For those fearing an alliance with tea parties

[nadinbrzezinski]

this is what they FEAR... form horses mouth now

"The CLGC memo raises another issue that it says should be of concern to the financial industry -- that OWS might find common cause with the Tea Party. “Well-known Wall Street companies stand at the nexus of where OWS protestors and the Tea Party overlap on angered populism,” the memo says. “…This combination has the potential to be explosive later in the year when media reports cover the next round of bonuses and contrast it with stories of millions of Americans making do with less this holiday season.”



http://upwithchrishayes.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/19/8896362-exclusive-lobbying-firms-memo-spells-out-plan-to-undermine-occupy-wall-street-video

Yes, been posted before BUT THIS IS CRITICAL... they fear the BS divisions will no longer work.

[tridim]

1. Teabaggers love corporate control.

They are the polar opposite of OWS.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Having seen this in the field

they are Americans just as much as you are... their LEADERS (and toadies) are... But be careful about that.

[tridim]

17. Of course they're Americans. I didn't say they weren't.

However, they are also TOOLS of corporations, and they love it. They say and do whatever their leaders dictate.

Sorry, I still don't see any common ground.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Alas their LEADERS do not want them

to talk to the dirty hippies at the OWS camps.

That is the LAST THING their leaders want them to do.

If you keep this us vs them mentality you play into THEIR LEADERS narrative.

Will you be able to find common ground with all? Heck no... but with most of them... absolutely.

[unkachuck]

60. "If you keep this us vs them mentality you play into THEIR LEADERS narrative."

....interesting, are you suggesting an alliance, a marriage of convenience? Win a few battles, hopefully win the war then fight tooth and nail over policy and direction?

....you know, corrosive financial elements will infiltrate from both directions to seize control....how would we protect our core policies, values and constituents without sliding down the slippery slope of protracted compromise?

....just askin'

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. What I have observed in the field

is not an alliance. It is actually far more dangerous and revolutionary... why the company releasing this memo fears it. Tea parties and OWSers are dropping all pretention that they supposed to be somehow on opposing sides of an imaginary partisan battlefield. It is because OWS is all but partisan.

I attended, as a counter protestor, a few Tea Party rallies. The Tea party did the usual Liberals this, socialists, that. aka it was about THEM, and I. It was about creating an enemy, a caricature of liberals was out for all to see.

The OWS rallies are about OUR, and US, and WE.

Linguistically they are dropping all divisions and embracing each other as EQUALS, with an equal voice. They are also trying to build real communities and take care of the invisible among us.

Also T Parties were very much top down, authoritarian (once they were fully co-opted) OWS... well I know who the leaders are, but in reality there are no leaders, All are equal and you too can come and participate, not as a democrat, or republican or tea party or what have you, but as an American. In fact as a member of the human race for some.

There is also a reason why the top leadership of the T Parties (and a few nuts in the religious right) have told their people NOT to go, under any circumstance, to encampments, using all kinds of threats including burn in hell threats.

As to efforts to take it over... let me be quite brutally honest. OWS is PERCEIVED as a lefty thing... it is not. I am still trying to figure out what exactly they are... but do not fit any traditional definition of lefty... but in that sense NEITHER the Republicans or the DEMOCRATS want to embrace it.

I think the closest parallel to this... as to how it works... (as far as direct democracy is concerned) are the Lodges in the 1740s... with one major exception, the lodges were still top down... and these guys and gals are experimenting with flat organizations and using methods like Bakumin Spoke wheel. Which I am now reading again... I had to read some in college, now I am slogging through more.

It is not that it is not political, It is. It is not partisan. And how this works it will make it far harder to take over.

[CJCRANE]

3. Yep, SarahPalin just wrote an editorial for the WSJ

blaming government for corrupting Wall Street. Wall Street is innocent in her eyes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. St. Sarah is among the leaders not the rank and file

Remember Tea party was CO-OPTED by the establishment in the GOP...

[vcc]

7. what about rank-and-file Democrats and liberals?

Remember Democratic party was co-opted by the GOP... Why are rank and file Democrats and liberals being mocked and shooed away and rank-and-file Tea Partiers embraced?

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Because red baiting is as old as the country

well almost... and for a much longer answer I recommend you read the Death of the Liberal Class, by Chris Hedges.

http://www.amazon.com/Death-Liberal-Class-Chris-Hedges/dp/1568586442

[GentryDixon]

33. I have not read the

referenced article, but I can assure Sarah Palin did not write it.

[sabrina 1]

10. There are two versions of the Teaparty.

Many of the original, anti-Wall Street teapartiers left after it was taken over by the Republicans.

Karl Denninger, eg, is widely credited with having started the Anti-Wall Wall Street movement and as a founder of the Teaparty. He is no longer associated with the current version of the TP stating that it was coopted and used by Republicans.

He supports OWS and has condemned the current version of the TP, stating he believes that OWS has a better chance of success IF they do not give in to the demands of its critics, asking for leaders and lists.

He currently runs the Market Ticker and is has little to do with what happened to the original TP which he condemns.

I hope both movements do join forces on the issues they are both about. We did not need this report to know that this would be Wall St's worst nightmare.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. But the report is evidence of this

in the tangible form.

[sabrina 1]

19. Yes, it does and it is great to see confirmed, what we suspected

that they fear alliances among the people who they have worked so hard to divide, more than anything else.

I never agreed with those who objected to everyone being welcome in this movement, it is a PEOPLE'S movement, and the minute it becomes coopted by any Political Party, it will, like the original TP, fail, which is the goal of the Wall Street Criminals.

And I wish people would stop trying to coopt it, such as Democratic Pacs. I keep getting emails from these orgs using OWS to promote political candidates. They need to stop. Let them put forward candidates who are going to work for the people, and we will decide whether to vote for them or not, but using OWS is only going to harm the movement, and they need to be told to do their thing, and let the people do theirs. I will not donate to any political group trying to coopt this movement.

[Turn CO Blue]

22. I don't think so. Both of my brothers (sigh) are Teathugs and have

more and more been expressing anger toward the mega-corps and their advantages (tax advantages, subsidies) and one brother said the big corps are "criminals"...remember, when an Teaparty persons says "let the market decide" they ALSO mean that consumers should determine the success of any single product or company - NOT the government and NOT a monopoly. So they don't like it when Walmart or Comcast has a huge advantage (and over a mom&pop shop or a medium-sized chain or a start-up company.



We CAN come together on some issues.

[aletier_v]

24. not true

I had hoped (and expected) that a real solution would come from the Right and Im still baffled by the stupiity of the republicans. but clearly, momentum and hope is on the Left now. i never expected a renewed civil rights approach but am quite happy to support it (and nonviolence) as long as its working.

[vcc]

5. Democrats & liberals, not Tea Party, are who have always stood for the little guy.

I'm gobsmacked that the g.d. TEA PARTY is being discussed as an ally of OWS and the Democrats and liberals are being villified. What planet are we on?!

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Notice WHO is worried

Try to connect that dot...

And having seen this in the field... Tea party and "dreamy lefty" starting from defined positions and having an actual CIVILIZED discussion.

Were you at the Tea Party Rallies? I was... the energy at OWS is very different... it is conducive to talk and UNITY.

It is leaving the labels and seeing each other as a fellow AMERICAN.

[vcc]

8. every American is an American.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Yes but the NOW WORRIED elite

that firm is part of it... is telling you that this is dangerous. They have been working hard to make you see the tea parties as enemies and for them to see you as enemies...

THis dynamic IS changing... and both no longer seeing each other as enemies is dangerous for those controlling the puppet strings, Do not make the mistake of confusing the puppeteers with the actual puppets.

[sabrina 1]

20. Why are you 'gobsmacked'? You have demonstrated in other

comments that you have zero understanding of this People's Movement. All Americans are welcome, all have the same concerns.

Karl Denninger was one of the founders of the original TP and a very decent, honest man. He was among the first to organize demonstrations against Wall St influence on our government and the corruption that has yet to be dealt with.

He is more than welcome in this movement, he supports it, he is no longer associated with the Republican coopted, rightwing phonies calling themselves the TP.

Get used to it, this movement is for ALL Americans, all religions, non-religious, ethnicities, crosses political lines and will continue to do so. You clearly do not understand what it is about. It is NOT a political organization, how hard is that to understand?

[vcc]

25. right, so if it's for ALL Americans, why isn't it embracing Democrats?

[sabrina 1]

29. Are you serious? Do you really not understand what this all

about?

Many of those now on the streets voted for Democrats in 2008 giving them both houses of Congress and the WH.

What happened? Were the corrupt Bankers prosecuted? Did we get a Public Option in the HC bill? Were War Criminals held accountable? Did the wars end, or wait, were more started?

When democrats tried to push those they elected to fight for them, to get rid of the DLC/Third Way Warmongering/Wall St-supporting wing of the Democratic Party and return it to the people, they were told to 'stfu' that their 'ideas were retarded'.

So, now, the people, from all across the political spectrum realize that the SYSTEM is broken, and no, they will NOT support any political party that is funded by Wall Street until that party begins to do the people's work, start prosecuting war criminals and Wall Street criminals, make laws that forbid Money in Politics etc. etc.

People are sick of the games, the Lobbyists, the broken system which both parties are a part of. And sick of being told to STFU and ignored by those they elected who appear to be either too stupid to fix anything, or are happy with the status quo.

Now the people are going to do what the politicians refused to do, either fix if possible, or replace with democracy, the broken political system.

[vcc]

41. and you're talking about embracing people who voted for the Tea Party...

...who currently has our country in a death grip. Why embrace the rank and file tea party voter and not the rank-and-file democrat voter?

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. How hard is to undersand (rethorical truly)

that this is about the UNITED STATES and it is very political, just not in the traditional way of us vs them

[vcc]

45. how hard is it to answer why you're not embracing rank-and-file democrats?

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. and it is not embracing rank and file Republicans

it is embracing AMERICANS.

It is quite apolitical if you think of ORGANIZED parties... otherwise it is quite political. It is also horizontal, not hierarchical.

I could go on.

I know it is confounding if you think of this as parties... it is not that.

[sabrina 1]

57. We are way beyond party politics at this point. I am talking about

Americans who saw the corruption on Wall Street, the lack of accountability and protested. Any of those people who want to join this movement, belong there.

As for the rightwing organizations who funded the takeover of the TP, they are part of the problem and many of those sincere Americans who realize what happened and condemn it, can and should join this movement whose goals include ridding our political of exactly that kind of corrupt money being able to hijack the system and buy seats in Congress. They are as opposed to this as we all are.

If you can't understand the difference between those who genuinely opposed the corruption and the orgs who came in and used them, by now, you probably are too involved in partisan politics to ever understand it. But fortunately more and more Americans are coming to the conclusion that their country right now is in serious distress and they need to unite in order to begin the process of restoring it to the people. After that, we will work out whatever other differences we have.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. It is...

democrats, tea partiers, whatever you want to call yourself. Start with the word AMERICAN... it rolls of the tongue nicely

[vcc]

47. good to see you say that, but...

... there've also been a flurry of posts insinuating that somehow democrats (big D and/or little d) are more of a problem than tea partiers. I just want that straightened out, that's all. If you really want to embrace all Americans, then it's only fair to embrace ALL Americans.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. I do not talk for OWS, nobody can even pretend to do that

but from coming from the field and observing this... it is about Americans, not parties. The it is not embracing (insert group here) is a way to try to divide people again.

Now SOME people in OWS might not want democrats, or republicans or green, or tea parties. THe movement itself is not that.

[rucky]

9. I'm not afraid to start a dialogue.

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Neither am I

but those referred in the story (part of the 1%) are.

[JoePhilly]

26. Start with Citizen's United ... and see how far you get.

Every Tea Party person I've talked to has no problem with that decision.

Most TPers think money is free speech.

I'm not sure how that would connect with intent of OWS.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. You;'d be surprised by some of the discussios at the

encampments.

[JoePhilly]

51. Which encampments? Or do you mean that some in OWS support Citizen's United?

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. The political discussions are amazing

And no, OWS does not support Citizens United. Part of it's statement of principles by the by. Yup the ones published by the General assembly and read by Keith oh two months ago.

But I have seen this with my own eyes. Hard core Libertarians (even tea parties) and hard core dreamy left, start from usual expected talking points, and going on a CIVILIZED discusion for a good hour, half an hour, what have you and, not scream at each other... and actually agree on some issues.

They also are starting to see each other not as a libtard and tea partier, but as Americans. The divisions are starting to fall apart and that is actually very dangerous for the power elite.

[JoePhilly]

58. Yes, I hear all that ... but you are not responding directly.

You are saying that OWS and the TP might be able to find common ground. And then you say ... drop the labels.

Fine ... my point is that if you put Citizen's United on the table, in front of these "un-labeled" people ... that they will again separate.

That assertion is not about "libtards" and "TPers" per see.

The point is that the Citizen's United decision will redraw the same lines.

And I think that if you want to remove the labels and engage on key issues, I've given you THE key issue ... Citizen United.

If these unlabeled people can find common ground there, then you are on to something.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. A lot of citizens united involves education

Yes SOME will go back to their camps... some will never even try to discuss these things... some, brutally honest... are afraid of OWS (and the TParty)

But that is SOME.

People are actually reaching across and AGREEING... that is where education comes in.

I am not for building taller walls actually, but for breaking the current ones, even if I know a few will remain... and this is what power elites fear. Why that MEMO was so damn revealing. They fear this... and they know that the leaders of the T Party have said NOT to go to any camp. Why is that? It is not because they are afraid of their people remaining loyal to the cause, I will tell you that.

[XemaSab]

15. I'm all for starting a dialogue

A return to the CONSTITUTION is a good starting place.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. And it already started

[NashVegas]

21. That May Be True, But I Wouldn't Put Much Stock In That Memo

The Big Boys don't put a fucking price tag on a strategic sales pitch, in print. They don't say, "all this will cost you $850k for a campaign" at the end of a memo like that, if they are trying to drum up business. They say, "call Bob to talk about a targeted plan for your business."

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. So you are telling me that Christ Hayes lied

Ok

[slipslidingaway]

63. I wonder about that as well. n/t

[vcc]

23. what corrupt big biz fears MOST is the Democrats.

The unmentioned elephant in that memo is the Democratic party. Sure, big biz might fear a few rank-and-file tea partiers defecting into OWS, but what they REALLY fear is ANYONE swelling the Democrats' ranks. Because the Democrats are an experienced party with an established history and many experienced leaders who can make high level change with a majority; and they are not far from a majority in government and already have a majority in the populace. Whereas OWS is a fledgling movement besieged by potential problems and setbacks and as of yet is only comprised of a tiny percentage of people with absolutely no political power. They fear the Democrats because the Democrats, as a party, have the power to regulate their asses back into a decent standard of behavior with a quickness.

[Douglas Carpenter]

28. oh nonsense, the Wall Street interest gives just as much money and support to the Democrats as they

do the Republicans - sometimes like in 2008- much, much more. Yes, I would agree that the corporate powers would generally prefer a Republican administration - but they are quite comfortable with the Democratic Party, particularly the Democratic Party of the last 30 years when popular tide has shifted that direction. Any cursory review of how the corporations and Wall Street interest direct their money toward campaigns and lobbying efforts will prove this beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt. The Democratic Party has played just as big a role in the last two decades of promoting so-called free trade agreements like NAFTA and GATT and countless others and other agreements that have reduced massively America's role as an industrial exporter and have complete neutered the union movement. It was a Democratic Administration that supported the repeal of Glass-Steagall and a Democratic Administrations that brought in new rules for welfare that have pushed millions of people into utter desperation. It a Democratic Congress that gave Reagan 80% of what he wanted and Democratic Presidents that give the Republicans Congresses 80% of what they want. They should, they were bought, paid for and financed by the same exact corporate interest that finance the GOP.


Yes I have always voted and supported the Democratic candidate and encouraged everyone I know to do so and would but in the rarest of exceptions. But I do so with open eyes - not living in the land of fantasy and make believe.

[vcc]

32. the main difference is the Dems' consistent M.O. of *regulation*...

I'm not disagreeing with you that both Dems and Repubs get money from corporations, nor even disagreeing that there are some corrupt Dem officials. But two points: 1) getting money from corporations doesn't automatically mean getting *corrupted* by the money, or at least not uniformly so. That's an inter-relation of factors that can vary a lot. And 2) the whole reason Dems exist separate from Repubs can be boiled down to bigger government for economic affairs. Individual Dems vary as to how much, but it is a central tenet of the party. This means more regulation which curtails the flagrancy of big business and obviously big business doesn't like that. So they are always going to try and limit the power of Dems to exercise this power and side with any other group that either won't exercise it or might be convinced not to. This is why I don't believe they're truly scared of rank-and-file tea partiers joining forces with OWS: because they know that, at core, even rank-and-file tea partiers will always be about less government regulation and will either try to convince OWS to take that stance or will end up voting Teapublican on election day regardless.

[Douglas Carpenter]

34. what Republican President said, "The era of big government is over." ?

Well, I'll give you a hint - it was said on January 27, 1996 and it wasn't a Republican. The simple fact is deregulation has been promoted by the Democrats with only marginally less enthusiasm than the Republicans. The previous Democratic Administration during the 90's was on economic issues in many, many ways more Wall Street and corporate friendly than Ronald Reagan. It is not just an issue of "some corrupt Dem officials" . The corporations and Wall Street interest give just as much money to the Democrats and get the results they want. The record speaks for itself. Even the proposal for universal health care under a Democratic president and strong Democratic majorities in both houses of Congress who were all swept into power on a mandate ended up producing a Heritage Foundation written - Republican program that is little more than the nationalization of Romneycare. And they achieved it with barely a single Republican vote. The insurance company moguls and Wall Street financiers must have been breaking out the champaign that day! Take a look at the world where the vast overwhelming majority of Democratic Party politicians and operatives live. Who are their friends? Where do their kids go to school? Who shows up a their parties? They are NOT the party of the common people.

I don't know if there is any room for any kind of alliance between the Tea Party and and OWS. Personally, I kind of doubt it, except perhaps on some limited issues. But I don't see any harm in talking to anyone, anytime any place.

[sabrina 1]

31. What utter nonsense.

Wall Street OWNS both parties. The only fight is between both parties for Wall Street money. Wall Street doesn't care which party gets the money, they will give it the one who demonstrates they are the party who will best protect their interests.

This memo is the Republican wing of the Wall Street government looking for the job Democrats now have.

All you have to do is look at the funding of candidates from both parties. And that is going to be a big issue in the next election. Wall Street funded candidates V real people's candidates who take no money from Wall Street.

That is how we begin to get the money out of our government.

[fostercareinjustice]

27. Well, we have common ground in not wanting the government to waste money. Maybe we could work from

there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. That is where things are starting in many cases

indeed.

Welcome to DU

:hi:

[Sherman A1]

30. There are many areas with which common ground can be found

I think one could start with the word "Bankers" and go from there.

People are pissed. They may not know at who or at whom, but they are angry and it is best to find areas of agreement and areas where the groups can civilly disagree.

[A Simple Game]

35. Exactly, we have common complaints in most areas. Hence being the 99%.

The problem is in the solutions.

The powers that be keep us divided with abortion, guns, religion, etc.

If we can ever figure out common solutions, the 1% are in big trouble.

[Sherman A1]

36. Precisely

and I believe they know that they would be in big trouble. We can only hope that this comes to be.

[bvar22]

37. When the Working Class & the Poor....

...realize we have more in common with each other,
than we have in common with the Rich, Elite Class Leaders of BOTH Political Parties,
WE can have "CHANGE".

"The worst enemy of humanity is U.S. capitalism. That is what provokes uprisings like our own, a rebellion against a system, against a neoliberal model, which is the representation of a savage capitalism. If the entire world doesn't acknowledge this reality, that nation states are not providing even minimally for health, education and nourishment, then each day the most fundamental human rights are being violated."
----Bolivian Reform President Evo Morales

FDR said much the same thing in 1944 with his Economic Bill of Rights,
but FDR and THAT Democratic Party are long dead.
Hopefully, it can be resurrected,
but that will take a Come to Jesus epiphany of the Party leadership.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[gkhouston]

38. They can bring the porta potties, we'll bring large, unpaid crowds. n/t

[krabigirl]

39. the libertarians and the left can come together on some things, but idk about the tea party

[Blue_In_AK]

40. An Occupy and Tea Party coalition

is their worst nightmare. I've said all along that we have much in common with the grass roots Tea Party people.

[Zorra]

46. The Tea Party members will just vote republican like they alway have.

Rebels without a clue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. I am not so sure

Actually a good percentage of OWSers wil NOT VOTE... how many I don't know. SOme will vote for old... and what we will have next year is another wave... problem with waves is that it is difficult to predict, Recent evidence tells me that even Republicans are starting to vote Democratic now due to overreach

That said, my personal feeling... voting is irrelevant. Yup I will vote, but change will NOT come from the booth... it will come from the streets.

[NNN0LHI]

55. Westboro Baptist Church and the Klu Klux Klan were both against the Iraq war

Does that mean we should have some common ground with them? Are they part of the 99% you speak of? Should we form an alliance with the Birthers and begin researching the validity of President Obamas birth certificate with them because they are part of the 99%?

How far are you looking to go with this? Where is your cut off point? Is there a cut off point as to who you would ally yourself with to accomplish whatever you are trying to accomplish?

Don

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. So you shoudl demonize people for ever

and see them as our eternal sworn enemies? Do play into the discourse of those who actually pull the strings, won't you?

By the way that is a nice straw man you are using there.



By the way, the puppeteers than you. And no I am not kidding.

[tex-wyo-dem]

61. I've felt for some time now that if the TP and OWS...

Could come together in a common cause, that would be a very powerful alliance...even necessary in order to get where we want to go...and it would scare the shit out of the PTB.

There is definitely common ground (wall st and govt corruption and collusion are a couple of biggies), but of course there are challenges as well. The undercurrent of bashing capitalism and supporting some form of socialism among many in the OWS movement (myself included) I'm sure would be definite problems for many TPers/conservatives.

But the important thing would be getting the conversation going rather than continuing to throw grenades at each other. I agree continuing to be divided plays right into the PTB's plans.

[slipslidingaway]

62. Some people tried with the FISA bill and retoactive immunity back in 2008 ...

Accountability Now and Strange Bedfellows: The strategy and rationale
http://www.salon.com/2008/07/14/accountability_4/

"...All of this highlights the central political dilemma in the U.S. The Bush-led Republican Party, marching in virtual lockstep, has been the author of the radicalism, extremism and lawlessness of the last seven years, presiding over an endlessly expanding Surveillance State and accompanying war-making machine, and the dismantling of numerous core Constitutional principles. While numerous individual elected Democrats have opposed many of these measures, the Democratic Party’s leadership, and the Party collectively, has done nothing to stop it and much to support and enable all of it..."

Agreed, continuing the division along Part lines does not help the 99%.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. And the conversation is starting

I've seen it with my own eyes... people starting from their ends of the rhetorical ring, and meeting somewhere in the middle. No, not the middle that we are told either... that middle is far to the left of where the politicos are.

As to socialism and all that, SOME in OWS feel that way...

I cannot say it is even close to all. It is truly a cross section of the country.