Ken Burch
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:14 AM
Original message |
So...if all the cops everywhere storm all the Occupy camps...then what? |
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I hope there's a backup plan...because if OWS dies, hope pretty much dies.
We're fucked if it gets reduced to "it's enough that you get to vote" again, which will be all that remains if there isn't a backup plan. 2008 proved that, by itself, voting can't change a damn thing. Sorry, but that's the truth and we all know it now.
How do we avoid having the resistance crushed?
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EFerrari
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:16 AM
Response to Original message |
1. Every time the cops attack, the city spends a million dollars |
Blue_In_AK
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #1 |
13. That's a really good point. |
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Edited on Tue Nov-15-11 02:46 AM by Blue_In_AK
People tend to come down on the side of the protesters whenever there's one of these skirmishes. Even up here when we occupied Wells Fargo and the mall cops over-reacted, shoppers were standing around on the tiers cheering us on. I really think the authorities are going to have to step back if they hope to retain any credibility at all.
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Ken Burch
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #13 |
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Has a crackdown happened in Anchorage yet, Blue?
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Blue_In_AK
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #18 |
21. No, it's been real peaceful so far. |
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The chief of police has spent time hanging out with the protesters, just talking about issues. He says he's not in the habit of arresting protesters and he doesn't see any reason to start now. Sullivan is keeping a low profile because next year is an election year. I think they've been negotiating to get a permanent set-up over at the Park Strip so that Town Square can be free for other uses. They wanted to charge a permit fee, but said maybe it could be worked off in community service -- which might not be a bad idea, since it would provide opportunities to interact and educate people.
When I've been down there on Saturdays, people have generally been supportive. It hasn't been a large group since it's gotten colder, but morale is good.
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EFerrari
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #13 |
19. They have to switch to media manipulation because they're going |
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to bankrupt themselves with all these deployments. Nobody has the cash for them. Remember, austerity?
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Fire Walk With Me
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:19 AM
Response to Original message |
2. Imagine five times the number of current #Occupiers, marching in General Strikes... |
Downwinder
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:20 AM
Response to Original message |
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You smash a boil and it just spreads out.
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Ken Burch
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #3 |
4. Hopefully, that's what happens. |
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We can't afford to let ourselves be lowered into another version of the Seventies(or at least the media version of the Seventies).
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napoleon_in_rags
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #3 |
12. I don't think a skin infection is a good metaphor for OWS. |
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And this is from somebody who just had one... No. Bad.
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Downwinder
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #12 |
15. I stole the expression from a City Council meeting in Phoenix. |
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Edited on Tue Nov-15-11 02:54 AM by Downwinder
At that time they were chasing the homeless out and building the baseball stadium. The homeless ended up all over the valley.
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napoleon_in_rags
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #15 |
23. Well, the gist of what you are saying is true. |
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Tonight very well may be the night when the movement starts to spread out. I'm with you on that truth! :)
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holdencaufield
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #12 |
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... if every OWS protester BIT another person -- it would go viral?
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Downwinder
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #27 |
28. I don't think it requires physical contact. |
napoleon_in_rags
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Tue Nov-15-11 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #28 |
31. You're straying into the realm of the pataphysical. |
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Authorities cited health threats when clearing Zuccotti park. Are you talking about in illness, or a metaphor?
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FirstLight
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:25 AM
Response to Original message |
5. i don;t know, but i am pissed |
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i am sick and want to cry and then get mad... they are fucking with people and they don;t know what could come next.
it could get uglier, this movement will go subversive and possibly end up having to get violent to counter the feds and cops... which sucks, cuz we tried to do it peacefully
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Ken Burch
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #5 |
20. This will probably be the time Homeland Security sends in provocateurs |
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like the FBI did in Chicago.
(Ironic that this is happening the week "J.Edgar" just opened in theaters.)
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Fire Walk With Me
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:25 AM
Response to Original message |
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Edited on Tue Nov-15-11 02:26 AM by Fire Walk With Me
This is OUR country! This is OUR country! This is OUR country!
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tama
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Tue Nov-15-11 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #6 |
MisterP
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:32 AM
Response to Original message |
7. come back again and again and again: that's OWS's strength |
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just masses of present people
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holdencaufield
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:36 AM
Response to Original message |
8. If it's not about votes, what is it? |
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The Tea Party was able to turn their movement into enough votes to change the face of Congress -- despite a public disapproval rating of 50%
According to WSJ Poll, OWS only has a public disapproval rating of 40%. If OWS can't turn their protest into votes then it was a complete waste of time.
What do you expect to happen from the protests that would change anything? Revolution, insurrection, nation-wide general strike? That's not how things are done in the US. The ballot box is the only legitimate instrument of change in the US. If you can't win at the ballot box, you won't win.
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Ken Burch
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #8 |
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Change in the U.S. has more often than not been forced from below.
The triumph of the Civil Rights Movement had almost nothing to do with electoral politics: It was based solely on forcing politicians who didn't give a damn about civil rights on their own(which, if we're going to be honest with ourselves, included Lyndon Johnson AND both Kennedys at the start of that administration)to do things they would never have done on their own.
It's worthless to have OWS just turn into a "re-elect Obama" rally-especially since Obama has proven that he will always take the side of Wall Street against the people when it really matters.
Other than a tiny handful of our party's candidates, like Dennis Kucinich, Barbara Lee and Alan Grayson(and the CBC and Progressive Caucuses in the House)none have earned the support of the OWS groups.
You just want these young people to give up and be cogs in the machine. If they followed your wishes, they would vanish and be forgotten. Nothing they stand for now would ever happen.
It's only resistance and organizing from below that changes this country.
And any Democrat mayor that let the cops clear out the OWS camps has FOREVER lost the right to ask any of us for support. All of those who are doing that have permanently joined the right. None can ever enact progressive policies again. You can't be "law and order" and still have a conscience.
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holdencaufield
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #16 |
24. You're right (and wrong) |
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"...It was based solely on forcing politicians who didn't give a damn about civil rights on their own..."
How do you get a politician to give a darn about anything? You do it by making him believe that the people who VOTE for him (or against him) give a darn about it.
Abraham Lincoln didn't give a darn about the Negro (his words) -- he said so publicly many times -- he did care about preserving the Union and Federal power because the people who elected him cared about it and that eventually led to the destruction of Southern power and the ending slavery.
Politicians are workers too -- they are at the mercy of and will listen to the people who can get them fired. Be those people.
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Downwinder
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #8 |
holdencaufield
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #26 |
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...how destroying a public park grants anyone dignity?
Perhaps this is another form of dignity that I'm not familiar with?
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Downwinder
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #26 |
30. One of the Egyptian protesters told Al Jazeera they wanted |
napoleon_in_rags
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:36 AM
Response to Original message |
9. Then it takes a new form. |
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This whole thing is feed by economic injustice that isn't going to go away. Really, this whole thing has just begun, mark my words.
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nadinbrzezinski
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:37 AM
Response to Original message |
10. They arrrested a NYT reporter |
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they removed press credentials from an NBC anchor....
I suspect the media narrative will turn... call it a sneaky.
Oh and I must add... tactics will change.
But this is coordinated.
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akbacchus_BC
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:39 AM
Response to Original message |
11. Haven't you heard, most sites are being shut down. Here in Vancouver |
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the Mayor is still agreeing for the occupiers to have electricity and water but very soon, the tents will be gone as we have Mayoral elections on November 19
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Ken Burch
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #11 |
17. And every mayor who is doing that has joined the right. |
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There's no difference between shutting down the camps and supporting the 1%.
It's bullshit to put the meaningless concept of "the law" before the right to free speech and human dignity.
The law hasn't ever served anyone but the rich, and the police only protect the rich. They've all proved that tonight.
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AntiFascist
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Tue Nov-15-11 02:52 AM
Response to Original message |
14. People can still assemble without pitching tents... |
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the power of being interconnected the way that we are gives us the ability to assemble on a moments notice. If all OWS protestors (who have cars) decided to drive 5 mph under the speed limit at a particular time (through New York especially --- around Wall Street?) imagine the statement that could make.
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Kennah
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:26 AM
Response to Original message |
22. Not that I wish ill on journalists ... |
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... but a few arrested journalists might go a long way towards helping the OWS movement.
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nadinbrzezinski
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Tue Nov-15-11 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
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and an anchor from CBS lost his credentials
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jeff47
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Tue Nov-15-11 12:12 PM
Response to Original message |
33. Then they set up more camps. |
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Cops close those down, they set up more camps.
Each time the cops crush a camp, there's more media coverage. OWS looks better and gets re-energized. The status quo looks worse and their coffers are drained.
Storming OWS camps is the best thing for OWS's goals.
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backscatter712
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Tue Nov-15-11 12:13 PM
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