Well I most share as an op. re OWS.

[nadinbrzezinski]

I have noticed a very familiar pattern from the people who are naysayers. I might add naysayers have been around every step of Te way in us history starting in colonial times. But now I am seeing lines harden, and a few awfully familiar uses of language.

" If you disturb people while shopping you will not gain any allies." This was almost word for word to the arguments against strikes oh back in the day, strikes led to unions too.

"You are adding work to wage slaves." Familiar to my ear, replace wage slaves with workers

In a sense it tells my ears OWS is having a real effect and the usual suspects are pulling put the propaganda...and whether you watch tv or not, this is endemic.

But heart be still, it usually takes longer.

[villager]

1. The silent naysayers have already been by to unrec, quite predictably

Canned talking points and twitchy unrec fingers seem to be their order of the day(s)...

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Bless their hearts.

Some of us, they really don't realize this, could care less.

[Obamanaut]

19. "could care less" suggests there is still some interest remaining, whereas "couldn't care less"

indicates the bottom has been reached and interest in whatever it is has completely gone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Ah yes grammar nanny

I love you man, I really do. Every time you engage in this insanity you kick it.

:hi:

And no, I don't give a shit about unreccers. Bless their little hearts.

Which I know includes you.

Thanks for the kick

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

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[Obamanaut]

25. Unrec for complaint about unrec. nt

[villager]

27. oh yeah, we've seen that tired line before -- though it provides another chance for a kick!

:thumbsup:

[Obamanaut]

30. In reality it is not a "chance for a kick" but an actual kick. nt

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[villager]

38. Better still!

;-)

[cherokeeprogressive]

31. -1

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. See you are predictable

THANKS for the kick

:hi:

[spanone]

3. k&r...

[Balbus]

4. Twist it any way you want, but it's still idiotic.

I'm so glad these fuckers are on their way out and are now nothing but punch-lines. Fucking tools.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Another I could have lifted from the 1880s

Thanks for the example.

After Haymarket they were dead I tell you. Oh and yes there were zero strikes after it. :sarcasm:

[The Traveler]

6. On their way out?

I see no evidence that this movement is shrinking. Difficult to predict where this leads, but there has been a shift in the social and political landscape. Many will try to ignore it, of course. Good luck with that.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

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[theophilus]

16. Why, exactly, are you here? n/t

[Lorien]

41. Just like those pesky American fuckers who dared stand up to King George, eh?

You are on the wrong side of history. The movement has just begun, and they are fighting for rights that are just as important, if not more so, than those that our ancestors fought for.

[socialist_n_TN]

7. As a Red, I've seen another meme popping up recently

That is of the inevitability of the capitalist system. It goes something like: "You might as well not even DREAM of any alternative economic system because it ain't happening. The USA won't EVER give up capitalism." Then there's the fear based version: "Even if you somehow managed to get socialism instituted in this country, you would be guaranteeing a civil war. There are millions of people who would take up arms to fight it." So in one instance, don't even imagine anything other than what we have. And in the other instance, it would cause widespread violence.

As to the first, NOTHING ever gets changed without putting it out there first. If it's not in mind, then it DEFINITELY won't happen. As to the second, IF socialism was instituted in the USA, it wouldn't happen unless there were MORE millions that wanted it and would defend it. As to the civil war aspect, that's going to happen either way I'm afraid. If the capitalists don't give up at least SOME power, violence is inevitable anyway. And I don't think they will give up ANY power until they're forced to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Well the red baiting has increased

They even trot it out on the tv every so often. Since a whole generation grew not even knowing what it was, it's having some issues...sticking.

I went for the far more obvious ones.

:hi:

[socialist_n_TN]

9. You're right, it IS having trouble sticking

and that's a good thing. :) One of the few benefits to the fall of Stalinism. A large percentage doesn't remember Marxism being conflated with Stalinism, so they read Marxism on it's own merits without the propaganda baggage.

That's also why capitalism is losing it's popularity amongst the masses. What we've got that called capitalism (yes my dear, our old argument :)) isn't very appealing to anybody but the 1%.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. It is also a reaction to this new form of mercantilism

Friedman calls globalization. It's not pretty once you look under the hood.

And yes old argument since both are bookends. I predict the return of classical economics if we survive this.

[Fire Walk With Me]

12. And also the end of classical politics. The GAs are messy and are still evolving

but they clearly, clearly, and breathlessly easily replace the system of (corrupt) elected representatives. WE are the leaders. WE are the ones we've been awaiting.

[socialist_n_TN]

13. End of classical politics maybe, but it's not a new thing

It's a LOT like the soviets in Russia in the early part of the 20th Century.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Even older, replace Ostraca with hand signals.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Direct democracy is not workable in large populations.

That is just a reality. In a science fiction setting it could happen if everybody had wireless devices to vote. But currently it is not workable.

It will put an end to this corrupted way, but we will still have to elect reps...not leaders, which is part of the problem. People have turned to think of the president, for example, as a leader...he is not.

This also means hopefully people will remain engaged. It is that lack of engagement that allows for the present corruption.

[socialist_n_TN]

17. There's nothing wrong with delegates........

as long as they're immediately recallable if they don't vote the way the Assemblies want them to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. The constitution needs a few changes

But I don't expect to see a supreme soviet.

That's just me.

[FirstLight]

39. agreed!

I have said this since i was in high school civics...that democracy truly only works on a small scale. I don;t know how that looks in the long run, but the system we have is "too big to WORK!"

Thanks for the op, too :hi:

[unionworks]

37. Let's hope so n/t

[Odin2005]

22. I was born in '86 and have no memories of the USSR.

My generation just rolls our eyes when some Boomer or Xer starts ranting on about "Commies".

[Norrin Radd]

42. I was born in '73. Making anything Russian forbidden fruit backfired.

The Russian language and lit classes in the early 90's in colleges were packed.

[Odin2005]

21. I call them the "End-of-Historyists" after Fukuyama's book of the same name.

The folks that think Capitalism "Liberal Democracy" is inevitable and good and that anyone who disagrees is a moron that needs to get with the program.

Something I have noticed is that a person of a particular level of conceptual-ethical development sees the advance to the next level as a regression to the previous level.

See here for context: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics

A "Classical Liberal" individualist, which the model at the link calls the "Orange" meme level, IMO sees advancement to the Egalitarian "Green" meme level as a regression back to the authoritarian "Blue" meme level. Hence them mixing up modern socialists and other left-wing thinking with Stalinism.

[Kaleko]

40. Four thumbs up for mentioning Spiral Dynamics.

What you're talking about, confusing the advance to the next higher level with a regression to a lower level of development, is called the pre- trans- fallacy. People at a lower level (such as Orange) literally cannot see what is blatantly obvious to the people already established in a more inclusive world view (such as Green and beyond).

Fascinating stuff, Spiral Dynamics. I've studied it to some degree, but the learning never ends in this or any other field that interests me.

[Odin2005]

43. No problem!!!

[TBF]

23. I just responded to that meme in another thread -

must be on the right-wing list this week.

[nc4bo]

28. ...

What I have trouble understanding is why do we hear so much of it from Democrats on a Democratic messageboard?

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm.......

Edit for spelling.

[AntiFascist]

44. Pointing out the predominance of capitalism is reality-based....

my suggestion is to continue with the meme that we already have socialism in the form of social programs, and that most of these are good. Anyone arguing for cutting SS and Medicare basically want to kill off the (not so financially independent) elderly. Also, I think its particularly important to point out that the immense level of funding given to the military is an example of National Socialism (not so good when most of the money goes to those feeding off of the system rather than the troops putting their lives on the line, and the veterens who deserve support).

[blondie58]

29. great post

And many interesting replies!

[unionworks]

33. great post

Thank you, my friend! :toast:

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Oh you welcome

reading Gompers tends to get the ear to a certain point for very familiar themes, echoes as I call them

[freshwest]

36. K & R