for the 1%.

See where I'm going?