How Did Steve Jobs Get His Liver?

[meegbear]

What's wrong with Steve Jobs? Apple won't say. On Monday, the company said he was taking a medical leave—his third since 2004—but refused to disclose why. Yesterday Apple touted its market prospects in a conference call but again said nothing about its CEO's health. You can argue that Jobs' medical privacy is more important than the interests of Apple's investors. But there's another reason why he should tell us what's going on, and it's bigger than money. It's life and death.

Two years ago, Jobs gamed the transplant allocation system to get a liver that could have saved somebody else. At the time, skeptics doubted that he should have received the organ, since he'd been treated for pancreatic cancer—in fact, he may have sought the liver because of the cancer—and the likelihood of the cancer's recurrence made him a bad bet for putting the liver to best use. If his health is now failing because of the cancer, that suspicion may be vindicated.

Jobs lives in Northern California, but he got his liver in Tennessee. Why? Different parts of the country have different waiting lists, and the wait in Northern California was three times longer than the wait in Tennessee. In fact, the median wait in the Tennessee area where Jobs snagged his liver was around 15 percent of the national average. Jobs confirmed last year that this is why he went to Tennessee: "My doctors here advised me to enroll in a transplant program in Memphis, Tennessee, where the supply/demand ratio of livers is more favorable than it is in California here." Legally, you're allowed to get on multiple waiting lists around the country. That's how you game the system.

So why doesn't everybody do this? Because they can't. First you have to show up for an extensive in-person evaluation. Then you have to be available for a transplant in the area within hours of an organ becoming available. And while one jurisdiction might accept you as a charity case, if you want to play the field you'll have to prove you can pay for the transplant yourself. You also get priority points for being able to guarantee follow-up medical care, since this assures transplant allocators that the organ will be well cared for. Ordinary people can't compete with billionaires at meeting these tests. They can't go to multiple states for evaluations. They don't have private jets. Their insurance doesn't cover multiple evaluations and may not cover much of the half-million dollar transplant, much less the follow-up care.

<snip>

http://www.slate.com/id/2281668/

:popcorn:

[Monsoon]

1. An I-Phone app maybe?

Just a WAG.

[malaise]

2. So the rich now own

your organs. Cheney is coming for a heart near you. :evilgrin:

[Kalyke]

6. Overhead a worker in another building say that very thing

out on the walking trails.

He said, "That Cheney is evil. The CIA probably will find a match and then put a bullet in that person's head so Cheney can get the heart."

And, I live in Tennessee (where, apparently, I can get a liver transplant in a shorter amount of time, if necessary).

[janet118]

21. Don't be so sure . . .

"And, I live in Tennessee (where, apparently, I can get a liver transplant in a shorter amount of time, if necessary)."

Not if billionaires are cutting in line.

[Hannah Bell]

52. not unless you have money. poor people don't get organ transplants.

medicaid is disinclined to pay.

& if you're a poor person who drank his liver to death, forget about it. unlike mickey mantle, david crosby, & other drunken luminaries who got liver transplants.

[JVS]

19. This is why I refuse to donate.

Hospitals profit, rich people get prefferential treatment, but if I need medical help it's a huge imposition as far as they're concerned. Well fuck them. No blood for them, no organs for them.

[Shandris]

30. Thanks.

Take one out of the pool, the rich guy still gets his and I don't get one. Your generosity is fucking astounding.

[JVS]

43. But if you work to fix it and put the rich guy back to the place in line where he belongs, then ...

I join in and you get double the goodness.

[Shandris]

67. You're overlooking a simple matter of mathematics, though.

If you (1 person) donate, and another person has already donated, and the rich guy takes 1, 1 is still left. If ONLY another person has already donated, and the rich guy takes 1, then another person dies. And for what? Did you get to write a Conscientous Objector notation on your donor form? Maybe one of those little things that can only be read with a magnifying glass?

On the other hand, you say that if I work to fix it and put the guy back in line, then you'll donate. Hey, that's great -- at least you've given me a task. Now, I'm not quite certain how I'm going to go about forcing the United States Congress, the For-Profit Corporate Health System, the Insurance System, and the power of sheer human greed to comply to my work and wishes...but I guess it's a start...?

I just don't think you're taking a very reasoned approach, and your opinion may end up being that my thought is just MY opinion. I would still ask you to reconsider your position, however. Real people's lives depend on decisions like this; even if some scumsucking rich bastard is skimming one off the top every now and then, there are CONSIDERABLY more people in need of transplants than there are rich people to skim the till.

[JVS]

71. You're assuming a 100% probability of me dying in such a way that the organs can be used.

But anyway, my participation in such a program is contingent on a level of corruption lower than what currently exists and until they clean up their act I will not cooperate with their system.

[Rebubula]

38. So...

...your paranoia about hospital administration keeps you from helping people out with your organs and blood????

REALLY?

If that works for you and you can rationalize the action - well, good for you. I could not live (LOL) with myself if I took my organs when someone still alive could use them.

[JVS]

42. What paranoia? I don't like the way they operate, so I refuse to play ball.

[Hannah Bell]

55. it's not paranoia.

[Hannah Bell]

54. that's why i changed my donor status two years ago. the more i found out

about organ transplants, the more i thought fuck that racket.

this is how concentrated wealth kills society.

[Hannah Bell]

51. It's actually true. The rich do own the organs of the poor, & there are growing scandals

being swept under the rug.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

3. Why am I having flashbacks of all that gossip about Soviet leaders' health in the 70s/80s?

[REP]

4. I'm B- and in kidney failure. When I need a tx, I will be on multiple registers due to the wait time

B- recipients have the longest wait time (O- is the next longest wait time). If and when I become Stage 4 ( with my blood type and disease, they don't wait to Stage 5), I will be placed on multiple registries. There is nothing unusual about this. I also live in Northern California.

[Seedersandleechers]

8. I would think

O neg would be the longest wait time as O neg and B neg could donate to a B neg, but no one could donate to O neg but 0 neg. :shrug:

[REP]

11. B- is a rare blood type; O- is more common but Universal Donor

B- can receive B- or O- only; B- is something like 7% of the population.

[Seedersandleechers]

26. Actually

B neg is only 2% of the population, where 0 neg is 7%. That being said, since B neg can receive B neg and 0 neg, that would be 9% of the population that can donate, whereas 0 neg can ONLY receive 0 neg, and that would be 7% of the population. So really, just a 2% difference. Either way, since I'm an 0 neg, I guess we're both going to have a hard time getting an organ donation. :hi:

[virgogal]

10. Thanks for that info and I wish you well.

[City Lights]

15. Thanks for sharing...best wishes to you.

Hope you don't have to wait until it's time to place you on multiple registries. :hug:

[Tippy]

5. K&R.....Money talks.....

[BrklynLiberal]

7. +10000

[RandomKoolzip]

9. My father died of liver cancer because we were too poor to get on

a liver transplant waiting list - or more accurately, we were too poor to be able to jump ahead of others on the list - in Connecticut. I'll still use Apple products but shit like this pisses me off. I'd rather have my father back than have more Apple products.

[REP]

12. Don't blame Apple - blame fucking UNOS

They'll give me a lower priority because I don't have children. Of course, my kidney disease means pregnancy is a death sentence, but that doesn't matter to UNOS.

Apple doesn't require you to have $10,000.00 to get on the list. UNOS does.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ichingcarpenter]

24. People start Anti- Apple/Jobs threads

all the time here.

You didn't slam Apple or Jobs.

I blame the system and that includes the agencies that handle it.
Not Jobs or Apple.

Sorry about your Dad. I've known many that had a tough time
getting the transplant they needed, most didn't get it in time.


I unrecorded this thread because I knew where it would go.

[RandomKoolzip]

25. Is THAT what this is about?!

For fuck's sake...I've always used Apple products but if someone wants to use some other brand, more power to 'em. Who gives a shit?

The only point to my post is that I thought it was unfair that some billionaire got a liver from gaming the system while my dad died because we had no money or power. I don't care WHO the billionaire is or what company he's the CEO of.

Seriously, guys - life is too short to keep this dumb Apple vs. everything else flamewar going. Just like what you like and don't worry about what others like.

[OhioChick]

46. Agreed

:hug:

[Angry Dragon]

28. ..........

:hi:

:hug:

[JVS]

20. Plenty of blame to go around.

[Celebration]

13. Tennessee has a shorter waiting list

Because there is a question about organ donation on every person's drivers' license. Jobs has worked for the same thing in California, because he admits that he was able to relocate while other people can't. So something good came out of this.

I don't think a single person here would have acted differently, if they had the same circumstances and money as Jobs. I don't fault him at all, and applaud his trying to change things in his home state.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

14. Rather than whinging, make sure people know you want your organs donated.

I don't bother carrying a donor card, but I've made sure my next of kin all know that I'd want my organs used for donations.

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. And what about the chianti and the fava beans?

[JVS]

18. They sent it over from China with the latest shipment of iPads.

[Hannah Bell]

57. no joke. the poor & powerless are the "universal donors"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6810287.ece

[CanonRay]

22. We have the best healthcare system in the world

if you're Steve Jobs.

[HopeHoops]

23. The grocery store?

:shrug:

[leeroysphitz]

27. The old fashioned way. n/t

[kenny blankenship]

29. Let's just say it's good to have a few factories over in China

just stuffed with tens of thousands of young healthy workers recently come in from the provinces and cut off from their families.

[AngryAmish]

31. I often refer to my employees as my organ banks

If I need one, there is where I go. Of course I do not allow my employees to smoke or drink. Exercise is also mandatory (primarily for other reasons). Finally, I cap my employees age at 41.

[OhioChick]

32. Money talks n/t

[cleanhippie]

33. Why? Because he is RICH!

The rich get anything they want, don't you know that?

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NoPasaran]

35. If great wealth can't buy the occasional liver

What's the point in being rich?

:shrug:

[Buddyblazon]

36. Phil Lesh from the Grateful Dead...

has Hep-C. He got a new liver.

Isn't that awesome!?!?!

Rules do not apply when you have money.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. Yeah, actually, it is.

Phil's been running fine on his new liver for something like 14 years, now. Seems a little late to begrudge him it.

[Hannah Bell]

58. not the only one. mickey mantle, david crosby...i'm sure there are more.

they spent most of their lives fucking up their liver & no problem getting a new one.

poor people who did the same will *never* get one.

[Sirveri]

75. It's worse since Steve Jobs is HIV+

Saw that little gem on wikileaks archives

[Imagevision]

37. you got the bucks - you got the power...

[Stevenmarc]

40. Someones gone missing at the Genius Bar

[ChromeFoundry]

41. Wonder if Jobs had a donor card prior to becoming ill. n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

44. The rich and celebrities get transplants. That's just how it is.

[bluestate10]

48. Maybe.

A system where donors dictate the social class of people they want their donated organs to go to would partially solve that problem. Getting hospitals to honor the donor's dictate could be an issue if the enabling legislation for dedication did not force hospitals and donor banks to honor the donor's wishes.

[Odin2005]

45. The rich do anything they want? Who'd've thunk it?

[Swamp Rat]

47. 'We're here for y... Steve Jobs's liver.'

[Mnemosyne]

49. Same place Darth will buy his new "heart", I would imagine.

:shrug:

Sorry, could not resist. I'm in PA where miracles of heart/lung transplants happen extremely quickly for the wealthy and connected.

:hi: Please pass the :popcorn:

[Hannah Bell]

50. He's rich. Any questions? Maybe it came from a peasant in Kosovo.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/16/world/europe/16kosovo.html

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

53. it came from a local teenager killed in a car accident

I have little love for Apple or Jobs - but this is a ridiculous thing to attack somebody for.

[JVS]

56. Local to where? Local with regard to the TN home that Jobs doesn't really live at?

[Hannah Bell]

59. i see no attack on jobs personally. is he rich? yes he is. do north americans get donor organs

from poor people in kosovo, not to mention india, china, istanbul, moscow, etc.?

yes, they do.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

60. Not in any large number,

There aren't very many organs fit for donation after an international flight and few would travel to a third world country for such purposes.

[Hannah Bell]

61. baloney.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

62. having received third world healthcare...

I don't think I would be too interested in having an organ transplant from a peasant of an unknown medical condition performed by doctors of unknown competence.

[Hannah Bell]

64. what *you* would want is irrelevant.

September, five doctors from South Africa were charged with participating in an international kidney-trading syndicate in which dozens of poor Brazilians and Romanians were paid for kidneys for wealthy Israelis. Analysts said the organ-trafficking case was part of a disturbing global trend in which unscrupulous traffickers take advantage of the growing waiting lists of desperate patients and the vulnerability of poor people further buffeted by the international financial crisis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/16/world/europe/16kosovo.html


Executed prisoners in China are being stripped of their kidneys, livers and hearts in a practice so widespread that two out of three transplant operations rely on organs removed from condemned criminals.

The China Daily newspaper, in a first public acknowledgement of the reliance on prisoners for body parts, said that 65 per cent of donations came from death row. Huang Jiefu, the country’s Deputy Health Minister, said that condemned prisoners were “definitely not a proper source for organ transplants”.

Despite a 2007 regulation barring trading in human tissue, demand for new organs far exceeds legitimate supply.

Illegal transplants from living donors, and tales of foreigners travelling to China for transplants, are frequently reported by media and the Ministry of Health.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6810287.ece


In recent years, many Indian cities - like Chennai in southern India - have become hubs of a murky business in kidney transplants, despite a 1994 nationwide ban on human organ sales (the Transplant of Human Organ Act states only relatives of patients can donate kidneys).

An influx of patients, mainly foreigners, seeking the transplants, has made the illicit market a lucrative business. Some analysts say the business thrives for the same reasons that have made India a top destination for medical tourism: low cost and qualified doctors. In fact, medical tourism is expected to reach $2.2 billion by 2012, according to government estimates.

http://articles.sfgate.com/2008-02-09/news/17141227_1_kidneys-transplants-medical-tourism

US, Europe concealed organ trafficking by Kosovo Liberation Army
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/dec2010/koso-d29.shtml

Organ trafficking was long considered a myth. But now mounting evidence suggests it is a real and growing problem, even in America.

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/01/09/not-just-urban-legend.html

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

79. I didn't deny it exists - I said it is unusual.

North Americans are not on the forefront of this,

[Liquorice]

63. I think the problem is not with a rich man doing anything he can to save his life,

which almost anyone would do given his situation, but with the whole system. I can't be angry with Steve Jobs if he used his money to try to live. It's the system that is messed up. I also really think we should be much further ahead in our medical knowledge and abilities than we are.

[Hannah Bell]

65. steve jumping the line means someone else dies. yes, the system; but also steve.

[cherokeeprogressive]

66. He cut it out of an unsuspecting Windows user with a butter knife.

[MrSlayer]

68. No one really believes in "The List" do they?

List jumping goes on all the time. Having connections is a huge benefit and for a guy like Jobs it's practically automatic. Cheney will get his too if he really wants it. I've seen it happen.

[Hannah Bell]

69. cheney is 70; over the usual age limit to be put on a waiting list. but yeah, he'll

likely get one if he wants one.

[social_critic]

70. His being a billionaire is secondary

Jobs deserves it because he's the most creative nerd of the last 50 years. I dare you to come up with a better candidate. I would say the rules should allow for very talented people to stretch their lives, and if this takes somebody else dying, then so be it. Rather than bitching about it, maybe you should encourage everybody to sign up to be donors. If we all did, there would be no waiting list.

[Hannah Bell]

72. oh, gag me. why don't you just lick his boots & be done with it.

[JVS]

73. Jobs has lived a full life. I'd totally deep six his application if I were on the death panel.

[Hannah Bell]

74. he's only 56 & he's a geeeeeenius! unlike this 33-year-old pot-smoking loser:

Now, a second critically ill patient in Washington state says he has been denied a spot in two organ transplant programs because he uses doctor-prescribed marijuana.

Jonathon Simchen, 33, of Fife, a town south of Seattle, is a diabetic whose kidneys and pancreas have failed.

He said he was removed from the transplant program at Virginia Mason Hospital in Seattle because he admitted using medical marijuana. Later, he said, University of Washington Medical Center transplant officials refused to accept him because of the medical marijuana issue.

"I'm just so discouraged," said the community college student, who wants to be a teacher. "I've lost all remnants of hope. I look at my life right now as if it is a prison term. I just have to serve each day."

The lawyer who represented Garon has taken on Simchen's case.

Douglas Hiatt argues that his clients are the victims of a loosely defined transplant policy, one not based on science.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/may/19/nation/na-transplant19

[Wednesdays]

76. With onions?

:shrug:

All kidding aside, are we really to be surprised by this? After all, we're mere serfs to our Lords and Ladies.
:puke:

[Motown_Johnny]

77. I was going to say "A waitress brought it to him"

[eShirl]

78. What NEEDS to happen is make Organ Donor Status opt-out, rather than opt-in

BTW my husband is LIVING PROOF (going on 5 years) that people below the poverty line CAN and DO get organ transplants!! So everyone trying to discourage people from being donors because sometimes rich bastards get organ transplants, well you can shove it!