I keep managing to annoy some of my less than left leaning relatives. This is a transcript of tonight's Facebook conversation. The cousin in question's father already had defriended me almost a year ago because of my views...he has yet to speak to me since. Names have been scrubbed to protect all involved... (On a side, note, yes my original status update was a bit on the inflammatory side, but never-the-less, I feel is a valid opinion and I personally like to incite some discussion...it helps me keep sharp...at least I think so.)
Me (status update)
So while attempting to keep millions of Americans from affordable and accessible health care, only 8 of those voting to repeal the relatively weak steps taken last year have refused the free health care provided to congress. One even made a stink because his health care is delayed about 4 weeks. Hypocritical much? Oh wait, they're Republicans, hypocritical is part of the definition....
7:51pm (2 hours ago)
Counsin's Husband (from Poland)
Sorry {Me}, hypocritical is part of the definition of most politicians, left or right.
8:05pm (about an hour ago)
Me
I'll agree with that, however, and it could be that I actually care about people in general, the republicans seem to be especially adept at being hypocritical, mean, uncaring, and violent...
8:09pm (about an hour ago)
Cousin's Husband
Hmm, do you really think republicans simply don't want people to get health insurance? Whose interest are they protecting by trying to repeal this law then? (Certainly not that of the health insurance companies, right?) I'm honestly wondering, why do you think they are against it? You probably know a lot more on this issue, I don't have time to follow politics so closely these days..
8:29pm (about an hour ago)
Cousin
I am not so well versed on this issue, but I have to say I doubt that republics are the evil brutal people that you make them out to be. I think your speech is just as inflammatory as the many Tea Party speeches out there. I think if you lo...ok at Democrats as heroes and Republicans as villains you will not see clearly on any issue. I am thinking that the government is going bankrupt now and I am not sure forcing millions of Americans onto a health care system is the answer. I think there needs to be reform....but I am not sure who and which political party is the best to do it. I hear bad about from both sides
8:41pm (about an hour ago)
Friend 1
{Cousin} the democrats already did reform.
8:50pm (about an hour ago)
Cousin
I am saying, I don't think it was the best way for the country to go...It wasnt the right reform in my opinion, or the only one out there. Anyone could do reform, but would it be the right way for the country to go is another matter.
8:53pm (about an hour ago)
Friend 2
Umm, the CBO report says that health care will SAVE the country 1.3 TRILLION dollars over the next twenty years. In fact, the repubs exempted repealing the health care bill from their own self-stated rule that all new legislation has to save the country money. The house effectively voted to INCREASE the deficit by 1.3 trillion over the next 20 years by voting to repeal health care.
9:04pm (58 minutes ago)
Cousin
Hmmm, I kind doubt that- as admit as you feel about it, I doubt it.I would just like to go back to my original point I don't think you can see either party in black and white terms. I don't think you can look at all democrats as saviors and... all republicans as villains. I am not republican- though I am sure some people commenting may see me differently, nor am I a democrat. I think both parties have failures and neither party represent the true interests of the people. Hyperbolic speech is just as destructive coming from extreme conservatives as extreme liberals that was really the underlying point of my comment
9:15pm (47 minutes ago)
Me
Thanks {Friend 2}. I was going to point that out myself. I also would like to, in the made up word of the "illustrious" face of the the current direction of the republican party, "refudiate" the idea that my comment about republicans being hypocritical, mean, uncaring, and violent is in any way more or even equal to the vitriolic rhetoric that spews from the republican party. "Second amendment remedies", "Don't retreat, reload", "Take them out"...I could go on and on. In my mind, if it smells like poo, looks like poo, chances are it is poo. When the republicans actually do something to help someone other than themselves, their wallets, or the wallets of their buddies, then I'll actually consider giving them the slightest modicum of doubt.
On another point, you immediately assume that I am a democrat. I don't consider myself one and in fact disagree with many of the "compromises" that the democrats have made. I want what is best for all people. I want to eliminate the gaps in poverty, health care, violence, and reverse the horrible trends in education...at least the Democratic party professes to work toward these goals...something the Republicans haven't. So will I call out the republicans and tend to side more often with Democrats? You betcha.
9:17pm (45 minutes ago)
Me
{Cousin}, there is nothing wrong with hyperbole. It is the context in which it is used and the connotations that it puts forth. Suggesting or alluding to violence is far different than using hyperbole to make your point or point out the foibles of your opponent.
9:19pm (43 minutes ago)
Cousin's Husband
Oh, please.... Since when government estimates turn out to be true? Saying that they voted to increase the deficit is even more amusing than saying that they are simply mean, uncaring and violent. What else? I still try to understand - what do you think is their motivation? Pure evil? Besides, do you really like the government to tell you what to do with your money? Have you ever worked for government? Have you seen how public money is treated? Have you ever lived in a country with public health care? Do you really understand the long-term consequences of this change? I've seen it and trust me, public health-care is a myth.
9:19pm (43 minutes ago)
Cousin
Well I guess I was hoping from more class from both sides, especially in loo of what happened in Tuscon. I hate Palin and I think she is definitely insane, so I wouldn't even bother quoting her, or attributing her quotes to the entire Republican party. It seems childish to call the entire Republic party uncaring, mean, violent. And I really, REALLY dont think that the democrats have anything else on their agenda besides re-election, money and status regardless of what is said during a campaign speech or quoted from an internet blog. I have worked for government, non profit, my parents worked for State and Federal government and the money is wasted. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid- though good ideas, are falling apart. I don't think this new health care plan will be the answer to all our woes. Maybe I am too moderate, but I think it is more productive than selling an entire political party short, or glorifying a program that is untested and that 48% of the country is against
9:34pm (28 minutes ago)
Me
Yes {Cousin's Husband}, I DO work for the government. And frankly you're right there is a lot waste. But take a short look at when that waste was at its highest...you might be surprised to find that our deficit consistently goes up in HUGE amounts when the republicans are in charge and get their way. So to answer one more of the questions, yes I have seen how public money is treated...by one of the largest wasters who constantly cry foul when their budget is even considered for cutting...and the ones who cry the loudest are the republicans. Yes, I'm talking about the military.
As for the government telling me what to do with my money, they aren't telling me what do do with the health care bill. That's like suggesting that your employer is telling you what to do with your money by offing a more affordable health plan than if you went at it on your own. Do you feel like your employer is telling you how to spend your money? Frankly I see paying taxes as part of the dues for living in a society that is free and one that likes to consider itself the shining example of how to be. Unfortunately, our health care system is on par with those of developing countries, not the industrialized ones. All one has to do is look at countries like Finland, England, Germany, hell even Canada, and you see that the supposed ills of having a national health care system are a bunch of bogus BS made up to frighten those who don't bother to actually do some research. What is their motive you ask? Fear. Plain and simple. By making dumb people afraid, the republicans take more and more power. Look at what happened after 9/11. Republicans used the fear to shred the bill of rights and engage the US in an illegal, expensive, and endless war. Who profited from such a war...not shockingly the companies run by republican cronies...i.e. Halibuton. A few billion dollars in your pocket, a populous, potentially so sick they are unable to do anything about it, and unlimited power? Sounds like a plausible reason that the republican might be working to undo anything that helps to bring health and equality to ALL Americans
9:36pm (26 minutes ago)
Me
{Cousin}, look at those poll numbers of against the health plan again. It is closer to about 30% that are completely against a national health care plan...the rest who are against the bill are people like myself who hate it because it doesn't go far enough. It should have had, at the very least, a public option. But again, to appease republicans, who still voted against it, those types of plans were removed, and we were left with a plan that doesn't do nearly enough, but is still made out to be the end of civilization by republicans.
Look, when I find republicans that work to help society as a whole rather than themselves, the rich, or their buddies, I will support them. I voted for McCain for senator when I was in Arizona. I believed him to be a strong voice for all people. Then he changed his views to try to appease the "mainstream" republicans. Now he is about as appealing as sour milk...he changed his stances to get reelected and I have absolutely no respect for people that kind of hypocrisy.
9:45pm (17 minutes ago)
Cousin
Well {Me}, I am going to say we agree to disagree :-) My husband is from a country with public health care, his brother and our sister in law work for the public health care and it is not the wonderful zion that you seem to think it is. In my opinion, and it is just my opinion, you deamonize Republicans too much. I have not read anything against democrats in your posts, and have consistently seen negative slogans directed towards Republicans. So I just don't see that you at all attempting to be unbiased, or see both sides. That was really my main point after all.
9:45pm (16 minutes ago)
Cousin
I personally don't want it to go farther. Not because I hate my fellow Americans, or am mean or uncaring, but because- regardless of what is out there- I don't think we can pay for it. And I don't want to be in a country that totes "freedom" without giving you the freedom to opt out and not be dictated to about how to spend my money.
9:49pm (13 minutes ago)
Me
You're right. I haven't, for the most part, attacked Democrats. Given that I agree more with their stances and the work they are doing, why would I give anyone a reason to disagree with them? My preference is to move people toward a democratic society that services even the most disadvantaged American. When I see republicans attempt to accomplish that goal and Democrats stand in the way of that goal, I'll put forth negative comments toward the Democrats and laud the work of republicans. I don't expect that day will be anytime soon given the history of the republican party...
9:51pm (11 minutes ago)
Cousin
I disagree with you :-) But okay. I think even that was inflammatory :-) but that is just me.
9:52pm (10 minutes ago)
Me
{Cousin}, please take another look at the health care bill. For all its faults, there is nothing in there that says you can't opt out. There is nothing in there that says you have to spend your money a certain way. Every bipartisan group that monitors budgets says that this bill will end up SAVING the government and Americans money and the cost of repealing the bill will be astronomical. Fiscally, if that is the only judge of merit you wish to make, says that this is the way to go.
As for freedom, if you really want the freedom you are talking about, why is there a war on drugs? If Joe Public wants to overdose, isn't that his choice? Why should I have to pay for the legal cost of prosecuting him, treating his addiction, incarcerating him, and "rehabilitating" him? The analogy is about the same. You are suggesting that you shouldn't have to pay for someone else to get health care and that the government shouldn't tell anyone how to spend their money. You pay for the health care of your representatives, the prisoners in your state, etc. Why not just let them have as many drugs as they want and just OD on their own and rot in their house? All the answers to why we shouldn't allow that to happen are the same answers as to why we shouldn't allow people to wander around the streets sick or die alone in their house because they can't afford health care.See More
10:02pm (5 seconds ago)
I'm sure I'll get some more replies, but I though others might enjoy some of the debate...
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