On OWS and dynamics, a seed of multiple heads

[nadinbrzezinski]

One of the things that I have observed over the last three weeks is the rise of a conflict. No, not with the police, or the authorities, that we know. It is far more subtle, and ironic at many levels. The New Left has no clue what to do with OWS. And the young leaders, rightfully so, (to a point) have said, what have you achieved in forty years? Obviously your methods do not work.

This is a dynamic as old as moses. The young come with all new ideas and damn the old farts know nothing (Remember don't trust anybody over thirty for a very recent example). IN fact, to a point this also happened in the 60s. OWS, I am calling it right now, will split, into supporting groups with differing tactics. In fact, locally that is already happening.

Will the state benefit? No, not really. On the ground you will have (if they succeed) two encampments to police... and one already stretched them thin.

But that is a small conflict I am already seeing. Oh and OWS has been successful with these unconventional tactics. This is also something the new left people from way in the past are scratching heads over. The new leadership, the new-new left... I will have to come with an euphemism that works better, since they are truly not left... has succeeded in three weeks beyond anybody's imagination.

Of course this is something you have to see on the ground, and behind a computer screen you will truly not get.

[villager]

1. was the unrec from someone adamant about staying behind a computer screen?

:shrug:

[SlimJimmy]

4. How have they succeded, exactly? From our viewpoint (as you say)

from behind our computer screens, they seem to have managed to get the camps dismantled and turned public opinion against Occupy with the escalation in violence, drug use, and criminal activity.

The new leadership, the new-new left... I will have to come with an euphemism that works better, since they are truly not left... has succeeded in three weeks beyond anybody's imagination.

[Vincardog]

6. Please provide a link that proves "violence Drug use and criminal activity" on the part of OWS.

THe Violence has be by the FASCISTS against OWN and by extension US.

[SlimJimmy]

12. I could cite many more, but this should do.

Mayor Sam Adams said late Sunday afternoon that "a series of increased drug overdoses... an arsonist that used the camp as camouflage and almost a 20% increase in crime surrounding the encampment" prompted the move.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/13/us/occupy-movement/index.html

"The encampment became a place where we had repeated violence and this week a murder. We had to bring the camp to an end before more people were hurt," she said.

"A woman reported she was sexually assaulted Saturday night in a tent at the encampment, Nutter said. CNN affiliate WPVI reported a suspect was arrested in the alleged assault."

"Numerous reports of thefts and assaults in the encampment have been made, and 15 emergency medical runs were made between October 6 and November 11, he said."

http://www.wbaltv.com/politics/29763571/detail.html

[Fire Walk With Me]

20. We then should not only end #Occupy, but the human race as well, then.

:sarcasm:

[SlimJimmy]

24. What does that even mean? I was asked to provide links and I did.

[snot]

26. Consider the sources. In my town, NPR repeated the gov't's claim that

the camp was a mess -- I forget the exact word, but suggesting it was trashy and/or unsanitary; but every time I'm there, the place is immaculate -- probably the cleanest spot in the city.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Yup

[SlimJimmy]

34. Not an issue. If the sources I cited are inaccurate, simply point me to a link that proves it.

As I said before, I support the occupy movement but I think it's been hijacked by a minority of those that are giving it a bad name. And as usual for news outlets, they tend to report the bad stuff, not the good.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Alas thank you for providing us the MAIN STREAM media narrative

Particularly FOX is bad at this... but you will have to actually get off that couch and go down to your local OWS.

Here is a hint... what was the conversation about before Zucoti? Yes. about the DEFICIT.

What has the conversation switched to? Inequality in all kinds of ways.

This is why they are seen as a threat to the establishment.

Here is anecdotal, but local media (Major outlets) are PISSED. Citizen Journalists are starting to make their work (spreading that propaganda you just posted) that much harder.

[SlimJimmy]

13. Please see the articles I linked in my other reply. The Facts are not in dispute.

Here's a HINT: The MSM narrative is predicated on *known* facts, and not anecdotal stories.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Yup... truly sad

I recommend you read a couple history books on MEDIA narratives.

These KNOWN FACTS, which for example my local MAJOR MEDIA OUTLETS have been pushing, are not.

It would take stepping out of the house and going down to the actual encampment. I am being dead serious on that.

[SlimJimmy]

25. Are the articles I linked to factual or not? Are they lies? Did the

Mayors and other officials lie? Are the facts in those articles in dispute? And if so, then provide links that show they are lies. Otherwise you are simply blowing hot air. I don't need to read *anything* additional to know that the facts in those articles are solid. If you disagree - prove otherwise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Actually yes, they did

in a very delicate way.

It has a LONG tradition in the US... they did creatively lie in the same way at the Mayor of Chicago did after the Haymarket Affair went down... but kept to some facts. Yes there were anarchists in that plaza and then there were some commies and socialists, (those words did have specific meanings), alas modern scholarship tells us that the bomb was NOT thrown by anarchists. Mind you later on they did...

Or the same creative way that Major Daley lied after the '68 police riot. I mean he had to keep control of the streets by cracking heads.

Those are just two examples. One is more or less well known, the other not so much any longer.

I will give you my local encampment as an example to try you connect some dots.

You see the Mayor is complaining of drug use (there is... the homeless across the street and some of the regular homeless)... has it gone up? No. And by jove I even witnessed one lighting up a crack pipe but five feet from an actual unformed officer of the law... who chiefly SAW IT and chose to ignore it.

Will the Mayor use that as an excuse to clear the camp? Of course my horse. In fact he already has

Is he lying when he says that there is drug use? Nope... is he lying when he says that the place has attracted the dirty homeless? Nope.

Here is the rub... the homeless (and drug use) have been there for literally decades.

Oh and yes they did use health and safety violations to clear it... were there some? Yup... but those were not the ones they were thinking about. In reality they were talking about giving the invisible people a face. You see, some of the homeless who have hung up around the plaza have done so for decades. They are well known to the police... There is more... you think there is no drugs or the other horrors going on at the tent city BEHIND police headquarters here in San Diego? Even some drug dealing? We call this selective enforcement. Oh and don't get me started on the selective enforcement INSIDE the plaza. If you are a lawyer, wearing a nice suit and tie.. go ahead put your suitcase down. If you are an Occupier... and you put down a plant, or a back pack for a minute, they will arrest you.

And yes, given every dang mayor is using the exact talking points and tactics, should raise all kinds of alarms for you.

For the record, I don't expect those alarms... nor do I want the encampment on 14th forced to decamp. But hey the only reason they are not getting bugged (or just the little harassment) is because the tents are not political.

Oh and I expect all camps to be decamped before thanksgiving, or as close as they can. They are a flashpoint for when the Super committee comes up with it's judgement or fails to. Oh and the local camp, was cleared, and now they occupy the grass besides the City Center and they were raided this morning. The last thing the powerful want is for these people to be there. The danger in OWS is not the drug use... nor the sex (across the street, last night in front of yes COPS)... or for that matter other shiftless elements. It is that it is leading to discussions and people are actually... oh my, leaving their homes and talking to their neighbors. That is the danger of OWS... consciousness raising is very dangerous... it is a revolutionary act.

So did they lie... in a way they did... and the media is helping to spread that narrative.

Sorry for the long answer... but at a process level it helps to understand that you are dealing with power and how it truly responds to a direct challenge. And I am not going to say it is because insert pol here is in office. This is a function of power... and party or person independent. It takes leadership to work against that dynamic. Sadly, so far, I have not seen signs that our present political class is going to do that.

[SlimJimmy]

35. We are also talking about sexual assaults and other types of criminal activity

like thefts and assaults. Are reports of those false? You seemed to indicate in your response that these things were not necessarily true, but merely convenient talking points? Do you have any information (links) that back up that general statement? That's all I really wanted.

[Leopolds Ghost]

18. They have turned public opinion against Occupy? Says who? And do you regard that as a good thing?

Your anti-Occupy argument is self-contradictory.

The only criminal activity happening in our local Occupy is direct action civil disobedience... such as ignoring the anti-camping laws... which you apparently classify as criminal.

[SlimJimmy]

23. I provided two links which outline what my original reply referred to.

To be clear, I support the concept and general goals of the occupy movement. At the same time, I think it has been mismanaged badly by letting minority elements cause havoc and give the movement a bad name. To ignore that fact is to ignore reality.

[MineralMan]

2. "seed of multiple heads?"

Hmm...sort of awkward, that metaphor, I think.

[mulsh]

3. I was hanging around Occupy Oakland the first week.

My primary feeling/thought was "the powers that be (on all sides) have much to worry about. Good thing they won't know how to deal with this." Every thing I've seen in subsequent weeks has reinforced that feeling. I'm too old to want to get roughed up by the local cops, been there, done that so I've avoided the teargas and bean bags. But even the nasty stuff the combined police forces have done emphasize how poorly the powers that be understand what's happening.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Oh they have no idea at all

this is so new... to the United States. It is, quite honestly, leaderless resistance

[malaise]

7. Wack an OW

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Locally that will definitely be the case

[FirstLight]

9. wow, somebody is unhappy

recced to zero...sheesh!

I think you are right in a lot of ways...the Old paradigm vs new paradigm is part of the whole movement. It's kind of like those who keep telling us to "write your congressman" instead of taking to the streets...

the whole reason this movement has grown and encompassed so many from all walks of life is that people are waking up to the fact that the old rules just don't apply anymore. and we need to REBUILD the system. Of course that makes many uncomfortable because the system is all we have known for so long...and if we un-do the system, then it will all fall into anarchy and chaos, right?

wrong. I give examples of these Occupy camps as the perfect form of leaderless govt. People say leaderless can't work...look at Tribal Council, look at the indigenous peoples the world over ...there is a reason the Native Americans built their community around a CIRCLE, not a tier of power... because the COMMON good was the core of their decision making. These occupy encampments have provided services to those pushed to the brink of society, those who had already fallen off the radar...they didn't WANT to turn into a social services group, but they embraced it as part of the concept behind the movement. The committees and actual organization of the camps is another marvel, libraries? legal? medical? all the things a FUNCTIONING society offers it's people, and the Occupiers provided for each other and welcomed ALL... it right out of the gate.
Watching a GA in action is a beautiful thing. It is better than the democracy we are used to, because it's not even about representation, it's about DIRECT participation.

I have said for years, democracy works on a small scale, but you get into thousands of people, and it gets sticky, because factions will begin to garner for control. that's human nature. Perhaps we are leaning towards a more direct type of self governance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Don't care for the unrecc crew

bless their hearts.

:-)

[villager]

15. Like the 1 per centers, they have no remaining credible arguments -- only their twitchy furtive

...fingers! ;-)

[Leopolds Ghost]

16. The unrecs are the silent majority of Dems who support the feds' coordinated crackdown on OWS

If you believe the statistics that DU is the largest rank-and-file liberal website and that liberal Dems support Obama 80%.

I for one am not sure but would not be surprised that there is an uninformed mass of rear-echelon Dems out there who don't support any agenda more liberal than keeping the Republicans out of office.

OWS folks on the WSJ comments page calls them the 53% -- self-satisfied upper middle class or "striving to be" upper middle class folks (i.e. people who think they are inherently smarter and more likely to succeed than their neighbors) who are so far insulated from the bad decisions of the past several years and feel threatened by any change to the status quo.

Regarding the OP: The New Left does not know what to do because it is a left-libertarian POPULIST movement (as I have been advocating for years, FINALLY)

It seems to me that the New Left was quickly taken over by an insular group of socialist parties that has (for better or worse) been thoroughly marginalized due to their vanguardist politics and propensity for undemocratic leftist groups such as that group which used to take over everyone else's anti-war protests and direct everyone into easily penned in enclosures to listen to speeches by Sri Lankan separatists. Who claims to be part of the New Left? Academics? I really don't know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Chomsky is the best exponent

and you summarized the history of it beautifully...

Some democrats are also part of it, as well as labo leaders.

:hi:

And it is rarely used OUTSIDE a university campus... which I have not stepped into (except to cover stuff) in a while. (OK when I went to do research into labor history)

[Aerows]

17. OWS is not going to end

There is a tremendous thirst for justice in this country, and OWS is calling for it. Corruption only lasts so long before good people get fed up with it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Nope it is not going away

it will become a game of whack a mole.

Some groups will even GASP do what those critical of OWS want OWS to do... RUN CANDIDATES for office.

Yes, you read that here FIRST... it is just the way it is.

On the other hand, direct civil disobedience will continue by others.

[MedleyMisty]

19. I don't know

I'm behind a computer screen and I get it pretty well.

But then I am 30, not a Baby Boomer crowing about the 60s while society crumbles around us and telling people to go home and vote and petition and ask politely "Please sir, may I have some more?" while the fascists destroy everything that is good and beautiful and true and force us into poverty and death.

Do note - that is not a slam on all Baby Boomers. Obviously there's all ages out on the streets, and I have mad respect for people who were out in the streets fighting for civil rights back then. Let's just call it - privileged well to do Baby Boomers who are scared of any actual change. My mother, a proud Baby Boomer who wanted to cut her hair like the Beatles and who is now working in third world conditions for a pittance in her 60s while capitalists want to take what little she has so they can use money that could have paid for her health care and retirement to gold plate the fifteen toilets on their tenth yacht, would like for you to get out of the way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Oh this is just a dymamic that happens

it is like moses old or 'thing. The old guard will (is) being pushed away in interesting ways.

The end result is that some OWSers will go off, in splinter groups and GASP do what some of those critical here want them to do... RUN FOR OFFICE... and in a few cases, good luck... they have been trying that for decades.

[snot]

27. (What is the New Left?)

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. The 1960s was led by a new intellectual class

that was called in the US the new Left... Chomsky is it's best exponent still alive.

They rejected the help of the old left, the generation that fought the battles of the 1930s. And the dynamic we are seeing is very similar (at least in San Diego)

One of our democrats is leading the effort to break away from Civic Center.It's in support, but partly it is because the "kids" don't listen.

I have heard of this in news coverage in other places, and it actually makes some sense.

We old fats, (as a reporter I am not going to say who is right or wrong) learn to compromise to get along. And so it goes.

[snot]

31. That helps.

Although I chuckle at the thought of Chomsky as compromising.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Well I am dealing wih the dynamic

not personalities.

:hi: