Posting Private Info

[hyphenate]

Fellow DUers, I have a request to make. I understand the desire will be strong to buck against my request, but in the end, I think that there will be a lot more peace and serenity to do so.

Some people stink. Some people suck. Some people are outright dangerous and evil. But, regardless of all that, people are still people.

I'll start by telling a short story about a recent comment I made to a friend, when a Repug had gotten off scott-free from an action he had taken, and not gotten called on it, in contrast to a Dem who had made a similar action, and was forced to pay the consequences for it. I asked why did WE have to be the ones who paid for a mistake, when in fact, the Repug was able to get away with it. My friend's reply? "We;re supposed to be better than that."

There was a nanosecond of prideful joy on hearing that, no matter how painful the sting was. I knew, in fact, that we, as liberals, have to be above the general field of humankind because we have consciences, we have standards, and we have an abiding desire to make life easier for all concerned.


So today, when I was looking at a few posts here, and there was a strong churning in my stomach when I saw private information published o one of the pepper-spraying cops at the Occupy group. Yes, the man is a sleazeball, yes, the man should be taken down, but it should not be predicated on having people print the man's home address and other such details of his life.

We are supposed to be better than that. We're supposed to be beyond that kind of immaturity. At heart, we might not really feel that way, but if we decide to wallow in the mud with the rest of humanity, we lose the higher ground, and we become just like them.

We can see this kind of thing being done by those on the other side. Constantly. We can see its affect when people like George Tiller are assassinated. We can see people getting attacked, even killed, when private information is made public. Do we have the right to expose others to the kind of treatment we wouldn't want happen to ourselves? No matter WHO that person is, exposing them in such a manner goes against everything we're supposed to stand for.

Posting information about someone's job, OTOH, isn't the same. If someone has been shown to have an attitude that clashes with his or her job, post their WORK information. If their behavior implies that they suck at their job, go right ahead and post their manager's or their boss's business number. Give out their business address. That's okay. That's reporting their screw-ups to their higher-ups.

But to expose their home address, or their home telephone number, might be exposing their children, their wives, even their parents to some danger down the road. And I know for me, I could never live with myself if I knew I had been instrumental in having an innocent harmed because I felt someone else had fucked up.

These people, right or wrong, should not have to worry about their family members being hurt. Yes, showing their bosses that the person doesn't deserve to keep their jobs is one thing. Making them fear for their lives, and the lives of those around them is another. Unless your name is Fred Phelps and you drag your entire family around with you to protest, you don't bring your family into any situation that carries a potentially dangerous risk.

We are supposed to be better than those on the other side. But we can't be better if we are just as eager to punish them in their private lives as those on the other side. If we keep it up, we won't have anyone to protest if WE'RE the ones who are getting threats to our families from someone publishing our home addresses or phone numbers.

[HappyMe]

1. Well said. nt

[MADem]

2. I agree with you. Leave families out of it. It's not their fault they might have an ass for a

relative.

I also still believe in rule of law. Vigilante justice is just not cool.

[MH1]

3. Recc'd but still 0.

:shrug:

Btw, I have an ATA post requesting clarification of DU policy.

I did alert on a post and it may have been deleted. I couldn't find it later but unfortunately I had not kept the link so am not sure.

Posting people's private info should never be allowed here for any reason.

ETA: glad to see the recs are showing now. :)

[Warpy]

8. Name and contact info should be allowed

when someone is identified as a bad actor, as in Officer Pike.

Leave the wife and kids out of it. Chances are they're already having a thin time of it living with him.

[hyphenate]

17. I have no problem with a person

being specifically identified at all. It's only through the proper publicity that we weed out the bastards. What I'm specifically referring to, though, are seeing a person's home address or phone number being used for purposes of revenge beyonf that person's work.

I have had problems with the home addresses and phone numbers being given out in the past--and I think about those people who haven't asked for the notoriety associated with idiots. This even happened to Al Gore some years ago, when his son was threatened by a group. Children and family members don't ask for involvement--they have to deal with it anyhow.

No matter how well intentioned a person might be in making public information out of personal details, the fact is, there is always going to be someone out there who is possibly going to use that information the wrong way. And once something is done, there is no turning back.

I say, castigate the perp as far and wide as you can, as long as members of his/her family are not threatened. When we start using the tactics that those on the right have used, we are no longer exempt from the problems that arise, and no longer better than them. When we keep above the fray in this sense, we can really show we're better than them. I'm sure no one is counting, but our consciences remain clear.

[hyphenate]

15. Thanks

been rec'ed and unrec'd so many times, it's head whirling!

I think this is one of those touchy topics on which people are quite divided. Oh well.

[Remember Me]

4. There's a very practical reason, too

I agree with what's said, but for anyone who doesn't quite, think of this.

Let's say someone who is an enemy of the Left in general, DU and/or OWS in particular takes it upon him or herself to make some very bad moves against the individual(s) so identified here. The reputation of those who revealed the information -- of DU in particular -- would be very damaged. The entire Occupy movement could be damaged enough to end it. Etc.

It's just the wrong thing to do.

[hyphenate]

18. Pretty much it.

Regrets are permanent. We can't undo something after it's happened. Steering clear of potential harm in the first place is a much better solution.

[Pab Sungenis]

5. I'm sorry. I disagree.

Too often people, especially right wingers, become thugs because they can hide behind anonymity. The hooded midnight riders of the Klan and similar groups are the quintessential examples.

These thugs -- no, these terrorists -- need to be exposed.

[EFerrari]

6. I also disagree. If Skinner doesn't want me to post dox here,

that's fine but I am distributing them and will continue to do that elsewhere.

[hyphenate]

21. I have no problem

with putting out emails, depositions, documents, or anything else with a person. If it's WikiLeaks, or any other group that is pushing for such to be released. That's not what I'm talking about.

As above and below, my problem, my unease, is putting out a person's home phone number and address. If those things have been published elsewhere, that's fine. But I think that even people with whom we strongly disagree have the right to their privacy, especially when there are children or elderly people that need to be protected.

We have to prove that we respect that element of our law. When someone is harmed or killed because of that privacy being made public, it's going to be too late to have regrets.

[EFerrari]

25. The real threat to whatever poor family is involved with this man is himself.

You hang out with armed, violent gang members, their activity spills over into family life. Logical consequence.

[OnyxCollie]

46. Damn straight.

If the President's defenders can use that argument to excuse the killing of Anwar Al-Awlaki's son, so can we.

[jeff47]

9. That would be true if only their identity was revealed.

The guy can't exactly hide when his name and face are out there, and his bosses are getting raked over the coals for his actions.

You don't need to release his home address and phone number to prevent him from being a modern-day midnight rider. Releasing his home address is an act of intimidation. It is an implicit threat against his family. It is never the right thing to do.

[EFerrari]

12. Releasing his home address also identifies him to his neighbors.

Maybe they want to take their kids in the house when he's around. And surely a big brave cop that attacks teenagers with chemical weapons can protect his own family.

[jeff47]

35. His neighbors already knew his name, and most likely his employer. They don't need his address

Nor do they need people attacking their neighbor's house. Or even better, getting the address wrong and attacking their house.

[hyphenate]

22. Thank you

for getting it. :)

[EFerrari]

26. Oh, I get it. I just think you're flat out wrong.

There are not two Americas where my kids can be attacked with chemicals and sent to the hospital by this fucking idiot and where I have to tiptoe around his hypothetical, maybe mythical, kids over some imagined harm that might come to them from peaceful protesters. Nope. That's a crock.

[Pab Sungenis]

29. And point blank spraying burning chemicals in the face of a kneeling protestor

ISN'T an act of intimidation?

Fuck him. Let him reap what he sowed.

[jeff47]

36. So what he did was perfectly fine then?

If it's acceptable to do to him, then it's acceptable to do to those students.

The revulsion people have to what he did is it is not acceptable behavior to be done to ANYONE. The minute you go "eye-for-an-eye" on his ass, you validate his behavior as being "OK" in some situations.

He's going to have a very shitty life from now on. He will suffer more from losing his job and becoming a pariah than he could possibly suffer from pepper spray.

[hyphenate]

53. Agreed. Thanks! eom

[apocalypsehow]

68. Except it isn't "HIM" that is the focus of discussion here: it is the innocents in his household who

might possibly be harmed by the posting of his private information on the internet. And even if it was only about "him," vigilante justice is not a progressive value, FYI. Due process of law and legal processes are involved in prosecuting wrongdoing done by persons in a civilized society, even persons who generate intense loathing on the part of the many thanks to evidence (visual or otherwise) that seems to indicate irrefutable evidence of guilt.

Now, quick: run right on over to "ATA" and make a claim about how put upon you've been made to feel reading my contrary reply to yours on a discussion board. You seem to do your best work over there, after all, working the refs, as opposed to actually, like, discussing things and making cogent arguments on a discussion board....

[hyphenate]

19. Exposing them is one thing

I'm not asking that. Publicize them all you want! Put their names out there, making sure it's spelled correctly, making sure their work numbers, their bosses' names and work numbers are available to everyone! That stuff is important. All I'm asking is that their home phone number and addresses remain private. Legally, IMO, these things shouldn't be published anyhow.

We all know there are nuts out there, on both sides, who use that kind of information to harm others. A maniac isn't going to stop from hurting someone even if it's a child or someone else in the family. THAT's all I'm saying.

[Pab Sungenis]

31. "A maniac isn't going to stop from hurting someone"

You're right. And THIS man IS a maniac. And he DID hurt people. No way he should be allowed to avoid the costs.

[DaveJ]

7. Plus, it won't do any good. Those fascists will have long prosperous lives regardless.

Posting personal info is futile anyway, they'll just change their phone numbers, and move into bigger homes, with the money they earn from being king fascists.

Their kids are already screwed, you can't do any worse than what their parents already do to them. Their kids can either follow in their footsteps, or try to live normal yet broken lives.

[Hutzpa]

10. Unrecc

because I disagree with everything you've said, this type of self righteous threads lambasting
people for taking action toward an individual that shows no remorse in his action is in itself
imo a support in condoning that same action.

[Ganja Ninja]

11. That cop deserved having his private info posted.

Sorry but that "we're suppose to be better" shit rings hollow. We have to use the non violent weapons available to us. I don't care what happens to him just like he didn't care for the people he sprayed like bugs. I'm tired of being nice to scumbags. I'm tired of people accepting this abuse as if it's just our lot in life. Fuck him and anyone else that pulls this kind of shit.

[jeff47]

37. So you'd prefer to be a scumbag too?

He behaved like a scumbag. In response, you want to behave like a scumbag too.

Yes, the high road is harder to travel and lacks the visceral joy of hoisting someone on their own petard. But I assure you getting this guy fired, destroying his livelihood and making him a pariah will cause him far more pain than pepper spray ever could.

[dionysus]

41. when the anti abortion whackos spread around info like that, sometimes their target gets shot. nt

[Logical]

13. How clueless are you? Do you realize....

All the OWS arrests are public information afnd their names are public! So you think this man who is a criminal should not be identified??? You are not a logical person!

[hyphenate]

24. Well, I'm afraid you didn't read exactly ehat I wrote

in my OP. The point is not whether that person's name should be publicized--YES, it should be! It should be all over the place. And spread the names of his/her bosses far and wide! Make sure their phone numbers for work, and their bosses' are also spread wide. I have no problem with that.

I am objecting to the private home phone number and address only. because we don't know what conditions might exist--are there young children or elderly persons living at home that could be hurt if some moron got the idea in his head to terrorize them? We don't know, and I think we should err on the side of caution regardless.

[dionysus]

42. name? sure. home address, no. when the anti abortion ppl did that, it got people shot.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lint Head]

14. Publicly published phone numbers and addresses are not private. They are public.

You will always have people that will not use decorum or diplomacy. If a bully and thug is going to publicly attack people for no reason maybe they should get an unpublished private phone number. These types of thugs are also putting their families at risk by committing public acts of cruelty on others. It's not fair or right that an idiot should call and harass someone's family simply because they publicly pepper spray or beat someone. Better yet they shouldn't pepper spray or beat people in the first place.

[bemildred]

54. +1.

Good point. The premise is false.

[Broderick]

16. I have been a bit uncomfortable myself

I understand anger, but if something happens to this person I worry about liability tied right back here.

[hyphenate]

44. There are many problems

with trying to exact revenge in one way or another. It's always been that way if you think about it.

[ohheckyeah]

20. " These people, right or wrong, should not have to worry about their family members being hurt. "

Parents shouldn't have to worry about their kids getting pepper sprayed at college, either, but it seems they have to start worrying about it.

[jeff47]

38. Increasing the number of parents that have to worry about it doesn't help solve that problem (nt)

[ohheckyeah]

47. No, it doesn't and I didn't say it did...

but using that emotional argument doesn't work for me as the parents of the students shouldn't have to worry either. I could give a shit about that cop having to worry.

I actually don't know how I feel about the release of his information...no it's not fair to his family (if he has one) but at the same time nobody seems to be holding these cops really accountable. So, I find myself on the fence about it and that's not a usual position for me.

[hyphenate]

55. I understand, I really do

And I've gotten so riled up about actions from the right more times than I care to remember. I am not a good enemy to have! I can create very creative ways in my imagination to punish evildoers, and letting my imagination run wild when I do so.

But that's not the way I operate in real life. In real life, I would never harm a real person, no matter who they are. There were times, though, I admit, when I might have done so, but I never did.

And while I know people want an avenue to get their frustrations out, in real life, we can't use bodily harm as a way to change a situation--we need to find justice whereever we can.

We already know that there are whackoes out there, and while we would all like to believe they're on the right, those unstable people come in ALL shapes. And if we had anything to do with it, even in the most abstract sense, we are as culpable as anyone who has done the harm.

I have a great deal of entertainment with creating punishments in my imagination, but that's the extent of it. It keeps me from feeling murderous in real life, keeps me out of jail, and keeps someone from having any true control over me.

[ohheckyeah]

64. I just don't know.

If fearing having one's information splashed all over the internet will keep some cops from acting like thugs and hurting more kids then I think I can live with it.

At some point the cops have to be held accountable in some way.

[Poll_Blind]

23. This needs to be posted in the ATA forums and be a conversation with Skinner.

I don't think this is going to help anything being posted here.

He makes the rules and defines what is acceptable.

PB

[TBF]

33. Maybe both places?

I think prior to reading the OPs post I wouldn't have given a second thought re posting personal info, but now I'm unsure and want to think about it some more. But while Skinner of course would be the ultimate authority on what would be posted on this site, I'm just glad she shared it out here too because it may change someone's perspective.

:shrug:

[JuniperLea]

27. This info was already out there in the public eye...

If people don't want it out there, they should keep it to themselves... OR refrain from doing heinous things in public that might cause others to find and post the information all over hell and back.

I'm sorry... I worry more about all the college kids who now have to worry about being pepper sprayed while exercising their civil rights.

[EFerrari]

28. The time to fear retribution is BEFORE you viciously attack the public

not after.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TBF]

32. Very thoughtful post, Hyphenate.

I'm not sure where I come down on this, I want to think about it some more. But I did K&R your post because I think it is a good topic and you made excellent points.

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. Sorry. I'm NOT better than that. n/t

[MH1]

39. Funny, I went into the detailed rules, and it turns out you are right.

Do not post harassment or threats. Do not advocate harm or violence.
The following are not permitted: Any type of threat against any person, either explicit or implied. Any action intended to harm another person -- physically, mentally, emotionally, or otherwise. A sustained or organized effort to demean, belittle, bully, or ostracize another person. Digging up or posting personal information about any private individual, on DU or elsewhere. Stalking someone across discussion threads or forums. Advocating harm toward any public figure. Advocating violent overthrow of government or violent social change.

[Zywiec]

40. +1 Some rules aren't enforced apparently. n/t

[TorchTheWitch]

48. they have to be alerted on

apparently, no one did.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hyphenate]

43. Thanks for checking

I appreciate it. I am glad that it's there. It's something I think the DU Admins were genuinely concerned about.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[astral]

45. I have mixed feelings on this.

First, yes, the guy's family shouldn't be targeted for what he did. the repercussions of what he did should be real loud and real hard. Perhaps too hard? I think that being a police officer is a position that is fairly public, everyone knows the cops' names in their neighborhood and anyone can find the contact information if they try.

Perhaps allowing the photograph of his face, first and last name, and the town he lives in is is not pushing over the edge but the rest is?

Is spewing on well-known public figures as is done in other threads any different behavior than this? Are we all "better than" THAT?

I agree that the OP has a POINT, for SURE, but I am not sure I agree that there is no place that posting personal information about someone whose personal information is easily attainable due to having been the focus of the media through having done a very barbaric act, I am not sure.

Of course, if DU has rules on this situation and they apply here, well we go by those rules. (What does Skinner think of this one?)
_________________________________________
Edit only to say, uh, I read the rest of the words after i posted this : )

[eridani]

49. Agreed--there are far too many unstable assholes running around n/t

[themadstork]

50. Publish his name far and wide

And once you have his name his location is easy enough to find for anyone that wants to, so I don't really see what practical difference this makes. But if it makes you feel better than the common muck of humanity, feel free, I guess.

[snooper2]

51. It's not going to stop so you are basically practicing an exercise in futillity

[bemildred]

52. "We" didn't do anything, so I don't see why "we" need to be chastised about it.

The cop has no more expectation of privacy than anybody else. and I KNOW my information is all over the web and government computers, and that is how it is with cops too. If he didn't want his info bandied about, he should have been more circumspect in his behavior.

[bemildred]

56. I thought the cops were supposed to be better than us, not the other way around. nt

[TNLib]

58. Then there will be no consequence for his actions.

It is doubtful that the city will reprimand this person and I see publicly outing him is away that a community can seek some sort of justice for his crime.

Yes I think we have come to this point that as a collective we have to find ways to seek justice that are still within legal limits.

[RagAss]

59. Yes....Sure..Let's wait until they take flame throwers to our asses before we identify them.

[NYC_SKP]

62. ~~~~I would like for people to consider the fact that a bad cop might have innocent kids, a wife....

Others who, presumably, are already suffering to some degree for being in the same household as the brutal criminal.

We do not want to help anyone end up making life sadder for them.



:patriot:

[jberryhill]

63. Sucks to be them, then, doesn't it - that's the sentiment here at DU

[ohheckyeah]

65. And if the cops aren't somehow

held accountable aren't we making life sadder and harder for the next kid abused? Are the hypothetical sad wife and kids more important than the protesters? The 80 something year old woman in the hospital after being pepper sprayed in the face....isn't she worth something?

I struggle with this issue because there are a lot of people involved. What serves the greater good and the most people?

[apocalypsehow]

67. What serves the greater good and the most people is holding individuals accountable for their

actions under due process of law, not putting their spouses and kids lives in danger by posting private info about where they live on the internet.

[ohheckyeah]

69. Due process hasn't been doing a very good job.

And you don't know that it puts the spouses and kids in danger. Does he even have a spouse and kids?

[apocalypsehow]

66. Any poster who disagrees with the premise of your OP should put their money where their mouths are,

and post their own

1. Real (full) name.

2. Their current address.

3. Names of their spouse, kids, and current employer.

4. Their home phone number.

5. Anything that could be construed as even remotely criminal, offensive, or otherwise angering to a significant subset of the American population that they have ever done in their lives.

They will not, of course, because "_______________________________________"<--------(FILL IN THE 'THAT'S DIFFERENT' BLANK LINE HERE)